Defense Shotgun

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by Old Geezer, Jun 5, 2021.

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  1. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    One limiting factor of the defensive shotgun is that one usually has only 6 rounds in the tube of a pump shotgun. Even with magazine extenders, one is still limited to under 10 rounds of ammunition. If you are trapped in a riot situation, if your home is being overrun with attackers, you could be put into a situation wherein you could run out of ammunition in your defensive weapon.

    Continually loading your pump or auto shotgun is therefore very important.

    I found the following video of a competition shooter in the realm of shotguns. In the following video, he reloads using a special shotgun shell carrier used in competition. These are available on the web and I will provide links. However, these carriers are just NOT practical. The competition shooter in this video says the same, they are not practical. So, at a time-stamp of approx 5 minutes into this video, he shows a technique of loading wherein one has two shells on one's hand for each double-shell insertion pass. He also makes the point of reloading while you have a live round in the chamber in case of a needed emergency shot.




    Here are some links for competition shotgun shell holders. During any real defensive situation, these would be impractical.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=double-load+shotgun+carrier&atb=v140-1&iax=images&ia=images
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
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  2. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Mossberg makes a magazine-fed pump shotgun, the 590M. It comes with a 10-round magazine, however a 20-rnd magazine can be purchased. The following video shows that there are issues with this shotgun. Apparently, it can be difficult to rack the slide, especially if one is using the 20-round magazine.



    https://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/

    .
     
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  3. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    How to Reload a Defensive Shotgun



    Practical Drills for the Home Defense Shotgun



    Short stocking

     
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  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  5. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I'm abidexterous in a lot of things. I shoot, play golf and pool right handed but write and throw with my left hand. I wear a bandolier across my chest and load with my left hand between shots without ever lowering the gun. A lot of things I just flip back and forth with no preferance. It drove my Dad crazy.
     
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  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Here are results of patterning a 12 ga. shotgun with a standard load of 00 buckshot (9 pellets). Varying distances are tested; 5 yrd, then 10, 15, ...

     
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  7. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Shotgun improves gene pool

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...glar-enters-backdoor-dies-from-shotgun-blast/

    Would-be home-invader enters via back door, exits via black door.

    "The homeowner grabbed shotgun and confronted the suspect, telling him to leave. The suspect allegedly refused to comply so the homeowner shot him.

    "The suspect was taken to a hospital and pronounced dead."

    Odds are bad for the badguys at the shotgun casino.
    .
     
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  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    No self-respecting survivalist is properly armed unless they've got a fully-automatic 12 ga. shotgun.





    Belt-fed is the way to go, but this fellow has some serious jamming issues with his riot-control machine.



    It's not got the "lead fog factor" of a full-auto scatter-gun, but hey those little mini-guns do have a lot going for them. This is especially true if you get into one of those road-rage thingies. Some idiot cuts you off in traffic, deploy your pickup's minigun.

     
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  10. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Continued from above

    This is a photograph of my Scottish friend (the mustachioed guy) out on Loch Ness taking care of some drunken speed-boaters who were messing with us. This was a few years ago and I swear, we were minding our own business on his family's boat. Well I'll tell you this, Mike just doesn't put up with that crap! The mini, he kept that just in case Old Nessie rose up out of the water to capsize him and his family on the boat there don't'cha'know.

    upload_2021-11-13_16-51-12.png
     

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  11. Dalewick

    Dalewick Legendary Survivalist
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    OG, Full auto is fun and a great way to relieve tension, but unless your clearing rooms in urban warfare it's a waste of ammo. You learn to use full auto for fighting off an ambush of clearing rooms. I would rather have 6 real shooters than a platoon of spray and pray cherries.

    I have a couple shotguns but for tactical use I prefer my Benelli M4.

