10mm Or 9mm

I lean towards the 10mm for my carry over 9x19. Imo it is powerful enough for a survival situation and it has plenty of knock-down power. I'm not saying the 9 isn't effective. What is y'all's opinion?

 

I’ve seen a LOT of people shot. Winning lethal confrontations has little to do with calibers until you bump up to something serious like a slug or rifle round.

Other than that it’s all about good awareness, judgement, a willingness to act and precision placement of the round.

 

When I first started shooting I was more concerned about concealed carry and personal defense. At that time there was also some doubt about whether or not the 10mm would be around long term. I can't say that I really looked that hard, but it seemed like all of the 10mm models were full size. I never saw anything that was a smaller frame designed for concealed carry. So I started with a 9mm that I really loved (still do today); and sent thousands of rounds down range practicing. The 9mm would still be my choice over the 10mm. You could also make the argument that the 9mm has less recoil, and a secondary benefit, the ammo is a little cheaper, and maybe more readily available. With changes in ammunition I am told by people who study it that the 9mm has improved dramatically. Penetration on both calibers is very similar.

Now we are getting into the realm of which child do you love the most. There is no right or wrong; purely personal preference.

 

lol I'll comment to the initial question 10mm or 9mm. My preference is the 10. The arguments go both ways and as Morgan said it's purely personal preference. I am glad to see the 10mm experiencing a bit of resurgence and has even tempted me with the consideration of purchasing another one.

 

I standardized on the 9mm back decades ago due to cheap ammo from around the world, i.e. military surplus from Mexico, Egypt, Indonesia, ... . In this era, I'd pick the 10mm. My Browning HP is mega-accurate (even though I've shot it a bit loose). With double-stack mags, one can put several rounds in the right places on multiple assailants. Contrary to popular belief, you gotta do the same with a .45. I've no experience with the .357 SIG, however I believe I could come to like that one. Back in my day, it was the .38 Super. I like the .357 mag. revolver / carbine, so ... .

One is in deep, deep trouble if he or she can't get to their battle rifle. Old saying, "A pistol beats a bayonet."

Aimed fire. Keep shooting until the bad guy stops moving. Post SHTF, put a couple in their head.

 

The thing to this question is are you actually talking about a 10mm or are you referingto the .40 caliber. The REAL 10mm was a beast designed for stopping power. Unfortunatly like the 41 mag that was also designed for usable power it has recoil to match that knock down power. When the 40s first came out they were hotter and the manufacturers used the 9mm frames and guns. It was not a good marriage if you were going to shoot it much as in police use needs. So they lightened the loading. Personally the small gain that you ended up with isn't worth the fact that you can get 9mm ball ammo so cheap and practice more. At about the same time as they wee stepping down the 40 loads they were also greatly improving the 9mm loads and the bullets you could have in them. In my openion if you want more power than the 9mm the 357 sig is a better choice but even that has its issues. If my life was on the line give me a real 10 I'm not bothered by recoil all that much.

PS: The statement at the bottom is not my openion nor do I agree.

 

Many Alaskan Hunting Guides (Not All) are switching to the 10mm for problems (Grizzly or Alaska Coastal Brown Bear problems).

I go back to the very beginning with the 10mm, and current using a Kimber "CAMP GUARD " and I really like the Round Butt. I use the extra special-super'duper-ultra high performance "UNDERWOOD" Xtreme Hunter ammo (1,425 fps).

That said, I just purchased (2) Two Glock 19X tools for urban problems (as it appears I'll be a city'boy at some point in the next few years......SADLY).

 

The 10mm auto is a beast and in an automatic, I think it might be the best realistic handgun out there for dangerous game backup. Jeff Cooper was involved in the design of the original Bren Ten and it was designed for police use but the FBI weenies couldn't handle it just as with the 41 magic sorts of died on the vine. It really IS a little bit too much for just people shooting though...just like the 44 magnums.

