Gm Mosquitoes

Good afternoon all,

https://gizmodo.com/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-are-breeding-in-brazil-1838146152

I've been following the GM mosquito research for non-scientific reasons.

The term "mating discrimination" probably explains why I stayed in the apartment and watched the game.

Note the article's use of the famous expression: "... was never supposed to happen".

At the end of the article, the site continues with others. Article "G" is about the CRISPR gene editing research.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/health/china-flu-virus-samples.html

Now read above link.

 

LOL! I remember actually discussing this with my daughter (biomedical engineer) about 3 years ago. She said at the time "well, this will go well." LOL! They will never learn.

Life, finds a way!

Dale

 

So what is the downside of a small percentage of genetically inferior mosquitoes breeding?

If they pass along the modified genes they are making them all weaker.

 

Good morning Snyper,

In the overall picture, it's the "concern" , the "fear", of weaponizing mosquitoes.

Once the lab's protocols and procedures are in place, evil matters can occur.

Let's hope our security apparatus is on full alert.

 

Sounds like needless worry to me.
In this example the only genes being passed along will make the mosquitoes weaker.

 

Good evening Snyper,

Yes, the current genes.

Yet, functioning labs with protocols and procedures could use different genes. This relates to, I believe ,the CRISP-R issue.

 

Hypothetically, using CRISP-R, scientist could cut a mosquitos DNA in a area say where the insects DNA allows the malaria virus to attach without killing the mosquito. Alter that section of DNA with that of say a primate so that the mosquito could be a carrier of Ebola virus, without negative affects to the mosquito. There by, weaponizing the mosquito. Other possibilities exist.

Dale

 

More speculation that has little to do with here and now.
I prefer to stick to reality rather than branching off into science fiction.

 

"Weaponized Mosquitoes" is still science fiction.

 

Genetic manipulation is going to be a massive part of things in the future. Like any new technology though it has the potential to do both great good and great harm. Also, like any other new thing, a lot of people are going to be afraid of it and denounce its use. We can refuse to like it but if we refuse to move ahead with it we will be crippling our future. When airplanes first took flight there were a lot of people that were rabidly against it and compared it to the building of the tower of Babel. as horrific as the atomic bomb was the nuclear science has offered a lot of good and if any country had banned research into it that the country would not be a world power now.

Genetic modifications and adaptations have been around as long as people have been above the hunter-gatherer level. Nearly ALL of the food that we eat is something that is VERY different from what it was originally. Corn was originally a grass with little seed pods the size of a small pencil and about an inch long. Wheat was always a grass but when we first started cultivating it, it was much smaller with seed heads that were tiny. We genetically modified them through selection and time while in each generation the plants with the largest pods were saved for seeds for next years crops.

In the future, we will be able to make these changes in years instead of centuries. as our world population grows we will either improve our food-producing abilities or die. We have tried the insecticide method of controlling the bugs that compete with us for our food crops and that feed upon us and spread disease. That hasn't worked well. DDT was a great pesticide until we realized that it was killing us too. Another problem with killing bugs with chemicals is that they are masters of genetic modification. Because their "generations" are so short any poison that we try to use will become decreasingly effective as the survivors breed and each generation is less susceptible to it. Putting poison into our environment to control bugs will over time poison our environment and people don't adapt nearly as fast as bugs.

Just like airplanes, genetic modification will be used for war. Airplanes have made our world a smaller place and allow us to do so many beneficial things. they also deliver bombs and are a primary way that we fight wars now. Antibiotics are another form of slow genetic modification. Unfortunately, that slow progression is like using poison to kill bugs. Drug-resistant strains of the diseases that kill us are adapting faster than our progress in finding and making new treatments via natural means. Now we are searching the Earth for new natural things that we can use and then improve on to fight our illnesses. Genetically modifying known things to do that job is going to over time replace the search for new natural sources.

I know that it is scary as hell. I understand that a lot of people can't understand the science and technology that makes this possible but the end result is no different from the modifications that we have done in the past. It is just a lot faster. Imagine a time when organs could be grown that matched your personal DNA so closely that they would be accepted by your body like they were YOU and there was no problem with rejection. now imagine that those organs and blood and skins for transplants could be grown on and in pigs for example. No more sitting on a list for years hoping for new kidneys or hearts for a transplant if yours crap out on you. Imagine grains that could grow in increasingly arid places and needed less and less water to survive.

Don't just see the weaponization of this technology. It is like any new thing and will open and offer wonders...along with terrors. Just like the antigun thing the problem is not the technology or the products. It is the people that are going to misuse and abuse it that are the problem and they can't be stopped.

