410 Ar Platform New Versatility

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by TMT Tactical, Mar 17, 2020.

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  1. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Something I just learned about. The AR style 410 shoguns. A 410 slug is a man stopper. 410 buckshot is also a nasty round too. Even birdshot at close range (within a house ) is something most folks would pass on. The recoil is very manageable and it would be adequate for both home defense, small to medium game animals. You could even use it to hunt birds. 5 round mag fed (bigger mags available) semi-auto. Fast reloads, light weight ammo (in comparison to 12 ga.). This is now my new choice for a home defense weapon, along side my pistol.

     
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  2. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    I wouldn't bet my life on one.
    There are too many good choices available.
     
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  3. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Snyper, what would be your choice and why. Many are becoming interested in firearms and need informed options. So fire away (could not resist).
     
  4. Jon Sophic

    Jon Sophic Member
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    Very intriguing. I would love to test one out...after the Corona-virus pandemic ends, of course. As of now, I'm relying on my M4, Mossberg, Glock, and Mosin M-38.
     
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  5. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Jon, not as a challenge to your selection but as an aid to the many new members or to the members that are just now considering a firearm, would you care to tell us why your selected these firearms and what benefits they offered. Thanks
     
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  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like it. I have a 410 right beside me right now. With some of the new defense loads that came out for the Taurus Judge 410/45 LC revolver, it is even more effective than it was. That said the regular 410 slug at 1/4 oz (110 grains) at a factory load giving 1775 FPS gives it a Taylor KO factor of 11 that is actually in the 357 mag. area of power. I think that I would bet my life on it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  7. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    A .410 slug has the energy of a .357.

    I prefer the .357. Revolver or lever rifle, the .357 is dynamite.

    A truly effective small bore shotgun is the 20 ga. Full bore shotgun, the 12 ga is great.

    The 10 ga unfortunately has faded away. The king 10 has been nudged aside by the 3" and 3 1/2" 12 ga. mag. The 16 ga has been replaced by the 20 ga. 3" mag. Twenty gauge Brenneke slugs are >.60 cal. deer-slayers and 20 ga. sabots are .45 cal 250 grain killers (at 100 yards out, it still has 1200 ft. lb.s of energy) with rifle accuracy when fired out of rifled barrels. The 16 was a sweet girl -- God only knows how many geese and turkeys she put on dinner tables.

    The .410 has its uses, however it can really only be thought of as a "specialty caliber" shotgun. And .410 is a caliber. Give me a .41 mag revolver -- that's one REAL performer. Lever in .41 mag, wow! Wish Henry levers in .41 mag. had receiver cartridge-loading side gates.

    I simply can't get on board the .410 shotgun train. Revolver in .410 for snakes? Maybe. I'd still rather have a 20 ga. The .410 full-length shotgun for snakes? Yes, I guess. A .410 with three 00 buckshot balls for self-defense? No. Small shotgun, give me a 20. A slug out of a 20 ga. through a human's chest or gut will cause catastrophic injury or death. A soft 20 slug makes a .44 mag. look puny.

    Buckshot? Use a 12 gauge.

    Someone breaks into my castle, quite frankly I want to drop them on the spot. If they live or die, that's up to God. Me, I don't care. If their lungs are in their mouth, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care.
     
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  8. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    My house gun is a 12 ga Mossberg 8 shot defender. The first 4 rounds are #6 shot followed by 3 buckshot and a slug. The reason for the #6 shot is that at house distances the shot is still in the cup and hits like a slug. The good news is that once it hits something the pellets scatter and lose penetrating power fast reducing my concern of over penetrating several walls and harming unintended people. I would probably prefer a 20 but I have three Mossberg 500s all in 12 ga so I use what I have. I was raised in duck and goose country and a 12 was better for those uses. I prefer and use a 20 ga (side by side and pump for quail, doves bunnies and squirrels. I have seriously thought about trying to trade a 12 ga for a 20 ga Mossberg 500.
     
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  9. Jon Sophic

    Jon Sophic Member
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    Absolutely.

    M4: It is highly versatile, accurate, reliable, and lightweight (mine is a Carbon-15 Bushmaster). They are also not too expensive. I was issued an M&P-15 for professional use in the past and it was excellent. Mine is close enough to what I'm used to.