 

It's overkill for most self defense.
"Survival situation" is too vague to have any real meaning.
"Knock down power" is a myth.

 

I don't own a 9 mm...of any kind. I never took to the 9mm though I've shot a few belonging to others.
I've shot a Browning High Power and like it much better than all these half plastic guns...but no ambition to own a 9mm.

I own a .40S&W and it has a stout but manageable recoil. I bought it from someone needing some cash ...but don't use it much. Roll my own ammo for this as well as .357 Mag...

I prefer to carry my .357 Mag wheel gun most of the time with speed loaders. Practice mostly with inexpensive .38 Specials.
Have the lever rifle for this calibration too.

Texdanm is correct about the .41 Magnum as I own two of such handguns...and you will not be doing that many follow up shots...it is a beast. This is why I also bought the matching Henry lever rifle in the same calibration...recoil is manageable in such an rifle.

10mm is a .40 on steroids. I never desired to own one of these but had I one of them would roll my own ammo for it....in like manner to how I never desired to own a .40 S&W.
However ..I do not believe anyone will be needing cash and selling me their 10mm any time soon. The 10mm never seemed to catch on as did the .40 S&W.



Personal protection ...I would think the ability to have good follow up shots with accuracy and manageability would be important versus raw all out power.

Hunting ..particularly dangerous game....power might be more a priority...first shot solid penetration..and energy delivery...that sort of thing.

Now up north ....Canada and or Alaska...out in the bush....I could see where the 10 mm would be more desirable than the 9mm...or even the .40 S&W...but were I up there I would prefer one of the more stout wheel guns....41 Magnum and above.

Nonetheless..I never had any desire for a 10mm.

Agree with one of the other members in that better bullet designs of today have made many calibers more efficient.
Though I never took to them...I was a bit surprised when the .380 made a comeback.
I attribute this to compactness and better bullet designs ...more efficient than in years past

It is of course a personal preference.


My non Ishmaelite .02,

Watcherchris

 

what is it and where do I get one LOL. I should really pick up a 10 mm, I'll look over the police trade ins next time I get a list.

 

I always hoped that they would come out with an auto 357 type round. Maybe something like a 30 carbine round made with hollow point bullets in a 1911sized handgun would have been an exceptional compromise between delivered knockdown power and recoil.

Since that hasn't happened yet I still will carry my old Ruger Security 6 357 mag wheel gun with a Ruger 9mm for my back up pistol. The 45acp is a good round and has good stopping power but I really prefer to shoot rounds that are supersonic rather than subsonic.

The new hotter 9mm with JHP bullets have good power delivery and I have to say that in some situations I will slap a mag full of FMJ in. The 9mm with +p speeds and FMJ bullets will go right through a car and bite someone that is hiding behind it. It is for this reason that among my other ammo I have a thousand rounds of military 357 mag ball ammo with their hardball FMJ bullets.

I always sort of wanted a Model 23 Glock 40 S&W. It can be changed to a 357 Sig with a simple barrel change. I have always had a soft spot for guns with multiple cartridge flexibilities. My first two handguns were both Ruger convertibles. a 22lr/22mag Single 6 and then a 357/9mm Blackhawk convertible.

 

They did tex, Coonan had a semiauto in .357mag and AMT had the Automag in 30 carbine. A friend had both and I got to shoot them. the Coonan was sweet. it's big and heavy and really tamed the recoil. the AMT was a flame throwing beast, all of that extra powder intended for a carbine length barrel would let out a huge fireball. It was a blast too shoot.

You can find both used but they are usually pretty salty when it comes to price.