 

TD, I like your description above but there is a big difference in hybridization and natural selection and the modern science of gene splicing. Hybridization has been in use long before Gregor Mendel ever crossed his first pea plant. Hybridization still relies on natural process to produce what humans want and as a natural act we don't always get what were after quickly. Hybridization also requires that we sexually breed within a species for viable offspring. Gene splicing, as with CRISP-R has none of those issues. Gene splicing takes the host DNA and you can splice ANY GENE SEGMENT from any species into the host DNA using CRISP-R. As you say, corn was hybridized from it's original form by taking desirable qualities and crossing them until you ended up with the varieties we have todays. But GMO corn has genes spliced into it's DNA (lots of species used: http://www.isaaa.org/gmapprovaldatabase/geneslist/default.asp ) from species in no way common to corn (Zea spp.) .

While we can hypothesize and test out what we think we will get with genetic modifications. Only time and sufficient testing can really tell. As with GMO corn modified to be resistant to rootworm with BT bacteria, we have NO idea what this toxin does to us or other lifeforms over time, and agriculture uses some of the safer modifications.

Like you said, Gene modification and CRISP-R are like a weapon, Good or evil comes from the heart and hands of the user.

My personal issues with gene splicing have nothing to do with it's use in preventing or curing diseases or modifying any existing lifeforms. Those modifications end when that lifeform dies. My issue is it's use in enhancing life at it's Germ Line, where a lifeform is created that can breed and pass on all of it's enhancements. At that level Eugenics is not only possible, but becomes a threat. Just my opinion.

Dale

 

Feel free to show any empirical evidence you have to refute the statement.

 

Since Bt is a naturally occurring bacteria that has never been shown to be harmful to anything other than some larval forms of insects, I'd say we do have long term knowledge to work with.

 

Malaria isn't viral.
It's caused by a parasite.

 

If there is no evidence of it ever happening it's safe to assume it's still fiction.

It also makes no sense to "weaponize" insects when it's far more simple to just use other means of spreading diseases.

I see no reason to fear something that's never been proven to have happened.

 

https://www.govexec.com/technology/...se-weaponized-mosquitoes-20-us-states/142383/


Good morning Snyper,

Glance at the above link. What represents goodness for society is the classical double-edged sword.

You had mentioned malaria. Above article references Yellow Fever. The principle's about the same.

 

Just because you think they might do it doesn't mean they are.

No one can prove they are.
No one has shown any logical reason for doing it either.

I'll stick to the proven facts rather than the paranoid speculation, which brings us back to where we started.

 

Someone else mentioned Malaria, and incorrectly called it a virus.

Your article is about exposing them to a naturally occurring bacteria that only affects insects.

It's not "the same principle" since the original premise was concerning "genetically modified" insects being used to infect humans through gene splicing.

I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying over it happening.

 

So you would not wish to have your genes fixed if you had an inherited physical problem like hemophilia or just a short lifespan and would instead happily pass it on to your children and their descendants? What would be so bad if you could fix people with 75 IQs so their children could have a normal intelligence instead of losers breeding more people that will never have much of a life and have almost nothing to contribute to our culture.

This is a little like the people that refuse to have their children treated for cancer because it is against their religion. Eugenics has been associated with things that were not actually Eugenics. Now people assume that any effort to improve peoples genetic problems is somehow like Hitler's insanity. THAT was not eugenics it was bigotry based genocide carried out to total insanity. one time people thought that bathing too often was bad for you. Being clean whether it is your body or your genes is a good thing.

I understand your fear and what you are talking about. As soon as we reach the level of this to actually be able to make big changes in people some monster is going to start making super soldiers. there is no telling the horrors that will be created. This is, unfortunately, Pandora's Box situation. The box is now opening and it is too late to shut it back up. If the US, for example, refuses to allow this to be studied we will be helpless when an enemy uses it to attack us. It's like the atomic bomb. Any country that doesn't have it is susceptible to being attacked and squashed.

Look at the little Fat man in North Korea and what he has done. Why is he untouchable and Saddam Hussain was killed for less? The same thing happened to Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. If Iraq had had the atomic bomb Hussain would still be in power and alive. I don't want to be a second class country that is only free until someone decides to take us out. Gene modification whether we like it or not is the next atomic bomb. If you don't have it you will be in trouble.

It is frightening as hell but we will either move forward or fall behind and then fall in general. I assure you that Russia and China are going full tilt after this.

 

TD, I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or I didn't make myself clear. I have NO issues with genetic manipulation as it's used in Somatic Gene Therapy, which includes curing cancer, etc.

