Ar15 Or 9mm Carbine Ar Platform

Discussion in 'General Q&A' started by Belltown1, Feb 28, 2019.

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  1. Belltown1

    Belltown1 New Member
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    I want to get my first AR 556 but problem is where I live there is basically no where to shoot/train on it so if I got it I’ll prob use it once every few months or even longer.. farthest range from me that alows 556 is prob an hour and half. So for shtf I was thinking maybe ar platform 9mm. Obviously 556 would be great but how great for me and my family if I haven’t trained on it. I’d be more accurate with 9mm carbine
     
  2. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    If you can"t shoot or train on a 556, then get the 9 mm carbine. There some nice points to having a pistol caliber carbine and a matching caliber pistol. There is a new AR15 platform coming out soon "350 Legend" and I think it is based off a 357 Maximum round. Not sure on the details, so you may want to check it out. JM2C
     
  3. Belltown1

    Belltown1 New Member
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    Thanks for the info!
     
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  4. RICH-FL

    RICH-FL Well-Known Member
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    You are talking night and day.

    The NATO 5.56mm/.223 rem with over 3000 FPS and is used by military and hunters for long range accurate shooting (Over 200 meters).

    The 9mm is a fine hand gun round with over 1250 FPS. Range is out to about 50 meters.

    See the difference in a built up area (City/urban) the 9mm is the way to go. But once you get outside the city you need to longer range and higher energy of the NATO 5.56 round.

    Okay everyone here is a simple question:
    What is the difference between NATO 5.56 and the .223 rem rounds?????
     
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  5. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    Answer to your question, case pressure;

    The Op wanted to know about the benefit of a weapon he would not be able to train on vs. a weapon of lower velocity and terminal ballistics (hand gun round) that he would be able to train on. With all things being equal, I would prefer the 556 over a 9 mm carbine. But if I could only shoot and train with a handgun round carbine, that is the one I would pick. Better to be proficient with a handgun round carbine then to stumble around with an unfamiliar 556. JM2C
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  6. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    Speaking just for me-myself and I would forget the AR-15 and master a high capacity 9mm pistol that can take a 33 round magazine. Maybe something like the Glock 34.
    or if you can find one a Glock 24 and a wolf 9mm barrel.

    Just to make you cry.........I have five private shooting ranges, and a shooting house.

    Can you legally carry a handgun where you live.....???
     
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  7. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Shooting out your cabin window again? ;)
     
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  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Maybe the above mentioned calibers for short range or home defense.

    The .223/5.56 bullets are too small & light for real military use, thus the military is headed up to the heavier 6.8mm rifle round. People use cars and trees and whatever else to gain cover -- you gotta shoot through the materials the enemy considers "cover". Your weapon must at the very least go through house walls and floors and ceilings and roofs ... whatever ... and still retain sufficient energy to do fatal damage to the human body.

    Currently, many people are going for the 6.5 Creedmore. It isn't a particularly powerful round, however the bullets available for this caliber have excellent ballistic coefficients plus the bullets are heavy enough to penetrate building materials and enemy helmets at 300 yrds. The 6.5 Swedish and the 7mm Mauser have been around forever. Nobody in their right mind ever questioned their effectiveness even though they were beneath the energy levels of the old stand-by's 30-06, 7.62 Nagant, 8mm Mauser, and the newer 7.62 NATO (early 1950s). The .303 Brit is an old war horse.

    Me, I'm glad our military is moving up to the 6.8mm. Nothing wrong with the .223/5.56, its a great varmint round. It will drop humans who are not protected by shielding or cover. It will shoot through a helmet at 100 yards I think. At short range, it's effective against 150 lb critters four and two legged. The round is too small to meet state specifications for legal deer cartridges. Most warriors wish something more powerful than the 5.56 NATO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
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  9. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    Just about every caliber has it's place and purpose. Long distance knock them down and dead, 300 Win mag. Extreme long distance just make them dead, 6.5 Creedmoor. Medium range heart shot, 556. Getting too close, 7.62 x 39. After that you move into pistol and shotgun range. Are these the only calibers for these distance, heck no, but they are the ones that I can lay my hands on, in a hurry.
     
  10. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    I have a lot of 6.8 SPC chambered tools. It is actually my favorite AR-15 cartridge.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The 5.56 was designed and great for jungle warfare. Most shots are in the 100 yards or less and much of the shooting is not at a clearly seen target. For much of this, the Winchester pump 12 ga was actually better but the ammo weighs a ton.

    The 9mm is now a much better choice than it used to be. Improved loads and better bullets have made it a good choice for urban or even jungle warfare. It used to be loaded as light or lighter than a 38 special but then was shot mostly from short barreled pistols and could only be had in FMJ making it a poor stopper. There were also not very many truely dependable autos back then as compared to the ones made today. Actually the Browning Highpower was the king of the hill for decades. S&W made a bunch of jamamatic 9mm pistols that jammed or stove piped way to often to bet your life on one of them.