    Dale
     
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  12. Dalewick

    Dalewick Legendary Survivalist
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    OG, Full auto is fun and a great way to relieve tension, but unless your clearing rooms in urban warfare it's a waste of ammo. You learn to use full auto for fighting off an ambush of clearing rooms. I would rather have 6 real shooters than a platoon of spray and pray cherries.

    I have a couple shotguns but for tactical use I prefer my Benelli M4.

    Dale
     
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  13. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    I agree with Dale in that full auto is mostly a waste of ammo. I do prefer a good semi auto shotgun. Faster follow up shots and very reliable with the proper ammo. I am not fond of pump action shotguns as I think too many people, myself included, would tend to short stoke them when under pressure. My choice would be a mag fed semi auto shotgun. Very fast reloads and fast follow up shots. Separate mags can be loaded with different loads, bird shot, light buck shot, regular buck shot or slugs for different shooting situations.
     
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  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Full auto is fun ...

    except when facing a human wave assault.
     
  15. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  16. Dalewick

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  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    shoot and kill someone with a shotgun in the UK and you'll be tried for murder and they'll lock you up and throw away the key. you will never see the outside ever again and you will die in prison, some of our laws are lax but not that one.
     
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    1. Ystranc
      Not necessarily correct, in the event of a home invasion a homeowner isn’t restricted to proportionate violence it is acceptable to use use disproportionate violence as long as it is not grossly disproportionate. If you are in fear for your life or the lives of others it’s possible that you can have a defence in law if you use lethal force. The key to your legal defence is that any weapon that you use in your defence must be something that you might reasonably and lawfully have in your possession and you must act without premeditation.
       
      Ystranc, Nov 19, 2021
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  18. Dalewick

    Dalewick Legendary Survivalist
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    I will admit LW, I don't understand that thought process. If someone has forced there way into your home, and is raping your loved ones or worse, what does your authorities expect it's citizens to do? Some people are predators on society, like wolves. They stalk and attack anyone they can overcome and the authorities are never there to prevent it. They only show up after its all over to clean up the mess. It sounds like you have lost the legal right to protect your own life and the lives of your loved ones. Is that true?

    No one should want to actually kill another human. It takes a lot of training to teach soldiers how to and that has its own consequences.

    Taking a person's right to fight to live. That's a scary thought.

    Dale
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    we can use "reasonable force" whilst the burglar is in the house but chasing him down the road after he has left would be classed as assault.
     
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    1. Ystranc
      True but that is no longer self defence. Although the definition of self defence is open to interpretation.
       
      Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
      Ystranc, Nov 19, 2021
  20. Max rigger

    Max rigger Master Survivalist
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    In 2013 the government bought in 'Householder defense' which changed things. Its now down to your personal judgement of the potential threat and how your capable of defending yourself and family. Your elderly and or frail facing a violent burglar and kill them in what you believe was your only realistic response and the courts will take that into account, its not as cut and dried as it used to be. Crown Prosecution Service guidance says they no longer expect householders to make what they call 'fine adjustments' in their response to a home invasion.

    But LW is correct in that shooting/hurting someone fleeing the scene and your in the mire.
     
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  21. lonewolf

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    #have adjusted the date, you put 2913 , slip of the finger- I assume you meant 2013.#
     
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  22. lonewolf

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  23. Dalewick

    Dalewick Legendary Survivalist
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    If you shoot anyone fleeing (even in the states), it's classified murder if you kill them. There are other charges if they live. Hopefully for both sides.

    Reasonable force laws are a hornets nest. Everything is fine until you poke it. Reasonable is subjective at best. What one prosecutor considers proper use of force, another prosecutor will consider excessive and try to send you to prison.

    There are degrees of "burglars" anymore. The drug addict kid wanting something to sell for his next fix is not the same concern as the psycho group looking to steal everything of value after raping, torturing and killing everyone in your family.

    Dale
     
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  24. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    It’s a difficult subject to pass comment on especially on a public forum because any statement could be seen as premeditation at some legal proceeding at some distant point in the future.
     