I do have issues with genetic manipulation as it could be used in Germline genetics.

A geneticist explained it to me this way:
Hybridization is advanced timeline evolution.
Somatic Genetics is advanced medicine.
Germline genetics is playing GOD.

I agree with him. Germline genetics are expensive and will be controlled by the rich. Where would it go from there.



Dale

 

Your right,

I should have said Dengue Fever, yellow fever, West Nile Virus, Rift Valley fever or encephalitis instead.

 

If you consider 25 to 50 years of partial study long term, sure, long term.
I won't start on natural substances being "safe" because it's natural. Cyanide is also a natural substance.

 

I do.
Show some studies that prove it's harmful.

 

It wouldn't change the end result at all.

 

I don't quote lots of things.
That's not proof of anything.

No one has shown any evidence to the contrary, so I don't see why you think this repetition will change the outcome.

Why would anyone waste the time it takes to worry about it at all?
The answer is the same.
(They shouldn't)

 

Your not really worth that time, and I just don't think your a geneticist or MD, so back to my ignore list.

 

ALL advances in all areas are very expensive at first and so the rich are the first to benefit. That is no reason to not want to advance. Heart transplants were that way to some extent and are now much more available to people of more modest means. What I see in the comparisons between the germ-line and the somatic mutations is that one treats the symptom in someone that has the problem and the other treats the disease by eliminating it from half of the next generation. I can't see where allowing a disease to be untreated except in a symptomatic fashion in generation after generation when it can be eliminated over time. Even after they were beginning to find treatments to many diseases they still worked to find a VACCINE that totally prevented it rather than just being satisfied with treating it when people got sick.

My Grandfather died from simple pneumonia. They didn't have antibiotics that were effective then. My Dad had pneumonia several times but the antibiotics worked for him and he survived. I got a pneumonia vaccine and will never have simple pneumonia. My grandkids will never have it. I'm really glad that they didn't stop researching when they got penicillin. It would have saved my Grandfather. It might not have saved my Father.

Stopping research because you are afraid of it or because only the rich will benefit from it at first will never work. Once it is started you are only kidding yourself if you think that you can stop it. We tried that with the bomb...it didn't work.

 

Good morning Snyper,

I made the mistake of not being clearer.

The principle I was referring to was the "weaponizing" of mosquitoes, whether by parasites, viruses, bacteria or something else.

"Proof" and "evidence" just might not be as universal as you believe.

 

I'm not wanting to be rude, but do you understand the difference between Somatic genetic manipulation (which I don't object to) and Germ line genetic manipulation? Somatic gene manipulation covers curing all the things you brought up and so much more.
Germ line manipulation is the stuff of science fiction, but is now in the possibility of reality. Germ line could easily be used to increase brain synaptic activity (faster and more efficient problem solving), increase mitochondrial activity and mass, increase in fatty acid oxidation, increase in oxygen uptake (all making a person stronger, faster, etc.).
Even those germline manipulations I don't have any issues with.
The manipulations I have issues with would be when Germ line manipulations were used and DNA from other species is added to the human genome. Manipulations could include things to radically alter our eyes for greatly enhanced night vision, enhanced sense of smell, re-emergence and enhancement of dormant genes to provide webbed hands and feet, the ability to breath water, the ability to produce and/or excrete toxins and so many more.

I believe these and many more will be researched and experimented with. I also believe that research should be highly monitored and limitations set. Here in the USA, doctors have to get permission to conduct medical experimentation on us. That's not the case in many other countries.

Germ line manipulation is conducted primarily in vitro on human fetuses or reproductive material. If a fetus is just biological material and not a baby, and the mother can do what she wishes with it (including selling it) The corporations will purchase that material and what they could create would not be legally classifiable as a human. What then? Legal slaves? created work forces? Created militaries? Patents are already on the books and recognized by the courts for lab created/altered lifeforms, so why not human hybrids.

On germline manipulation, I like a movie quote. "The scientist were so caught up in if they could do something, they didn't take the time to ask, if they should do it.

Just my opinion.

Dale

 

Good morning Dale,

The "problem" still remains. The highly-monitored and limited experiments only applicable within the US. Other nations could do otherwise.

Is this not parallel to global pollution caused by using coal ?

 

Your right. It is. When the Japanese reveal that they have recreated a mammoth, the world will get a peek of corporate rights and international patents dealing with germ line genetics.
When the science kicks in and humans are artificially hybridized, we will want our science fiction back.
Americans and Europeans both tend to have a stylized perspectives of humanity and the associated values placed on human life. For most of the world, life is cheap. Manufactured life may be cheaper.
Only time will tell.