I like .45 and .40S&W, have one 9mm and no 10mm - yet. You mentioned the Bren Ten which I always thought was an awesome looking gun. Hey Miami Vice is what helped the 10mm catch on back in the day and to sell a lot of those Bren's. 3 or 4 years back, Vltor announced they were bringing back the Bren as the Fortis, improved to resolve the original issue of frame cracking. I was pumped and planned to buy one. but then around 2016 it all went silent. Vltor claimed had to do with "economic downturn" which I find hard to believe as lots of people were pumped to buy them. I'm guessing there were either issues with manufacturing or the cost to manufacture pushed the price point higher than planned. Though I still doubt they would have had issues selling them.

I love my Sig's so thinking that P220 in 10mm might be the right addition for me.

 

I think that a little reloading could make the 30 carbines round into a true beast of a pistol round. I have read of safe reloads that topped 1900 FPS out of the Automag that lessened the deafening bark and the bills of fire. It was also supposed to be relatively nice to shoot with easily handled recoil.

The Coonan is the STUFF though!! They say that it tames the recoil of the 357 mags and I personally never thought it recoiled all that much. they say that it will even shoot 38 specials.

 

I have never shot a 10 mm how does it compare to 44 magnum in power, recoil etc? My personal 9mm doctrine is to use it to put lead on target to discourage my opponent until I can get one of my real guns lol If you can show me a semi with power at least equal to 357 magnum(44 would be better) with the capacity of a 9mm I would add it to my battery of arms fairly quickly.

 

I believe that if you look up the ballistics on the 357Sig round it is very close to those of the 357Mag.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-357-SIG-compare-to-a-357-Magnum

 

Sonofliberty, It is hard to compare the 10mm to the 44 mag where just recoil is considered because the different type of guns offers different recoil. An automatic delays spread and to some extent softens recoil. A single action takes a lot of the recoil and turns it into an upward and rotational sort of thing while the Double action is more straight back and the rigid frame transfers the force more directly to the hand. To me, none of them have a painful recoil. When My Daughter was 9 she loved them all.

 

CG: I am right with you. I cut my teeth on a P228, 9mm. Still my all-time favorite gun. I have a P220 in 45 ACP. I was very lucky to get it. Match grade barrel. Shoots like a dream. I have always preferred the 45 over the 10mm. From all of the tests I have seen they are so close ballistically I see no need to buy a 10mm. Yes, the 10 is a little more powerful, but ammo is not as readily available. I don't care for Glocks. They don't fit my hand well, so those are out. If I need something more robust I will go for the .45 ACP.

 

I think you will find the 10mm is much closer to a 45ACP than a 44 magnum. Here is one guy's opinion, and I think his ballistics are correct. You can find a lot of comparisons between 10mm and 45 ACP on You Tube. The recoil on the 10mm is a little heavier than 45 but not much.

 

That video reflects what I suspected to be the case. Thanks. I will go and shoot the 357 sig this weekend to see what I think.

 

The FBI considered adopting the 10 mm as their service round, but quickly realized it had too much recoil to be practical for most self defense scenarios.

That's what lead to the development of the 40 S&W, which is simply a shortened 10 mm.

 

Which one can you shoot the best if you can't hit it you can't hurt it.

That should be your question.

 

I have been practicing hitting a small two inch diameter target. Firing as fast as I can yank the trigger. I practice this drill a lot. I generally yank the trigger four times as fast as possible, then take one breath and yank it the trigger four more times.

I have two things that I am attempting to instill into my "Auto Response". One yanking the trigger as fast as possible, and also keeping all the shots in the two inch target. I call this my "Yanker" Drill.

See I want to stop this silliness of squeezing the trigger. Drill is performed with my left shoulder touching the target, body nearly facing the target, muzzle one to three inches from the two inch target. I have nearly 60 years of "Auto-Defaulting" into the "Weaver Stance" that was popular in the 1950's. Not a good stance for "Smooching" distance.

Yes........this is on one of my private ranges, using several different "Tools".

 

I read that Bill Jordon could hit a aspirin with regularity at ten feet by point shooting, he preferred a .357 mag revolver.