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  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Here in the States, you are not permitted to chase a felon. Besides, that's not a good idea. How many of his buddies are in the car to which he is running?! Three of his friends therein may just be armed and turn you into hamburger.
     
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  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I guess everyone has read that Kyle Rittenhouse was exonerated for nuking the two rioters in Wisconsin.
     
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    1. TMT Tactical
      Works for me!
       
      TMT Tactical, Nov 19, 2021
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  27. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    anyone who riots is asking for everything they get. thats not protesting that is violence for violence sake and usually involves looting too.
     
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  28. Max rigger

    Max rigger Master Survivalist
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    I'm still amazed that a minor can have access to an assault weapon at age 17 but can't buy a pint down the pub until he's 21, the logic in that escapes me which begs the question "Why was a minor walking the streets during a period of civil unrest armed with a lethal weapon"?

    He got away with manslaughter at least, personally I think he went out to shoot some black folk that night, the 'riot' was a handy excuse for doing so plus he'll make a shed load of cash from the film and book rights plus interviews etc. It was interesting to see a nice white Christian church raised $100k towards his defence...bless them all.

    Edit: Total church based funds raised passed $270K

    A messed up situation folks that will do more harm than good in the long run I fear. As you may have guessed I'm no fan of Kyle.
     
  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    trouble is the people he shot were all WHITE, so anyone who tries to claim a racial element to the killings is an idiot, they also attacked him, video shows them chasing him not the other way around. in my book if someone goes out to riot then they can expect to get their violence returned, they may come home with a few bruises or they may never come home at all, that is their choice.
     
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  30. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    The only relevant question is, was he in fear for his life?
    As I understand it under US law he is entitled to be in possession of a long firearm (not an actual assault rifle but certainly tactical looking) whether it showed wisdom is another question but I’m not sure how much wisdom a seventeen year old could be expected to show.
    Everyone was acting angry and stupid that night and I do however agree that he would have shown better judgment if he’d stayed away…unfortunately he didn’t and this is where we’re at…arguing the rights and wrongs of a legal decision when non of us are party to all the facts.
     
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  31. lonewolf

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    might have been better if he had stayed away, which is what I'd have done.
    self defence is legal and the jury obviously accepted this.
     
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  32. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    If one goes looking for trouble, they'll find it. Rittenhouse came within a hair of ending up like Reginald Denny or dead.

    The riots in Wisconsin were the business of Wisconsin. It's up to them to defend their own lives and assets.

    And who called Rittenhouse to help?! As far as I know, no distress signal was sent out from store owners, home owners, or anybody else. If some political group or religious group were under fire and looking at getting badly injured or slaughtered, then that is one whole other story. NOT the case here.

    Whoever transferred the rifle to this 17 yr old (at the time) committed a federal felony. In the federal paperwork an American fills out, one of the questions asks if the firearm is for oneself or if it is to be xferred to someone else. If a xfer is to occur, then the person receiving the firearm (let's say it's a Christmas gift) also has to fill-out a "yellow sheet". Another item is that an adult xferred a firearm to a minor. You cannot do this. After having purchased a firearm for yourself, in future, you can give/sell the firearm to the minor's parent or guardian. It is the responsibility of the parent or guardian to regulate the minor in its use.

    Once when I was a skinny little kid, I had a .22 mag revolver on me (it had adjustable sights, Colt, Buntline). I'd gone to a place where local idiots were illegally dumping trash -- old refrigerators, mattresses, scrap left over from building demolition, and sometimes a bit of kitchen scraps. I was there shooting rats (refrigerators, washers, ...). Walking back home, a highway patrolman was cruising through and I stopped him. I asked what we locals could do about stray dogs gathering around that dump. He said to me through his driver window, "Boy, I cain't tell you what to do, but I know what I would do." Basically, he was telling me to take-out those dogs also. My dad had shot one near there once himself. Somebody's got to do something. We'd have rabies run through the area around every seven years. I never learned why this happened in that 7yr cycle.