    Mossberg 500: Easy to handle and accurate. I carried a Mossberg 500 as a duty shotgun in my previous career over the course of many years and never missed one shot on the range. It just feels intuitive.

    Mosin M-38: I like historic guns and this one is a 1942 M-38 in almost perfect condition. This is not a cut-down M42. It is a real, original M38. It is extremely accurate and I can use it for hunting purposes...or moderate-range defense with the iron sights. The 7.62 x 54r round is very powerful. It will blow a limb off. Many Mosins are reported to not be terribly accurate. However, mine is dead-on accurate..at least at about 100 yards which is as far out as I've shot it.

    Glock 33: I am a Glock person due to past training and experience. Ease of use, no safety to slow me down, and extremely sturdy. I carried a Glock 17 and Glock 21 for duty, but the Glock 33 is my personal go-to. It has a .357 SIG round that will easily cut through a car door in the event of a carjacking. The only downside would be it can be a little "poppy" because it is a VERY fast round for a handgun in a subcompact form. But, I know it will shoot 100% of the time and I would trust my life with it. Now, I will submit that I am not a total fan of the Glock sight system, but it works good enough for what I need it for.

    As you can see from my comments, I am all about ease of use, easy of care, and intuitive use. I am not a professional sharpshooter, but I am professionally trained in rifles, shotguns, handguns, and associated defensive / offensive tactics. I always base my decisions on how easy it would be for me to use a weapon for defense in the dead of night, if I were being woken up by a home intruder. I'll be tired, dizzy, and perhaps delirious. But I know I can grab my nearest weapon and do some damage without having to struggle. As far as my order of preference in a real emergency, they are listed as follows:

    1) M4
    2) Mossberg 500
    3) Glock 33
    4) Mosin M38
     
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  10. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    IMO any choice of firearm should consider several factors ;
    • Tactical requirement, and operational doctrine.
    • Familiarity (training & experience) with such platform
    • Availability & price of ammo
    • Ammo intercompatibility (if you are part of a group / unit)
     
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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Trade maybe one 12 ga. that you do not use often enough or that you no longer value. Twelves are so universal and have so many ammunition variations.

    Where I'm from and the economic class into which I was born, there simply was no duck or goose hunting. Some folk raised geese. I'm sure that in your family "if you shoot it, you eat it" was the rule. Certainly some folk would mount a deer head, but there wasn't "sport hunting" per se. In my youth, maybe we knew a handful of sport hunters. All of them were "rich folk". Therefore, a 20 ga. would do for squirrels and rabbits. I've seen kids in country stores by five or ten .22 cartridges -- it was all the change they had and they were going to be shooting for pot meat. After tobacco-cutting season, there was some money going around. We had it better than that, economically speaking, but we were struggling at the bottom of "middle class". My father was less than responsible with money and often simply left town for a few weeks. Had no idea where the man was.
     
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  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I was raised in South-East Texas where the rice fields and endless swamps offered some of the best waterfowl hunting in the US. My Brother in law used to guide for one of the big lodges. The first Mossberg 500 has an old school poly choke on it that I would never trade. I have thought about cutting the barrel back and then putting the poly choke back on. For any younger folks that have never heard of a poly choke, it is a device that you can have installed on the end of your barrel that allows you to adjust your choke in the field by simply twisting the choke to adjust its effectiveness from open to extra full chokes. They are butt ugly and look a little like a chubby flash suppressor on the end of your barrel but work surprisingly well. This was what we had before the screw in chokes. I also have a 20" rifle sighted slug barrel and an 18 1/2" riot barrel with it.

    My biggest issue these days is that they want to stick a freaking vent rib on everything. I have no use for those things. They are a pain in the katukus to clean after a day hunting in the rain and are dust gatherers the rest of the time. I want an old school plain barrel 20 ga.
     
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  13. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    I'm not in the gun buying business; Dawn has more important things to buy with my money. I have only one handgun, a Ruger 9e autoloader. Like all handguns, it has a design flaw: the bullet won't go where I want it to at a range of more than about 25 feet. Everything else I own is a long gun: slide-action shotgun in 12 ga, bolt-gun in .30-'06, black plastic popgun in 5.56 and a hang-on-the-wall St. Louis Hawken replica in .50 cal, and two of my favorite guns in the world: the Ruger 10-22.

