Ukraine

All things relating to Ukraine.

war ____ politics ___ current news

 

"Arrest in Tucker Carlson Assassination Try: Ukrainian Intelligence Hired Russian ‘Hitman’ to Murder Journalist"

https://www.theinteldrop.org/2024/0...sted-over-terror-plot-to-kill-tucker-carlson/

Begin quote

Russian counter-terrorist unit prevented a terrorist attack on Tucker Carlson, planned by the Main Directorate of Intelligence of Ukraine. One man was arrested on terrorism charges in Moscow.

Russian counter-terrorist forces have foiled a terrorist attack in Moscow, which had been planned, directed and financed by the Main Directorate of Intelligence of Ukraine. The terrorist cell was operated by “Ukrainian handlers” in order to carry out an attack on American journalist Tucker Carlson during his visit to Moscow. The terrorist confessed to the plot and gave details on it. He was provided with IED (improvised explosive device) for the attack. The plan was to target Tucker Carlson’s vehicle in the Four Seasons hotel underground parking lot.

Tucker Carlson visited Moscow in the beginning of February to interview Russian president Putin. Ex-Fox News host said that the Biden administration had illegally spied on his text messages and leaked them to the media in order to prevent him from interviewing Putin three years ago. He also said that he was “pretty certain” that they did the same thing last month, but he decided to go to Moscow anyway.

End quote

 

Wow!!! So someone in this system is desperate to prevent Tucker Carlson from interviewing Vladimir Putin......

They are desperate to control news and information. They need desperately to rig the news and information and prevent any dissenting or other informative views.

If they..or someone would rig this interview....in desperation....

Would they rig a coming election???? Am I supposed to think this far outside the box...without permission of my betters???

Are the Ishmaelites that desperate???


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Now being reported Ukraine has downed thirteen
Russian War Birds in a two week period . This is a change , something is different . We can expect Russia to respond also with a change , something different .

 

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-losses-ukraine-troops-tanks-1875273 Russia's depletion problems . At some point either another country will step in to provide troops on the ground for Russia , or Russia will utilize their Nukes . --- To look at the other side of the coin , Ukraine is also running out of boots on the ground personnel . Regardless as to whether arm chair Generals deem it so or not - at least two N.A.T.O. countries have recently announced to the public sending boots on the ground personnel into the war zone is definitely on the table " France and Canada " . This escalation by world N.A.T.O. leaders is not something they just decided to make up for a photo op ., but was conjured up during behind door meetings .

 

When you have two freight train on the same track heading toward each other , full throttle and neither is trying to put on the brakes , at some point something very bad will happen .

 

Interesting. Have you seen the interview?

 

Yeah, look I'm not sure about what's been released to the press. I suspect a lot of it is war propaganda.

 

Geez mate, sometimes you're like a frog in a sock. This type of thing has been going on forever.

 

Is that right? Training Ukrainian military in the UK. Wow. Interesting.

 

That's how much I knew. They do say ignorance is bliss. Until it gets you killed I guess.

 

I haven't been watching much in the news for the past few months, to be honest. It all gets a bit dramatic and depressing. I've got enough to worry about in my own back yard, without getting caught up on the *** (fill in the blanks as you see fit) news on the world stage.

 

My report - is The Russian advancement has now stalled . The reason given Something " or someone " has blown Russian war birds out of the skies . The last tally I got was " 17 Russian war craft shot down " over about a three week period . Russia can no longer provide air support for their ground troops , especially in the " Advika " area . Sure they likely have a few more war birds , but Russia knows if they send them up , something or "someone " is waiting to shoot them down . -- A strategic military fact that some may not know , the advancing troops trying to take ground from an defender has a much higher causality rate . Thus the huge Russian foot soldier loss over the last few weeks . One report came out though I can not verify its truthfulness is the ratio has been 30 Russians killed over the last few weeks for ever one Ukrainian / mercenary killed . -- Unlike Las-Vegas what happens in Ukraine won't stay in Ukraine . " prepare " .

 

The Ukrainians are down to using Mercenaries???? Wow!!!!

Who is paying for these Mercenaries??? Not the Ukrainians I'm sure..