    I was given a .22 semi-auto rifle at age 12. A 20 ga shotgun at 13 (squirrel hunting with Pap). Bought myself a cheap Spanish double-barrel 12 ga at 16. Got a deer rifle at 16. Dad bought me that revolver for my 17th birthday. Even back those centuries ago, one had to register handguns at the county seat. My dad was talking to a deputy there (BIG guy >6'3") and the deputy looked at us and said, "He's gettin' up there. High time he learnt how to use a revolver." When I was on my high school rifle team, we were allowed to check-out our target rifles to go to the police range or the Army Reserve range to shoot. We'd call ahead to see if there was an opening in their range calendar. Sgt. Major did not accompany us there. Cops and Army welcomed us. In the day, discipline was STRICT. They knew we had a battalion Sgt. Major on our ass, thus we would NEVER screw-up.

    Back then in the South, you were expected to begin acting like a man as soon as any whiskers showed up on your chin. And you did. Your voice changed, then you did -- zero extended-childhood. Both my Jr. High and High School principals were Marines. Zero tolerance for acting out. There had been some armed robberies (knives) at our Jr. High, so talking about "sending in the troops", the city council / school board sure did. Then, there were a series of bomb threats, so they had to hammer that crap down. This Jr. High had students from some "bad neighborhoods" ... needless to say.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  33. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    Kyle was guilty of being young and dumb but that was it. He had a legal right to be there. He had a legal right to be armed with a long gun. His long gun was also legal. He was too young to get a pistol or a concealed carry permit. The most important point was /is, he had a legal right to defend himself from multiple attackers. All the violence was caught on several video cameras and cell phones and at no time did it show that Kyle was the instigator of the violence. The prosecutor's own witness's testified that Kyle was attacked. The people that attacked Kyle were stupid and aggressive and they paid the price for their actions. Fortunately, the American citizen does have the right to defend themselves. And in most states, it is not only our right but we are expected to exercise that right. As for conjecture that he went there to shoot Black people, none of the assailants (not victims) were white. Liberal Bullsh!t media, at is worst, printed lies and left out facts. Last but not least, this became a riot not a peaceful protest. Martin Luther King held peaceful protests. Ghandi held peaceful protests. BLM hold riots! Rioters should be open season to all law abiding citizens. NOTE: During the LA riots in years past (many years ago) the rioters attempted to invade Korean town. The local store owner armed themselves and not one store was looted or burned. It is time to take back our streets.
     
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  34. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    I never have and never will get involved in rioting, its not my thing, and it usually happens in the UK in cities only and I stay out of cities, dont need to go near those ant hills.
    and rioting over here is the likes of BLM, Woke and the Anarchy crowd, I have no respect for such people.
     
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  35. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    As rioting and home invasions increase in Western nations, the riot shotgun increases in demand. As everyone is painfully aware, the price of firearms has gone up into the stratosphere. Anything cheap and yet effective available? Yep.

    Here's a video about three economy pump shotguns. I'm very pro-rifle, however when it comes to defending one's home and/or neighborhood, the shotgun quickly rises to a top choice:

    "3 cheap shotguns in 2021"

     
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  36. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    For close and personal encounters, the shotgun is very hard to beat. I am not a fan of pump action simply due to human error. Short stroking a pump shotgun could be a problem for people under the stress of needing to defend themselves. While the pump shotgun is super reliable, the shooter may not be. I tend to lean towards a mag fed semiauto shotgun. While they certainly are more complex. I trust them more than I trust my ability to NOT short stroke a pump shotgun.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
  37. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Was watching some cop show -- supposedly showing real life, "reality show", whatever. OK, so this patrol officer goes to their indoor range to qualify for his shotgun certification. Round #3, he short-shucks his weapon. What happened? He still got his certification. Go figure.