    Unfortunately, no two guns (except the 10-22s) fire the same round, which is bad for the logistics tail. I'd often thought that, if I had the money, I'd buy a lever-carbine and DA revolver in .357 magnum or maybe that new little Ruger PC carbine to go long with my 9e, but I think I've already mentioned that buying another firearm would put me afoul of the new Idaho law that Dawn told me about which requires a $50,000 surcharge for the purchase of more than seven firearms.
     
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  14. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Most any other proven design in a shotgun, and certainly not a .410
    410 shells often cost more than 12 or 20 GA and load choices are limited.
    My personal favorites are a Benelli M1S90 Tactical or a Remington 870 Youth Model 20 GA
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    For most anything beyond indoor distances, a rifle is a better choice.
     
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  15. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Snyper, very nice selection and I did just discover that 410 ammo is more expensive than 12 ga. Surprise, surprise on me. I did give my stepson my 20 ga. Mossberg tactical. He did not have anything other than 22 pistol. I am now leaning towards the very inexpensive TRI-STAR KXR TACTICAL 12GA.

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    Bud'sGunshop.com Price $415 (cash, check, money order) ($427.45 - credit card). NOTE: I am not affiliated in any way, shape or form with Bud's. Since I am recoil sensitive (one reason I liked the 410), I wanted a rife style stock that I could install a gel recoil pad. They worked wonders on my son's 300 Win Mag. I also want a box mag for faster reloads and a semi-auto for faster follow up shots. This has all those requirements. This will be a, twice a year, take to range weapon and only used for home defense. So with all the required features and a price point I can live with, this fits the bill.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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  16. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I never have understood why 410 ammo should be so expensive other than just greed. In part because of this price the 410 is a dying gauge like the 16, 28 and 10 gauges. Maybe with the increased interest, they will lower the prices. the 410 was a great small game gun for kids.

    Out to 40 or so yards I'll take a 12 gauge shotgun over a rife every time. Each pull of the trigger with #4 buck throws the same amount of lead in the air (30 22 caliber pellets) as an AR dumping a full 30 round magazine. I'm not interested in causing casualties I want corpses and that is what you get when you hit something with a load of buckshot. with a good auto or pump shotgun, you can put 180 22 caliber projectiles in the air in seconds. If there are multiple 30 -40 yard targets the 12 can't be beaten short of a full-blown belt-fed machine gun.

    There is a very real reason why a short 18.5" barreled pump shotgun is commonly called a "Riot-gun".
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  17. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    12 GA is so cheap because they sell so much of it. I prefer the 12 GA for home defence. My cousin might be a good candidate for a .410. She is recoil sensitive and doesn't even feel comfortable with a 20 GA. If we didn't live on the other sides of the continent I could change that.
     
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  18. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Caribou, being recoil sensitive and thinking that smaller framed people (like my wife) would be able to better handle the 410, I thought it would be worth looking at, but I really did not like the ammo price. El Cheapo strikes again.
     
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  19. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    You might try 12 ga minishells for your wife.
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    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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    1. TMT Tactical
      Very good point TD. I had forgotten about the mini shells. I will have to check into what shotguns can use these rounds. I would prefer a semi-auto for the wife but maybe I could train her to use a pump. A single shot / break open is not viable for a defensive firearm. Thanks for the post.
       
      TMT Tactical, Mar 20, 2020
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  21. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Very good look at this question. Is a 410 as powerful as a 12 gauge. NO not even close BUT. Is it enough to stop an intruder? With 000 buck yes, with #6 birdshot maybe not. While I like #6 for in house defense with a 12 gauge I wouldn't bet my life on it in a 410. The big thing that is nice about a 410 is that the guns are smaller and lighter and the recoil is greatly reduced. If you are not going to practice with a gun you are better off to not have it. If the recoil of a 12 gauge is too much and you are afraid of it then you will not practice and in that case a 410 might be a much better choice.
     
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  22. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    That's why I also suggested a 20 GA Youth Model 870.
    Anyone should be able to handle the recoil, and shells are cheaper than 410.