 

The biggest difference between the 10mm and the 45ACP is the velocity and the damage caused in the body by the hydro shock effect. To get an idea of the difference to compare a 38 special to a 357 mag and between a 44 special and a 44 Mag. The ONLY difference is in the velocity of the bullet and I assure you it is BIG. The recoil is similar mostly because you are shooting them out of different guns. A 10mm shot in a 1911would have a more notable difference but in general, autos do somewhat tame recoil by spreading it out over time instead of handing it to you all at once.

Taylor KO factor
9mm...7.43
357sig...8.36
40s&W...10.15
45ACP...12.44
10mm...13.33

 

Taylor KO factor

.357 mag revolver = 11.3

 

44 mag?

 

The formula for the Talor KO factor is


That is the weight of the bullet in grains times the velocity in feet per second times the diameter in decimal inches divided by 7000. The 7000 is how many grains there are in a pound.

https://n4lcd.com/calc/

Understand, this is basically just an energy calculation and doesn't take into account things like hydro shock, fragmentation of the bullets, or the benefit of hollow points.

It has its oddities. For example, a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher at 100 miles an hour would calculate to have a Talor KO of 145 or so. The difference is that the area of the impacting surface of the baseball is bigger and that spreads out the area of impact lowering the PSI in the impact area and reducing the penetration.

 

It really depends on what I am most likely to be defending myself against. For walking around the city my choice is the 9MM +P. Were I to be walking through the woods I'd go for the 10MM.

More important to me is the ammo. I live in Alaska so multiple layers of clothing are common, therefore I carry the Hornady Critical Duty to prevent the hollow point from plugging up. I carry a spare magazine with Extreme Penetrator ammo. This is because there are moose and bear wandering around the city and they can be a problem. Two legged problems are far more likely so that is what am ready for.

My reasoning for 9MM is thus. It costs less so I can shoot more. I can get the second aimed shot off faster. They tend to hold more ammo. It will do the job if I do my part. Shot placement is more important than the round.

 

Thanks, I just found this site and lo and behold, I stumbled across a few old friends.

 

Well, well, well!!! Look who is here! I'm another one who is glad to see you. You are definitely an asset to any forum! Welcome to here, Caribou!


.

 

Welcome to here, Caribou.

 

Welcome from Missouri, Caribou. Good to have you with us.

 

I also prefer the 10mm for its greater power. We're in the minority but I would choose 10mm over 9mm.

 

Never had much use for a 10 mm round or gun. The ammo is not as common as is 9mm....357Magnum, or .45 ACP.

Have a .40 S&W but seldom use it. Roll my own ammo for this calibration.

I like the .357Magnum as it will shoot .38 Specials as will also my Henry lever rifle in the same calibration.


For heavy work I go to my .41 Magnum....of which also I have the lever rifle in the same calibration.

.41 Magnum...like 10mm is not a common round and henceforth I have taught myself to reload for this calibration as well as put back plenty of brass for it. Common sense if one wants to say in business here.

Also when you get into the big magnums....they do not come factory in boxes of 50...but instead boxes of 20...meaning costs.

Again...reloading solves this issue.

.41 Magnum is as stout as I care to go.



For myself ..I am not fond of the 9mm...but that is an individuals decision. I like the .38 Special for practice.....lots of it.

.357 Magnum for carry in a GP 100 revolver.

I was just never interested in the 10mm...but have studied the charts for it in my Hornady Book of Cartridge Reloading as I have many other calibrations. All of it good informations to know and by which to compare.

I may not have this correct..but do not think 10mm comes in a common rifle chambering...as does .357 or .41 magnum etc etc.

Having never owned a 10mm or such an firearm..I am not for certain. Does 10 mm come in boxes of 50 or boxes of 20 rounds???

Ahhhhhh….ok.....looked it up...boxes of 50 rounds are commonly available.