    Cop is on trial right now for killing the crap out of a suspect. So she draws her TASER and screams, "TASER!", and puts a bullet into the perp. He hits the gas and drives down the road a little ways, then he gives up the ghost. Taser? Nope, she accidentally drew her semi-auto pistol and killed the bejesus out'a the guy.

    And Alec Baldwin sez he didn't pull the trigger.

    Get familiar with your weapons or sell them to someone who is competent with them.

    If you ask me, this is kind'a serious. Just an observation there.
    .
     
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  38. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    I volunteer at a shooting range two days a week. It is unbelievable the number of people that do not have a clue about their firearms. They don't know how to adjust their scopes or red dots sights. They don't know how to lock back the bolts on their semiauto rifles. Some don't even know where their safety is located. I can't imagine how well these people would do in an actual self defense situation. I do my best to teach them the basics of their firearms but my time with them is very limited. When it hits the fan, I doubt many of these gun owners are going to survive. If you don't know which end of the hammer to hold, you are not going to drive many nails. LOL
     
  39. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Too many people think that guns are dangerous and that all you have to do is sort of point them, pull the trigger and the bad guy falls down. In a stress situation someone that has never put in any time practicing with a gun is more of a danger to themselves and innocent bystanders than an attacker.

    LOL, I saw a house one time after an idiot had let loose with 6 rounds from a pump shotgun. Someone had kicked his front door and he made a panicked dash to his bedroom for his shotgun. He had shot holes in the ceiling, three different walls and a hole in the floor. I'm sure he scared the crap out of the burglar but in the end he was holding an empty gun and the criminal was uninjured and gone. Fortunately, he lived alone. Interior sheetrock walls don't slow bullets down at all and even a shotgun with birdshot will go right through it.

    There are guns in every room of my house and in most cases they are loaded. I tend towards shotguns with #4 shot for inside my house. At inside distances the shot is still in the wad and hits like a slug EXCEPT it doesn't go through several walls if you miss. Beside my door is a Mossberg 500 loaded with buckshot and slugs. I don't have one in the chamber on that one or any that are in public areas but then I rack the slide as soon as I pick up a pump shotgun. I would rather eject an unfired round than pull the trigger on an empty chamber in an emergency. That also means that a kid can't fire it by just playing with the trigger.

    I went through the AR, AK and Mini14 thing when I was younger. Now I am mostly of a defensive mind set and have no need for that sort of offensive armament. Now I’m comfortable with a pump shotgun with a riot barrel, a Ruger 10-22 and a Winchester Rifle for my defensive long guns.

    In truth I am more of a pistolaro than anything else. I’ve fired tens of thousands of rounds through my many handguns. I am honestly more instinctive with them than I am with a rifle. There was a point in time when I was running 500 to a thousand rounds every month. Sometimes we would do that many in a weekend. I reloaded every Friday night and then went shooting on Saturday.
     
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  40. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Were I a gun store owner, I could go broke. I'd not sell to someone I feared might just hurt themself.

    There's a gun store in my area that also conducts training classes -- excellent! Back home, there's a gun shop that also has a shooting range where one can rent a firearm and have someone show them the ropes before a firearm purchase -- excellent! I've had my certifications for rifle and pistol instructor, thus am a total believer in training first. In many states these days, a person has to go through a hunter's safety course before getting a hunting license. The latter results in people aged 15-or-so getting their training before going out into the field.

    Gun stores are making big bucks lately on firearm safes -- especially fire-resistant ones. With such safes, one can not only keep firearms out of the hands of trash humans, one can protect important paperwork and family keepsakes.

    Was at a store looking for a trigger lock for my grandson's turkey gun. Asked an employee where they were located and he said, "Wait a minute." He went back into storage, came out with one, and handed it to me, no charge. So I made sure to buy something there that day (a motion-detector triggered camera usually used by hunters, but you can use them for security).
    .
     