Dale

 

Dale, I don't think that any reasonable person wants to see weaponized humans created. A lot of the other Science fiction things though might be interesting and worthwhile. I see the human species at a crossroad right now. We can move ahead or we can fall back. One of the unfortunate problems that our current level of civilization is creating is that we have redefined the parameters for what exactly in the fittest in the "survival of the fittest" evolutionary question.

Evolution is a natural progression that is ruled by a simple question and answer. How many of a person's progeny survive to be in the next generation is the simple question. In the past, intelligence, strength, resistance to disease, natural physical and mental traits that allowed you to avoid predators etcetera guided us to what we are as a species. Even things like foresight and what we think of as common sense were advantages that led to more of your children surviving.

Now the weak are taken care of. The stupid, the lazy, those with no foresight and no interest in the future of their children are not just allowed but in some senses encouraged to have as many kids as possible. Those kids are then supported and helped to grow up and do the same. We as a species are getting weaker. When I was a kid the PTA sold peanut brittle in school for fundraisers. They handed out peanuts on airplanes. My Granddaughter is forbidden to bring a peanut butter sandwich in her lunch to school and peanuts are verboten on airplanes. This is because evidently there are a growing number of children that are lethally allergic to peanuts to the point that even being in the room with them might be deadly.

In the past, this sort of problem had a very sad cure. these kids died young before they could get old enough to have children. Now with epi-pens and all sorts of restrictions, they are surviving and their numbers in each forthcoming generation will grow. In the past, the inferior specimens of all creatures were weeded out naturally. The human species has stopped that weeding.

I'm not cruel enough to want to see these children in any way restricted but if we don't address this problem it will eventually address it naturally. Mindless violence is a growing problem. It is going to get worse and it is going to happen FAST in the evolutionary sense. Men that are violent and don't care at ALL about their children have a LOT of them. They have become so common that there are even names now for the women these men seek out. they are called baby mamas. The man has no interest in the woman or the children and the results are like a growing cancer in our genome.

When you add up all the many things bad that are growing in number in each generation and then realize that at the same time we are removing the smartest and most productive from that next generation it just can't be good. One of the problems that reliable birth control have placed on us is that smart people that want to offer their children the best possible future don't have more kids than they can take care of. Unfortunately, they don't even have enough to replace their numbers in the next generation. This has only been going on for a couple of generations but it has already started showing its effects.

As a species, if we can avoid TEOTWAWKI genetic modification may be our only chance for survival. We need to get off this planet. We may need to make changes in order to do that successfully. If we don't it isn't a matter if, but rather when the next extinction-level event slams into this death trap we call our home happens man may well be like the dinosaurs.

PS: I love the dialog that we are having. your thoughts are excellently stated and have led me down new paths. I appreciate your time and thoughtful responses. I learn so much more from discussions like this than from the more emotional responces. Like you, I have a lot of concerns about how this new ability will be used. I'm sure that mankind will go down all the darkest paths. that seems to just be our way. For me, the fear of possible issues is less than the concern about the disastrous effects that will certainly overtake us via natural or manmade apocalypse if we don't address the many rising problems we will face in the future. I see the survival of humanity as a species as a sort of ticking time bomb right now. We can ignore it, try to fix it or run from it...

 

I didn't think you could refute anything with actual data.
It's better if you ignore me.

 

I'm still waiting for some empirical evidence.
Feel free to speculate all you like.
It makes no difference to me.

 

You were as clear as you ever are.
There's no point in repetition.

Without it there's nothing but speculation and paranoia.
Get back to me when there's something real to show.

 

The MOST honest statement ever made on this forum. I simply don't understand why the nice moderators don't "BAN" Snyper.

He contributes zero of value to the forum, and is un-necessary argumentative.

This is how he is on every forum he is a member.

 

Click on his name. When the box pops up click on IGNORE and forget about him. Then you don't have to see his responses and the rest of us don't have to see your responses to him. He is just like an unruly little brat looking for attention.

 

I'm less of a troll than you.
I don't constantly whine and try to get you banned.
I don't tell others to ignore you.

You just can't handle the truth, so you pretend to be a victim.

Why do you feel compelled to lie?
I've never said anything about you that isn't 100% true.

 

Speculation isn't "knowledge".

LOL
Go with the flow or go away?
I'm not the one getting my panties in a wad because someone dares to have a different opinion.

 

I have had him on "IGNORE" for months. The problem is that if someone replies to his post then is shows up. Just as yours shows up in this post, as I respond you.