Mu non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

Want to know about what is actually happening in the Ukraine and lead-ups to a potential WW3, then watch this video, the entire video. This general knows the inside stories.

It's time for the U.S. to back off. The puppet-masters behind brain-dead biden want the US to be crushed. Sure, biden and his doper son made millions off of Ukraine. The Ukraine is for sale by the monsters running the current regime in Ukraine.

If the UK and Europe want to commit suicide, then OK. NATO is dead. Why support any of the socialists across the Atlantic?! They have no respect for America. If Russia eats them, well, sh## happens. There are those in the UK that believe that England could have won WW2 without the USA. OK. Let them save themselves from what's coming next.

Again, I'll hold my nose and vote for this Trump fellow. Seems maybe that he actually does wish to put America first. It's about d###ed time that some American leader did! My ancestors didn't step on the necks of Chinese, blacks, nor the civilized tribes of the original people. We minded our own business.

"Douglas Macgregor: Ukraine is DESTROYED, Texas Border is NEXT TARGET!"

 

I like that fellow..Colonel Douglas McGreggor....and his videos.

Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Why do assaulting troops almost always suffer much higher casualties than defending troops? Cancel that. I think I understand. How much longer do you think this conflict will continue?

 

The term now being used for the mercenaries fighting for Ukraine " Sheep dips " . This terminology comes from the fact , they are being discharged from N.A.T.O. militaries , given a new set of clothes and deemed private mercenaries .

 

Wow. A warship sunk by drones. Hasn't war changed! They must really pack a punch.

 

"How much longer do you think this conflict will continue?"

If countries keep backing-up Ukraine, the war could last into 2025 with unimaginable numbers of casualties.

If Ukraine doesn't get serious help, Russia will utterly cripple what's left of the Ukraine military by summer's end.

If Donald Trump wins the presidency, then the war will be over early 2025 unless biden's puppeteers pull a WWIII before Trump gets sworn in.

I see the current regime occupying the White House panicking and pulling some mega-stupid action. With their exceedingly poor IQ levels or under world globalist orders, the White House crew could get millions killed ... or hundreds of millions killed ... or billions.

Too, America is going to get hit by terrorists this year and in 2025 also. The biden handlers could use this to declare martial law and divert more tax dollars to Eastern European war coffers. There are now thousands upon thousands of Chinese men of military age now positioned here illegally. With the intel these communist Chinese invaders are gathering, hacking into America's infrastructure will now have more catastrophic results (one division of the Chinese military is dedicated to computer hacking, period; this is all they work on). The bidens sold-out America to the Chinese, the globalist elites, and the petty little government monstrosity infecting Kiev, Ukraine.

-----------------------------------

 

Verily agree Olde Geezer.....China is a Deep State Creation as was Japan between WW1 and WW2....but I believe China is turning against their handlers ...as did Japan by WW2.....and seeking to go independent.

Once again...have we created our next enemy and or war.???


What I sense going on is that the Deep State wants to continue their plans...their one world plans and to do this ...the USA must take a back seat while supporting the rest of the world off our breast and labors.....thus insuring our taking second, third, and fourth place while working/laboring for first place.

And I believe the Biden Administration was put in office to insure this happens....and these Internationalist Deep Staters cannot withstand another four years of Trump and America First. This is intolerable to them. For their plans are one world....not America First...or even Make America Great Again.....this will not happen. It is not in Deep State plans for America and the world.

We as Americans must be made to feel guilty about any successes we have...and or forced to measure everything in our lives by Race...by Sex...By sexual orientation...and any other changing winds possible. Only then can we even attempt to think for ourselves....and for our reasons.

This is group think....not individual liberty and freedom.

It is also chaos....and confusion....and we know the name of the of the author aconfusion....by name.


When and why did the US Government switch gods and tell no one they had done this????




Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Wow...I just found this on Breitbart News...

MSNBC's Wallace: If Trump Is Elected, America Will Be 'Threat to the World Order' (breitbart.com)

Ishmaelites run wild.....America last..


Wow!!!!

Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

" 'He'll Kill Us All' - New Head Of Ukrainian Forces Nicknamed 'The Butcher' By Own Troops"

"Syrskyi, who was born in central Russia, is known for his -'hard-driving Soviet-style' tactics"
March 11, 2024

https://www.rmx.news/article/he-wil...rces-nicknamed-the-butcher-by-his-own-troops/

Begin quote:

The new head of the Ukrainian army, Oleksandr Syrskyi, is known as “the butcher” by his own troops, and there are fears his aggressive style will lead to massive losses for Ukrainians in the east on top of already high casualties.

While President Zelensky claims that Ukraine has suffered only 31, 000 soldier deaths, most analysts, and those in Ukraine, know that number is far from reality. In fact, Ukraine’s ally, the United States, estimates that Ukraine had lost 70,000 men already last summer, on top of many more severely wounded or psychologically traumatized. The number of missing also remains high.

In a new interview with Politico, one soldier who wished to remain anonymous warned about the 58-year-old Syrskyi, saying: “He will kill us all.”

Politico reports that Ukrainian troops reportedly refer to the new commander of Ukraine’s ground forces as someone willing to put his troops in harm’s way to achieve his goals. Syrskyi, who was born in central Russia, is known for his “hard-driving Soviet-style” tactics.

He is filling in the shoes of the former commander of Ukraine, Valeriy Zalushny, who is still well-loved by the troops and who is said to have placed their safety as one of his top priorities. Zalushny had come under criticism for his public statements that he believed the war had reached a stalemate, which some analysts interpreted as a call for a ceasefire and a winding down of hostilities, which is in sharp contrast to Zelensky’s declared goals in the war of reclaiming lost territories.

Zelensky might also have other motives for prolonging the conflict, such as polls showing that he would outright lose the presidency to Zalushny if a fair vote were held. However, March national elections have been canceled, with the excuse that elections cannot be held while the war continues.

Syrskyi’s appointment also comes at a time when there is a sharp debate in Ukrainian society about large-scale mobilization efforts. Ukraine has already lost a significant amount of its population, both due to war and the emigration of the female population. Many of the men most willing to go to the front have long since enlisted or perished in battle, leaving a population of Ukrainians increasingly unwilling to take up arms.

One officer on X posted about Syrskyi’s appointment, saying, his leadership style “is bankrupt, his presence or orders coming from his name are demoralizing, and he undermines trust in the command in general. His relentless pursuit of tactical gains constantly depletes our valuable human resources, resulting in tactical advances such as capturing tree lines or small villages, with no operational goals in mind.”

End quote

 

I've heard similar said about George Patton.


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

"Old Blood and Guts"

His men said of him, "Your blood, his guts." But his men respected him. He'd go right up to the front lines with them -- jump in the same foxhole. He risked his life just as did his men.

 

Been thinking about this...lonewolf...'

MSNBC's Wallace: If Trump Is Elected, America Will Be 'Threat to the World Order' (breitbart.com)


Trump has openly said that if he becomes President again...he will very quickly shut down the Ukraine war and I agree with Wallace....Trump is a threat to the New World Order...

And this explains the desperation to get him out of the running/Office ...by any means.....any means..

That is the applicability to the topic line of this thread...and I am in agreement with Trump on this.

We are fighting or getting involved in too many of other peoples wars and for way too many years....and I believe we need to put America First.....


But Definitely ..Trump is definitely a threat to Deep State...One World...New World Order plans..


America in last place...and in our own country......while working and risking for first place....the very same thing which is happening in the UK and on the Continent...Breast feeding the rest of the world at taxpayer expense....and also through inflation.....a hidden tax.

I will further amplify what I am trying to say....about breast feeding the rest of the world at taxpayer expense...

That this is a type of "Involuntary Servitude" and in America ...is contrary to Amendment 13 of our Constitution of the United States.

And Inflation is their number one tool in fortifying the New World Order....and Involuntary Servitude...deficit spending...

And to cover this up.....rabid coming inflation..they are predicting some serious tax increases.....on the private sector..not the government rabid deficit spending....but the private sector.


Be Warned these NWO Ishmaelites...run wild and rough shod over our country..


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

My thinking the war " will expand " well beyond Ukraine's borders , regardless of whom gains military advantage in the on-going conflict . Russia will follow it's past military history tactics and be willing to fight to the very last of its bullets and " its last Nuke " . N. A.T.O. will not concede defeat , take their ball and go home . -- The results , I won't bother explaining . -- My personal solution is to prepare .