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  41. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    I found that skeet shooting for an afternoon and going through several boxes of ammo GREATLY increase you ability to reload quickly , You learn to reload on the fly between shots,
    I do not have one of those belts , just a big old hunting parka with great big pockets.
    I use a 870 Remington.
     
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  42. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "Heroic officer rushed into Uvalde school with barber’s shotgun to save daughter, wife"

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/27/cbp-o...school-with-barbers-shotgun-to-save-daughter/

    "An off-duty US Customs and Border Protection agent fearlessly rushed into Robb Elementary School with his barber’s shotgun and rescued dozens of children and his daughter after his wife texted him that there was an active shooter.

    "Jacob Albarado had just sat down for a haircut when he received the horrifying message from his wife, Trisha, a fourth-grade teacher at the Uvalde, Texas, elementary school, he told the New York Times.

    “'here’s an active shooter,' she wrote. 'Help,' she sent before sending a chilling: 'I love you.'

    "He immediately leaped out of his seat, grabbed the barber’s shotgun and sped off toward the school.

    "His daughter, a second-grader, was locked inside a bathroom while his wife hid under desks with her students, the Times reported.

    "A tactical team was preparing to enter the school when Albarado arrived. Desperate to get his daughter and wife out, he made a plan with other officers to try to enter the school and evacuate as many students as possible.

    "He said he entered the wing of the school where he knew his daughter was located, and as he searched for her, began 'clearing all the classes in her wing,' he told the Times.

    "Two officers with guns drawn provided cover while two others guided dozens of 'hysterical' children and teachers out to the sidewalk, he said.

    "When Albarado finally saw his 8-year-old daughter, Jayda, they embraced, but he kept moving forward to bring more students to safety.

    “'I did what I was trained to do,' Albarado told the paper."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Seek training, then train train train.

    Our "government" lets psychos walk the streets ... on purpose.
    .
     
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  43. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    20 ga ammo for home defense. Liked this article because it shows pellet dispersion at 5, 10, and 15 yard ranges (15 ft, 30ft, and 45 feet; 4.6meters, 9.144 meters, and 13.7 meters; or just think number of paces). Very short ranges (2 or 3 meters) result in a shotgun "pattern" (that has yet to open-up) blowing one large hole in the intruder/aggressor. At these short ranges, even the "little" 20 gauge is profoundly effective. Video criticism -- he does not tell the choke size. The barrel is 20 inches, so one can just figure that it is cylinder choke. You don't want modified or full choke for close-range work because there
    will be little dispersion of pellets. This guy is using #4 buckshot. You can purchase larger #2 buckshot for a 20 gauge. I found and purchased some #1 buckshot out of Italy. Concerning 12 ga for home defense, 00 buckshot is most effective; however, these pellets go right through your home's interior walls, thus you must never engage an intruder if there is a room behind him that is occupied with innocents.

    Note that a 20 ga. will blow a 2" x 4" in half -- ain't no toy.

    Federal Personal Defense 20 Gauge

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+20-guage+home+defense&&view=detail&mid=E6A51D4ABE7429605623E6A51D4ABE7429605623&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=/videos/search?q=%2b20-guage+home+defense&FORM=RCVR
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  44. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like #4 buckshot for home defense and actually suspect that nearly any shot size will get the job done at most inhouse distances. The shot has just left the wad at ten feet or so and would hit almost like a solid mass. The big advantage to using a smaller shot indoors is that once it spreads just a little bit it becomes less likely to go through several walls and harm someone unintended.
     
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  45. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "'He shot my arm off': 80-year-old shotgun-wielding store owner prevents armed robbery"

    https://www.theblaze.com/news/elderly-store-owner-blasts-robbers

    "On Sunday July 31 at 2:45 a.m. in Norco, California, four male suspects wearing facial coverings and hoods pulled up to Norco Market & Liquor store in a black BMV X3 SUV. One of the suspects entered the establishment brandishing a rifle.