My non Ishmaelie .02,
Watcherchris

 

IMHO a comparison of 10mm and 9mm isn't really apropos. I would use them for different purposes. I would consider the 10mm more of a caliber used in the back country for personal protection against 4 legged predators. The 9mm would be used in an urban environment for personal protection against 2 legged predators.

Maybe a better comparison would be 10mm vs. 45 ACP vs. 357 magnum. All could be used for personal protection in most environments each having its own advantages.

 

Agree with Morgan 101's premise..

Which Is why I purchased a .41 Magnum when a fellow at work wanted to sell one as he was needing cash.

I never wanted a 44 Magnum for some reason.....but also for some reason I felt a .41 Magnum would suffice for my needs.

10 mm is indeed a stout cartridge and would be better suited to four legged wildlife. I feel the same about the .41 Magnum...and will on occasion carry concealed in an under arm rig....but usually I am carrying my .357 Magnum...on my hip.

I feel that the .357 Magnum is sufficient for my needs...in personal protection.....and carry with me speed loaders.
I would not want the .357 Magnum for certain of four legged wildlife..and feel much more confident in the .41 Magnum for that role...also carrying speed loaders in .41 Magnum.

As powerful as it is close up...I would also not want the .45 ACP for use against four legged wildlife and would gladly default once again to the .41 Magnum.

But...all of these are individual choices as well as responsibilities...Choose wisely.

My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

For CCW I prefer 9mm, just for ease of concealment and familiarity with the round and what it can and can't do. In the woods I prefer to carry a rifle cartridge firearm. Usually either 5.56mm Nato or 7.62mm Nato.

 

Tell that to a bear that you just shot with a 22 LR round. Indeed survival situations vary a lot from place to place but if you live in Bear country knockdown power has real meaning. Basically, it can mean the difference between you eating the bear and the bear eating YOU! For two-legged critters, the 10mm is a little much. I prefer something with a little less recoil and will depend on better shot placement and faster second shots rather than just pure one shot power. Don't kid yourself though the wound that that 10mm will do is vastly more devastating than the one from a 9mm or a 40 cal. It is almost like comparing a 38 special to a 44 mag.

 

Where did Snyper's post go???

 

No one mentioned bears in the post I quoted.
Context matters.

That's the same thing I said.

It's right where it's always been since it was posted 5 months ago.

 

Yeppers I do agree that the 10mm is a little much for defensive purposes against two-legged beasts. In general, I think of self-defense and survival as two slightly different things. self-defense is like war and something that has to do with people fighting with people whereas survival is a much wider thing where the beasts that you might have to deal with have to be considered. Where I live a 44mag or a 10mm is mostly overkill. About the only use, we might have for a 44mag is for hunting.

Knockdown power is both a matter of physics and very real AND if you watch TV the idea that a bullet can knock a person back and off their feet is a myth. That is also physics. Even a 200-grain bullet traveling at a couple of thousand FPS doesn't generate enough energy to move a 150-pound mass very much. If it was shot into a 150-pound sandbag that was laying on a table it wouldn't move it very much. The "knockdown" that is referred to is about how much shock and damage it can do to a normal human body and what are the chances of it causing an immediate stopping of aggression.

Knockdown is a strange thing when you are referring to people. Depending on mental responses people are at times both easier to kill than an animal and at other times harder to kill. People sometimes have been known to go down and DIE from a flesh wound from a 22LR. They have watched too much TV and when shot they are so sure that it will kill them that they go into shock and can die

On the other hand, a human berserker, whether chemically driven or just mentally driven can absorb and continue to fight long past the point when they should lay down and die. there was a case many years ago where a guy jacked up on PCP took 6 rounds from a 44mag in the chest and still managed to get up close and continue an attack on a cop. there was a case in Houston where a cop was into a second magazine in a Browning hi-power and had put 17 or 18 rounds into a fired-up junkie attacker before the guy gave up.

There are a lot of myths ABOUT knockdown power. In the end, knockdown has as much to do with bullet placement as it does with the actual power of the round. The difference is that the more powerful the round the larger the area of damage and the less precise the placement has to be.