 

NATO is a Deep State front ...A Deep State Puppet...and we in America need to get out of it.

Remember what was George Washingtton's position....."Trade with everyone and treaties with no one."

I do not think this is taught if ever...today in public schools.

This was George Washington's version of America First.....or if you prefer...MAGA.

It was not America Last.




Notice this as well....

The flag of Pan Slavism......


from this link here.....

Pan-Slavism - Wikipedia

Flag of Yugoslavia (1918–1941) - Pan-Slavism - Wikipedia


Now look at the Russian flag.....

Russia - Wikipedia

now the flag...

Flag of Russia - Russia - Wikipedia



I dare say we have more socialists and or communists here in America than in Russia.....and with the same communist goals....controlling the herd....

If by nothing else...by deficit/inflation...money creation.


Try thinking further than ESPN and or the Kardashians or whatever distractions are coming next to prevent our thinking outside the authorized box..

Teach yourself to think past the standard good cop/bad cop...being constantly played on us ...24/7


Read this carefully.....and think...do not emote.....


Commanding Heights : Keynes on Inflation | on PBS

Be Warned these Ishmaelites....not in Russia..but here in and amongst our own leadership....


I don't worry so much about Russia and the Ukraine but the Demonization going on amongst our own leadership ......creating more and more and more inflation.....ad infinitum....


That pier in Gaza is going to be a disaster......for everyone........rather than aid...it will quickly be overtaken to bring in more weapons and or arms.....

Seems to me that a lot of the aid brought in was quickly hijacked by Hamas.....do any of you remember hearing that????



Thinking into history past.....Did not the US government build and finance a hard road into the interior of Cambodia....Laos...and such to facilitate government troop movement and very quickly it became the number one route to quickly ship more drugs around the country and to export????

Are we once again repeating history???? Ishmaelite history????


Remember something else...very very important to our survival as a nation and a people....

Wealth Redistribution is not Risk Redistribution.


Don't allow any BS politician mislead you on this.....


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

"Sino-Soviet border conflict"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

"The Sino-Soviet border conflict was a seven-month undeclared military conflict between the Soviet Union and China in 1969, following the Sino-Soviet split. The most serious border clash, which brought the world's two largest communist states to the brink of war, occurred near Damansky (Zhenbao) Island on the Ussuri (Wusuli) River in Manchuria. Clashes also took place in Xinjiang."

=====================================

"TRANS-SIBERIAN RAILROAD"

https://factsanddetails.com/russia/Places/sub9_9e/entry-5156.html


===================================================

Russia has to perpetually push the Trans-Siberian railroad south. Why? To get under -- latitude-wise -- the areas of Siberia that are covered in permafrost. Permafrost begins to melt during summer. Can't build a railroad on that. Oops!

What is south of the Trans-Siberian railroad? Mongolia and China. Oops!

Why do I know all of this minutia crap? Two of my undergrad profs at uni. were an Annapolis grads. One was a Geography professor who had been a high-ranking Navy officer during WWII. In our class lectures, he took us around the world explaining why areas of conflict were always flash-points brought-on by the unique geography of the regions. Each exam's 4 mini-treatise answers were written by us in blue-books handed out on day of exam. Remember, this was back in the day when ZERO slack was given to students. You would just fail and be gone. Same when I went for my electronics degree (another college) -- 50% of entering students failed-out in first year. Back in the day, I was a blue-flamer. Graduated summa cum laude wherever I studied ... except high school where I partied to the max (still made B average). Dad died my senior year of high scho0l = buckle-down or flame-out.

My other Annapolis-grad prof was for undergrad American Literature. I'm dyslexic! Aaaaaaahhh!!!!!