    "CBS Los Angeles reports that 80-year-old storeowner Craig Cope had seen the suspects exiting the vehicle outside his store via surveillance cameras. An employee of Cope's, Marnie Tapia, claims, he saw them coming,' which prompted him to arm himself with the shotgun that he keeps behind the counter.

    "In the footage of the exchange, Cope can be heard offering a brief warning. With the suspect continuing to aim his rifle at Cope, the storeowner then opened fire, hitting the would-be robber in the arm.

    "The wounded suspect then fled back to the vehicle, screaming, 'he shot my arm off, he shot my arm off.'

    "After scaring off the would-be robbers, Cope suffered a heart attack, though is reportedly recovering.

    "While the wounded suspect, yet to be named by officials, still remains hospitalized and in critical condition, the other three suspects were taken into police custody in the hospital parking lot and booked into the Robert Presley Detention Center for robbery and conspiracy. According to the Riverside County Sheriff’s Department, Justin Johnson, 22, of Inglewood, Jamar Williams, 27, of Los Angeles, and Davon Broadus, 24, of Las Vegas, are being held in lieu of $500,000 bail."

    ----------------------------------------------

    This was in Norco, CA. Had it had anything to do with NORINCO, the Clintons would want their share of the take.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-01-05-9701050114-story.html

    "ATLANTA — White House officials said they knew nothing about the slender Chinese man sipping coffee with President Clinton last February, except that he arrived at the executive mansion with a prominent Democratic fundraiser from Little Rock long friendly with the president.

    "For his part, Clinton later would relate that he recalled "literally nothing" about the foreign visitor with close-cropped hair who mingled among the dignitaries and political donors invited to the White House reception.

    "If they had checked with colleagues a few blocks down Pennsylvania Avenue at the Justice Department, the president and his aides might have found plenty of people who knew a lot about their mysterious guest, Wang Jun.

    "Wang, China's premier arms dealer, heads a company that had been the subject of a massive federal sting operation into its alleged scheme to sell 2,000 AK-47 assault rifles in the U.S. ultimately destined for gang members in California.

    "Defense Intelligence Agency officers just across the Potomac River at the Pentagon might have told them that U.S. national security experts had been trying to monitor Wang's secretive global activities for more than a decade, following the trail of Chinese arms deals with hostile regimes from Iran to Syria to Burma.

    "Wang is chairman of the Poly Group, the Beijing-based chief weapons trading arm of the Chinese People's Liberation Army. Regarded as one of the world's more powerful private citizens, Wang also is a director of the China International Trust & Investment Corp., China's primary overseas trading company.

    .....

    "Posing as Miami mobsters, federal agents set up a sting that over 16 months targeted executives of Poly and another state-controlled Chinese company, China North Industries Corp., or NORINCO.

    "At the center of the case was PTK's president, Robert Ma.

    "A slight, ingratiating man, Ma lived anonymously among the rows of identical townhouses in Atlanta's Brookhaven subdivision, where the company bought him a $273,000 home in June 1989. He drove a modest Ford Taurus to the downtown office. There he processed invoices for crateloads of rifles and ammunition.

    "A middleman targeted in the government sting was taped describing Ma as his partner in the smuggling deals, which he said could eventually yield hand-held rocket launchers, anti-aircraft missiles and silenced machine guns.

    "The crate of 2,000 AK-47s was shipped from China on Feb. 18 and arrived at the port of Oakland on March 18, when it was surreptitiously seized by Customs officials.

    "The middleman, who traveled from the U.S. to China to arrange that alleged sale, told undercover agents that he met with a Chinese official in charge of exporting weapons, and said that "the Chinese government knew exactly what was going on," a federal affidavit said.

    "Because Chinese military authorities strictly control arms exports, letting only selected factories produce weapons and assigning officers to monitor output so nothing goes astray, some U.S. officials have assumed that government leaders were aware of the smuggling plan."