    In the end any bullet that misses is worthless compared to any bullet that hits. If you can't shoot enough to make your bullet placement almost instinctive you are about as well of with no gun at all. At least with no gun you will feel nervous and be less likely to fight when you should run or hide. If I had little experiane with automatic weapons I would start off with a 10-22. You need to shoot it at all sorts of often moving targets until you can hit them dependably.

    My Father in law could drop a squirrel that was running out on a limb and every time it was a head shot. He was a remarkable shot. I would rather go up against someone with an M-16 than him with that 22 he shot. A human eyeball is about the size of the squirrel heads he was so good at hitting.

    you will always be better off with something that you can shoot and train with a lot. If you get a 5.56 you need to immediatly start reloading. that is the only way that you can shoot as much as you will need to without spending a medium sized fortune. 9mm are cheaper and 22LR are the cheapest.

    Once you get to the point that you can hit a fast moving target the size of about a 10" paper plate just about every time THEN you can worry about stopping power. A bullet will only stop what it hits! There are a lot of nice and not over priced 9mm carbines out there now. If you look at the cost of a GOOD AR and the price of a thousand rounds and compare it to a 9MM carbine and a thousand rounds I think the price difference will allow you to shoot a lot more with the 9mm and it is allowed in places where the 5.56 in a rifle are not safe or allowed.
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Medium distance, 6.8 SPC
    Long distance, .338 Lupua
    Extreme long distance, hand-loaded .50 Browning

    5.56 x 45 NATO = varmint

    It takes power and a bullet heavier than 90/100 grains to kill. People use cover unless they are brain damaged.

    Soldiers are often in vehicles or behind the walls of buildings. Gotta shoot through that.
     
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  13. CountryGuy

    CountryGuy Master Survivalist
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    Belltown, suggestions I'd have from lowest cost up...

    1.) Highpoint carbine chambered in .45acp or 9mm - don't cave to the haters, they're the BS asshats that say they're junk. I don't own one but I've shot several, now what they are is cheap, heavy, ugly (though that is in the eye of the beholder) and they are also reliable and accurate for what they are. What I don't like is they use proprietary High-point mags

    2.) Kel_tec Sub 2000 chambered in 9mm or .40S&W - I have a Gen I with the Glock grip so it uses Glock mags. SO I can swap mags between my pistols and this carbine. Again this isn't a long distance sniper rifle but it does reach out and take full advantage of the .40S&W. the New Gen II have a multi-mag system where you can swap the mag catches out to accommodate Sig, Beretta, CZ, S&W 59 and some others. I've read that possibly this year or next they are going to offer it chambered in the 10mm which really steps up the game.

    3.) There is the MechTech System which uses the lower from your pistol (Glock, 1911, xD) to create a carbine that is a bit M4-esq looking. http://mechtechsys.com/example-builds/ So you can swap back and forth but I think what I'd do is to find a cheap used pistol that maybe has a cosmetically jacked up slide and strip it and and put the lower on this thing and leave it a dedicated setup. Again you have complete mag interchangeability and with the carbine barrel you'll get the max out of whichever caliber you go with, be it 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP or 10mm.

    4.) And then there is the "Aero survival rifle", again very M4'ish in looks but you can get it chambered in .22lr, 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45ACP, 10mm, and .460 Roland (which I admit I've not heard of). Admitedly this is probably the most expensive of the options but it does look to be an excellent quality weapon. https://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx.htm

    Lastly what if you get an AR, say a S&W M&P and get the .22lr upper conversion. If your concern in shooting it is to create exact muscle memory this might be closest you'll get. I don't know where you are but have you looked to see if there are any rod & gun or hunt clubs near you that might have ranges to use.
     
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  14. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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  15. Colorado Prepper

    Colorado Prepper Expert Member
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    Sidebar note. The 5.56 was used in the military for years for two basic reasons; 1. it's lighter to carry and 2. it takes more enemy resources to take care of their wounded than it does their dead. That's warfare 101. The small caliber was designed to injure not exactly kill. Any well placed shot of any caliber will kill. Even a BB. But that isn't how fire fights go in real life. Most of the time it is spray and pray. In a fire fight, your "well placed shots" only hit the target your aiming for. Might not be fatal, but trust me the first thing that comes to their mind when they get shot in the shoulder is ,"How does Bruce Willis keep on shooting in Die Hard after HE gets shot? This is excruciating and I can't move." My answer to that is, life is not a movie. Bullets hurt. A person gets shot, they will be out of the fight even if they're not dead. I'm all for the military going to a higher caliber for cover purposes. More power to em. But I can tell you from 1st hand experience, the 5.56 is a powerful round that will go through regular walls and car doors with little to no deflection at all, AND still penetrate flesh on the other side. Far from a varmint round. It's not a .22LR. As far as the OP, get any AR platform you can fire at your local range, one you want to keep. My vote would be for the 9mm as well. The real thing you need to learn/practice is how the shape of the rifle feels when you fire it, develop that muscle memory of your sight picture, of how to use the safety, how to swap mags blindly, and how to use the forward assist. Any change of caliber in the future, you can learn very quickly once you learn the shape and feel of the platform.
     