Man did I ever have to fight fight fight to make grade B in there! I loved that prof, however. Freaking genius. Took no crap. About kicked a fellow student out of his class ... permanently. What had the student done? During lecture, the student looked at his watch. Me, I knew not to do that. Since age 15, I'd been surrounded by hard-nosed retired military at school and at home. I will say this, when we were finished shooting rifle matches, Sgt. Major didn't care / semi-promoted us partying. Once, he asked me if I had any of my favorite wine left, "Sergeant Major, I swear that we'd share were there any left." He grinned. He was a good soul who'd been raised in a hell world. Before matches, NONE of us smoked nor went near ANY tobacco. Nicotine raises your pulse rate. As a teenager, I could get my HR down to 50 bpm while at the range and all TOO often when not there -- this I tried to stop myself, tried NOT to think about my heart, scary. Today, this old heart's normal HR can sometimes go below 50 bpm ... which is quite troubling to my GP. I've an enlarged heart, have for decades, but when you're my age that can result in a descent into a fatal arrhythmia. At least that will be quick. Word to the wise, let your heart do what it wants to do. Your mind can screw-up your body's boiler-works.

==============================================

 

I found this on U Tube today with Tucker Carlson and I think Tucker is spot on ...about so much in his presentation here and in particularly about the Ukraine.....

We are once again being gaslighted on the topic of the Ukraine.....and by our own leadership.

We are being gaslighted....conned about so much ...and Tucker Carlson pretty much sums it up across the board..

Tucker Carlson 3/16/24 | Tucker Carlson March 16, 2024 (youtube.com)


By the way....for those of you members who know from where I speak and about what I speak here...

Those of us who have worked or been employed in very dangerous and or inherently hazardous occupations to bring our monies home to our families..

When you watch much of our tabloid fear type leadership today.....are you really...impressed....I'm not.

What little I bothered to watch of the State of the Union ...I saw tabloid leadership.....fear and insecurity mongering.

Tabloid leadership to me also means the blame game...and not real leadership but constantly blaming others....with no real solutions on the horizon....just more herding and limits on our freedoms and liberties.

But....

You members think for yourselves and for your own reasons. Your driving your own bus..


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

I like this fellow...Colonel Douglas Mcgreggor.....and what he says...particularly about the Ukraine..


Col. Douglas Macgregor: Europe Crumbling, Middle East Exploding (youtube.com)


Be Warned these Ishmaelites....in our leadership positions.

Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Moscow has just suffered a major terrorist attack at a concert hall. Many have been killed and injured.

Instantly, the current White House regime has screamed that the the Ukrainians had nothing to do with it. How do they know?!

Yes, Muslim terrorist are alive and active in Russia. This sure wouldn't be their first attack at a crowded venue. Nevertheless, one can't be sure at this early date -- same day -- of who committed this atrocity.


"U.S. Says No Sign of Ukraine Role in ‘Terrible’ Moscow Attack"

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024...ukraine-role-in-terrible-moscow-attack-a84581

"National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said the United States was still gathering information after Russian officials said gunmen opened fire in a "terrorist" attack, leaving dead and wounded.

" 'There is no indication at this time that Ukraine, or Ukrainians, were involved in the shooting,' Kirby told reporters. 'I would disabuse you at this early hour of any connection to Ukraine. "

====================================

"At least 40 Killed, 100 Injured in Mass Shooting Outside Moscow "

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024...njured-in-mass-shooting-outside-moscow-a84579

Begin quote

A group of armed men opened fire at a concert hall in a Moscow suburb on Friday night, killing at least 40 people and injuring 100 others, according to Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB).

Shortly following initial news reports of the shooting, Moscow region Governor Andrei Vorobyov said he had arrived at the scene and was leading response efforts to the incident.

Russian Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev also arrived at the scene, the state-run RIA Novosti news agency reported.

A video shared online showed at least two masked men entering the Crocus City Hall, with one repeatedly firing shots from what appeared to be an assault rifle. Another graphic video showed four men, with at least three carrying weapons, chasing a group of people and firing at them point blank.

Spetznaz and riot police units were sent in response to the incident, the TASS news agency reported, while a video later shared by news outlets showed law enforcement officers encircling the concert hall.

Footage published by the state-run TASS news agency showed a large fire at Crocus City Hall, which is located around 16 kilometers northwest of the center of Moscow.

More than 70 ambulance teams were working near Crocus City Hall and medics were helping those who had been injured, Vorobyov said.