    ------------------------------------------

    To cover his involvement, dear old Bill Clinton had NORINCO shipments banned, but everybody knew. The media covered-up for their fellow-traveler.

    "Presidential aides said they were unaware of Wang's ties to China's Communist government or his company's involvement in the gun-smuggling case." ;););););););):rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    ---------------
     
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  46. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Defensive shotgun techniques








    Old Gzr: Using the over the shoulder hold is a great way to break your nose/face.
     
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  47. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Buckshot loads against a car perform so-so -- nothing spectacular. They'll surely not penetrate an engine.



    Standard slug then a lightweight specialty slug:



    Shotgun slugs vs car engine:



    Sabot (pronounced saboh, long o; not sabbut like the guy in the video mispronounces) slugs out of a rifled barrel vs. foster slugs with rifling (grooves pressed into the soft lead of the slug). The latter is fired from a smooth-bore shotgun barrel. The fellow first shoots at 50 yards, then at 100 yrds. Dang it! -- I couldn't find any vids of cars being shot with brass slug sabot rounds. I thought that I'd find some. Thought that a year-plus ago I HAD found these ... maybe not. The sabot slugs weigh less; however they have greater velocity. I've seen videos of deer shot with sabot slugs and they drop as if someone hit them in the head with a ball-peen hammer. Ball peen hammer blow to the head = instant death.

     
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    1. Old Geezer
      Tangential thought: Stupid things can kill. Riding bicycles kills over 700 Americans per year. Poisons kill over 6,000. Back in the 50's and 60's hundreds of housewives died yearly by accidentally mixing chlorine cleaners and ammonia-based cleaners -- we've wised-up a lot since then. Terrorists are now using chlorine-based explosives so that bomb-sniffing dogs won't be able to detect them -- trained dog noses are tuned to nitrogenous compounds. Britain has banned sharp objects, so I wonder if they will ban files and wheel-grinders next. Here's how to make solid-type napalm. I'm NOT going to show how to make liquid napalm (doesn't use materials used in solid type) -- that's nasty.

       
      Old Geezer, Aug 27, 2023
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    2. Old Geezer
      Cut-shell shotgun shell. Turning birdshot into something like a slug, but not. Slugs are far more efficient for hunting, though cut-shell will devastate the human body at short distances / inside a house range.



      Gotta click on the following link -- doesn't show any preview image:

      https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0JDBs9JHDac



       
      Old Geezer, Aug 28, 2023
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  48. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I'm watching videos of new gun owners at the range ... almost all female. Almost all handguns. Seeing a bunch of weapon-handling that disturbs me. Seeing the "too much gun" phenomenon.

    Were I a gun dealer and were I seeing the "too much gun" phenom., I'd be recommending these people get small shotguns with folding stocks. Nothing wrong with the 20 ga. The .410 isn't adequate, but I swear that it would just have to do for many recoil-sensitive people. The ammo for the .410 is getting very short in supply. One may have to buy in bulk for the .410 -- I just looked online. Specialty ammo for the .410 should be a big consideration. Examples: .410 slugs; .410 three 000 buckshot balls in series. Yes, 000 buck, not just 00 buck -- they load this. A little .410 loaded with slugs and 000 buckshot is nothing to sneeze at! Scares me to think about getting hit with this ammo. A .410 slug has the energy of a .357 mag. bullet.

    One NEVER wants the shooter to be uncomfortable with their weaponry. Can't have that.

    Another matter, one always begins with .22 LR handguns. Never with full-recoil handguns until the basic skills are learned / ingrained. If somebody fumbles with automatics, always see how they do with revolvers.

    Any kids or mentally-compromised individuals in the home? If so, then a quick-access handgun box/safe is required -- it's a must-have. Again, I'm a big believer in gun safes. I don't want kids getting hurt (their friends come over to your house, they just do ... can't know if other folk's kids are disciplined). Too, I don't want buglers stealing weapons that they'll sell on the streets -- the genetic trash mustn't be armed.



     
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