This entire thing is a fascinating subject. One of the things that some police training tried to cover now is to show the cops films that are actual footage of shootings and to educate them on just how hard it actually can be to kill a person. the purpose of this is to hopefully help them stay calm if they get shot and not get shocky. These days if someone can survive long enough to get to a hospital they stand an excellent chance of surviving their injury. This knowledge can also keep them in the fight an hopefully they can remove the threat of further injury from an assailant. There are lots of stories of men shot on the battlefield by rifle rounds packing a lot more power than any pistol caliber that went on to do remarkable things even after several hits.

 

If that is the same incident we were told about when I went thru security training in the Navy, and it sounds like it, the only thing that finally stopped the guy was 2 or 3 rounds to the 'ol brain pan. This is also where the NCO's teaching the course pointed to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm in inflicting damage and they then equated damage to stopping and therefore why our beloved .45ACP was the better choice. I wouldn't want to get shot with either but looking at the results of all kinds of different things I've shot at over the years that .45 just always seem to make a bigger hole and tears up more stuff. And I'm talking main stream off the shelf common loads, not some special home brewed load with a $5 bullet and hiroshima hot powder.

Dale, and any others that are also in the "got my ass shot club", care to relay what your experience was like during and right afterwards? Do you know any specifics like caliber, distance you were hit from? Care to give commentary on if you feel like it had enough "knockdown power" or did you soldier on like the Energizer Bunny like nothing happened.

 

Getting shot SUCKS!!!

I have had the misfortune of being shot in 2 incidents (total of 4 rounds). Both times I was shot with rifles and can't forget the details.
The first incident NEVER HAPPENED as far as my country is concerned.
Incident specifics: Distance was approximately 12 meters
Weapon was a older model AK47....7.62x39
Struck by 3 rounds in the chest on body armor with steel plate. It saved my life.
For me, when things go bad, everything slows down... That moment was very slow. I watched the individual that shot me come to shoulder and pull the trigger and I couldn't come to target on him fast enough. The first round was low on the plate and on my left side. Felt pain and numbness in stomach and left leg got weak. Second round was dead center at bottom of my heart. Lost all air. Third round splattered on plate at the top of the plate in the top right of the plate. Pushed me further down. Splatter fragments flew into my neck and jaw.
I was on the ground, fighting for air. A team mate ran up, got me to my feet and we began to run.
My evaluation: The 7.62x39 FMJ at close distance has more than enough "knockdown power" for a human target.

That was harder to write than I thought it would be.

Second incident was a training accident during a live fire exercise. Team mate was running on my left side and behind me when he had a accidental discharge (weapon was OFF SAFE and he had his finger in the trigger well).

Incident specifics: Distance was less then 10 meters.
Weapon was an M16A2....5.56mm Nato
Struck by 1 round of 55 gr. FMJ in my left foot. Round struck my 2nd metatarsal and fractured into many pieces, but the core retained and embedded into the steel insert in my combat boot. I heard the discharge, felt a burn then pain in my Left foot and feel when my foot hit the ground. Unable to stand without assistance.
My evaluation: The 5.56mm Nato round lacks "knockdown power" and depends more on proper shot placement for lethal effect.


In my "Professional opinion" if you intend to kill a large caliber man, use a large caliber bullet! Professionals depend on there knowledge, skills and abilities but sometimes, amateurs get "lucky".

In my first incident, I was the professional. I had done everything right and if an attached officer would have followed training and kept his cool, the "incident" would have never happened. He spooked and started a fire fight. It cost him his life. If that would have been all, that would have been OK. His failure led to the deaths of 3 of my brothers. That wasn't OK.

Dale

 

I can perfectly relate to your experience there. Even 9mm HURT (I was taking 2 shots on the chest), but anyway that was the day when DuPont™ Kevlar® save my life.