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  16. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    In the realm of handgun ammo chambered rifles (not battle rifles, nevertheless they can be adequate for home defense):

    The highest velocity ammo for your 9mm carbine is the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P ammo.

    540 ft/lb.s of energy enters the land of the .357 magnum. Explosive expansion takes-out the aggressor and often will not penetrate the felon to go on and pose a harm to innocents. We all know what FMJs will do.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: These bullets royally come apart in ballistic gel. So much so that they do NOT penetrate as deeply as heavier bullets -- only 15" as opposed to 17" which is recommended by the FBI. For many folk, this is a BAD thing. Me, I want ammo to take-out an aggressor and then STOP, dang-it! I do also have heavier 9mm bullets for the land of penetration. Too, one of my 9mm handguns shoots most accurately with the 147-grainers. My Browning Hi-Power has dynamite accuracy and I love that -- it is head-shot accurate ... and is NOT at all finicky about the ammo it will feed'n'fire.

    I got a few boxes of the Speer Gold Dot online; had'em shipped to my home, so this ammo IS available.

    FMJs do come in handy if one is being shot-at from a vehicle. Gotta punch through heavy doors in the case of the aggressors being in old 4-door sedans or large/heavy SUVs, which are the favorites of gangs.

    Ammunition in .357 mag out of carbine rifles is mondo mortal medicine. Must say, I royally like my .357 rifle -- nostalgia plus power. This current .357 mag rifle has a 20" barrel, a bit awkward. Liked my 16" carbine better, but I had to pass it along to a younger generation and I got a good deal on this current .357 rifle w/20" barrel. Dang accurate. Can't say I'm keen on 9mm carbines, but during some SHTF scenarios, I reckon one would come in handy. With a red-dot scope, one puts the red dot on the target and bang, bang, bang. Nobody wants any sort of SHTF scenario, but things keep getting worse and worse :(.

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    1. TMT Tactical
      I am a fan of the Speer Gold Dot ammo. It is proven by a wide range of reviewers. I reload my own type of hollow point 9mm and it is very warm, velocity wise. I prefer the 124 grain loads too. Nice middle of the road weight. It is a Goldilocks' weight, not too light, not too heavy, just right. LOL
       
      TMT Tactical, Nov 23, 2022
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  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I have a winchester 357 carbine and it is actually a do anything round in East Texas. Our little white tail deer don't need a lot of power to do the job and a 357 mag seems to be a good short range one shot deer rifle. Where I used to hunt there were no places where you might get a shot much over 75 yards and most would be closer to 50. Dense brush with ocassional clearings. The clearings were where you dragged the logs to be loaded on the trucks when that area was lst logged. I handloaded for my Winchester rifle and it was fine for deer at the distances that I might need to shoot at a deer. With open iron sights I'm not confident in my old eyes for any distance shooting past 100 yards.

    For slightly longer distances I move over to a Savage 99F lever action in 300 Savage which is basicly like a 308 and with my handloads is almost EXACTLY the same. I have a 4X loepold scope on it and am accurate out to 300 yards over a rest and a couple of hundred yards in the field. I'm sort of conservitive and don't take long shots that I'm not sure of. In the brush if a deer runs off a couple hundred yards you probably will never find it without dogs.

    Yes I have a love for lever actions and have 4 lever action rifles. The only bolt action rifles that I have ever owned were military surplus. In the East Texas piny woods you just don't need a 7mm mag to reach out there. You really seldom have a real need for a scope.

    I've had deer come so close to me that I could have possibly killed one with a baseball bat one time. It was a doe and I wasn't hunting for a doe. She saw m but as long as I refused to move she wasn't sure. It was slightly drizzling rain and dead calm so I guess she couldn't catch my scent. She finally got close enough to almost touch my foot with her nose and THEN spooked and took off.

    To me, a gun should sort of talk to you. Most of my guns have a story that goes with them. I have inherited rifles from my father, grandfather, father in law and one great uncle. Each one has stories and memories that go with them. Even the guns that I have bought myself have memories that go with them. I am sort of a black hole for guns. Once they are mine I keep them. I have only sold one and that was hard times and a gun that I honestly never liked. It was a winchester model 1400 12 ga auto with a barrel so long you could knock ducks out of the sky without firing it.

    I was raised in an area that people came to from all over the world to hunt ducks and geese. I never liked hunting them because I don't like either for eating and I don't kill for just pleasure. If I go with someone that likes them they can have mine and I will hunt with them. I used to have a hunting buddy that fed his with meat from his hunting so with me he could stock his freezer for the summer months between seasons.

    LOL during the summer we fished a lot and he loved ot. We would set out trot lines and then go crappie and bass fishing. On a good week end we could provide his family with a lot of meals. When I eat fish I like them the day that I catch them. It is pretty easy for me to catch a good mess of fish in the private waters that I like to fish. They don't get fished very often and are not at all shy.
     
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