    The long 410 hulls in a semi can cause jamming problems, and a direct impingement gas system tends to be dirty.

    If the recoil of a 20 is too much I'd prefer a pistol caliber carbine in 9mm or 40 caliber, or a 357 lever action loaded with 38 Spcls for indoor use.

    I would never use bird shot of any size for self defense.
    It lacks penetration, no matter how impressive it appears on targets.

    I have a Marlin 1894S 44 Magnum that holds 11 rounds, and can also shoot 44 Spcl. It works very well out to 150 yards but is still quick handling for close in work too.
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  23. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I'm not fond of 410 in a semiauto either. the problem with any rife for in house defense is the risk of missing and having that bullet go through several interior walls and his someone unintended. Also if the recoil of a 410 intimidates a person then you will only get them to shoot a 44 mag in a carbine ONCE. I like the pistol caliber rifles. I have a Winchester Trapper in 357. when loaded with 38 Specials there is practically no recoil. I suspect that the 44 special would greatly reduce the recoil in a 44 mag rifle.

    Honestly, my little 410 was bought as a snake and boat gun and a lightweight woods companion when I am not hunting. I keep it beside my chair because I consider it safer than a loaded semi-auto pistol to have around kids. the defense loads that I use have a 41 caliber JHP bullet on top of 2 000 buck pellets. In across the room distances, it is far and away a better one-shot stopper than a 9mm.

    If I am expecting trouble I will go to my bedroom and come out with my Mossberg 8 shot defender with a combat stock sling, blinding light, and high visibility sights. I would never infer that a 410 was a superior defense weapon BUT it is adequate at in house distances with the right loads.
     
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  24. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Well you all are giving me ideas. Looking at Snyper's lever action reminded me that Henry males a lever action 410. That would be light enough for the wife and next to no recoil. just one more great possibility. Thanks for keeping this old mind working. I sometime lose sight of the forest for the trees.
     
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  25. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    The mini shells work in break actions single and double, Winchester 1300's, KSG's, and with an adaptor Mossberg 500's.
     
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  26. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    There are some sweet little coach double barrels that are great little home defense guns. When you cut loose with a shotgun in a house it is over with FAST. The sound is shocking and anybody you didn't hit is running away. I like them for people that don't have any experience with guns. The best thing about a pump is that the sound of someone racking a slide in a dark house is almost as scary as a blast.
     
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  27. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    My daughter could handle the recoil of a single shot 20 GA when she was about 8 years old. I feel certain your wife can also as long as she learns the proper way to shoot.

    The 870 Youth Model is what my wife uses for dove hunting or back-up home defense.
     
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  28. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    By the time my daughter was 8 she was shooting 44 mags, 3" 12 gauge shotguns and 7mm mag rifles. She is even less recoil sensitive than me. I'm not sure why it bothers some people more than others. I'm sure that in some cases it has to do with not knowing how to properly shoulder a weapon and having a bad first experience. Size doesn't seem to have a big difference. I have known big men that had magnum flench syndrome and little ladies that took to it like a duck to water. Once someone develops a fear of recoil it is nearly impossible to quickly help them overcome that fear. I've known adults that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a 22 rifle because of their fear of the sound and recoil. ???
     
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  29. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    If you have a Mossberg 500 or Maveric that you would like to shoot mini shells in you need one of these. They are called Opsol mini shell adapter. 15 dollars makes it a super high capacity shotgun.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022010648

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  30. Mauser'sDaDa

    Mauser'sDaDa Member
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    Would a semiautomatic machine-type pistol be better than a .41o if you're not comfortable with a .20 or .12 gauge, too> Think M&P 9 2.0 modded with a muzzle brake and thirty round magazine, too? Thirty 9mm SP or JHP rounds will wreck a home invasion crew, also.
     
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    1. TMT Tactical
      The M&P would have the potential to wreck a home invasion crew but it would not have as much versatility. Birdshot of many sizes, buckshot with several sizes and solids (slug, pennies, etc.). Shoot a squirrel with a 9mm and see how much meat will be left for the table. They do make 9 mm snake (shot shells) loads but I doubt it would cycle in a M&P. Each has good and bad points. For home protection, I will have to go with a shotgun.
       
      TMT Tactical, Jul 12, 2020
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