"Around 100 people have been evacuated from the basement by firefighters. Work is ongoing to save people from the roof of the building with lifting equipment," the Moscow region's branch of the Emergency Situations Ministry wrote on Telegram.

Up to 6,200 people may have been inside the concert hall at the time of the attack, according to a seating plan of the venue.

Russia's Investigative Committee, which probes major crimes, said it opened a criminal terrorism case into the incident.

End quote

================================

 

A good post , excellent for those that don't keep their heads in the sand . To take it to the next logical step - N.A.T.O. will respond with troops of their own entering the conflict . For those that don't intend to send their kids or grandkids to serve with homos to counteract the Russians - prepare for their hidden sanctuaries .

 

I'm thinking conscription will go over like a lead balloon.

I'm looking for Russia to go full-tilt-boogie with heavier missiles and quite possibly theater nukes.

Putin is NOT going to continue to allow Ukraine the ability to bring in Western supplies. I watching for the Kremlin to next destroy highways, rail lines, and airports. Power grid essential targets are now being hit by Russia -- this will not stop. The Ukraine is soaking all spare electrical generators and transformers (the huge ones) out of Europe. Europe will soon have no reserve / backup electrical emergency equipment for itself.

France is having to crank back up its military industrial complex due to the amount of armaments being soaked away by Ukraine.

Maybe this is why Putin is allowing this war to go on without simply stepping on Ukraine with its theater nuclear toys -- he wants to soak the West of its military and preparatory reserves. I know that China is way past delighted that this stupid biden regime is backing Ukraine. What idiots / total-losers we have running Western nations!

Putin doesn't want any of the Baltic nations (they were too much of a pain for the USSR; who wants them?; for the past few decades, the US has been propping up Baltic & Russian military families living in the Baltic states with aid). Putin does want to push south ... again. Oil reserves are still there and too, all of the oil pipelines running through those regions, Putin wants to control (cut-off, if need be). Russia wants to be THE petroleum provider to Europe. Putin is money-hungry to the max. He wants to set the new international currency and is buying gold hand-over-fist to do so.

Georgia fears Russia (remember the Russian annexation of a Georgian region, the excuse being Muslim terrorism). Lately, Georgia is "making nice" with the Russian bear and not wanting to appear cozy with the EU (and, read "NATO crew"). NATO's pushing eastward was mega-stupid, because the odds of Russia pushing back (witness Ukraine) was 100% guaranteed.

"Playing With Fire: Georgia’s Cautious Rapprochement With Russia"

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/90246


.

 

Lonewolf....

I've been thinking and re thinking this from your post above.......several of your posts on this thread..

Putin like Hitler......Wow....!!!!


Most people out here have never heard of this history.......ever...

"Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler"

By Anthony Sutton.


Also

"Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution"

Again by Anthony Sutton.



"National Suicide ....Military Aid to the Soviet Union.."

And again by Anthony Sutton.


We here in America have a nasty history/habit of building our next enemy to fight...


This good cop/bad cop stuff into which we keep getting involved....most of us, particularly Americans, have no real clue as to it's origins....it is not what we have been led or misled to believe it is.


I am not that worried about Putin going nuclear as I am Turkey and Iran going against Israel and thus Israel having to go nuclear and carry out their Sampson Option......and then the world going nuclear as a result of events running amok.



And as far as our leadership here in America....I believe they are a bunch of total idealistic air heads and also totally out of touch with most of America and do not care one whit about being out of touch. They think they are entitled to this country and it's people....en toto.

They are hell bent on a total non representative government...and thus America and Americans into social and economic involuntary servitude...bondage....thus Ishmaelites.

The Ukraine is just an extension of this non representative government.


To me ...America as been for too long...privately run....in secret.....by Occult/hidden concealed means.......but with things like the internet...it is getting more difficult to hide it and also the main Stream media is loosing it's control/hold over the people....and about time too.

And I believe this pattern of bondage goes back to before WW1...to the Spanish American War and possibly before..
because suddenly we found ourselves operating outside the Western Hemisphere and contrary to the Monroe Doctrine in taking the Philippines.....indicating that there was a sudden change in Pan Americanism.....to international doctrine/dogma.

I am talking over a hundred year ago.....and not recent.


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.