Are "we" Legally Required To Render Assistence......???

Discussion in 'Safety' started by IBME, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. IBME

    IBME "ALASKAN"
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    This is kind of a off shoot of my Meth question. Setting aside any "Moral or Religious" consideration, are we legally required to render assistance.

    Implied is that you/we/I clearly see that assistance is of value.

    For example: There is a vehicle crash, you are required to stay at the accident site. But are you legally required to render assistance........???
     
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  2. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Render Assistance can be what ever your are comfortable and qualified to do. It might be limited to just putting out road warning lights, to breaking windows and dragging a person out of a vehicle. There is no law that can force or require you to perform a service you are not trained or qualified to perform.
     
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  3. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    give someone too vigorous CPR and bruise them or even damage a rib and you can be hauled into court on a charge of assault, the line is very fine.
     
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  4. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Expert Member
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    I think on the ocean if you stop your boat and check on someone who is broke down you can not say something like "oh I'm not going that way" and leave them. You must tow them to safe harbor. I have known medical personnel such as nurses and such who would not stop to give aid as they feared being sued.
     
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  5. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    Maritime laws are different.
    Vessels at sea are required to offer assistance if possible.

    Most places now have "good Samaritan" laws that protect those trying to help someone from being sued.

    There is no legal "requirement" to give aid in most cases on land though.

    It's remotely possible you could be charged with some sort of criminal negligence if you stood by and did nothing while someone died, if you could have acted to save them without risking yourself.
     
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  6. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    isn't that called "salvage" at sea?
     
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  7. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    This reminds me of the time as a young man I came across a bad automobile wreck . There was a guy laying face down drowning in his own blood . I held his head up out of the blood until the medics arrived . When they took over I quietly slipped away . I didn't want anyone to find out who I was and sue me .
     
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  8. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Expert Member
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    Salvage at sea pertains to abandoned craft. I had a friend who liked to dive off the Oregon coast. He came up from a dive once and his inflatable zodiac was gone. He swam in and drove home. A week or so later a guy found his boat on the beach and called him. He was able to get it back for $500.00. The fee the man charged to dig it out and haul it to safety he claimed.
     
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  9. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    Good morning IBMC,

    You're posing one of the biggest matters going on in the private citizen responder community (and related like a private citizen volunteer in a public-sector sponsored Citizen Corps program).

    Much change has recently occurred and much still pending. I would not answer with specifics unless I checked the most current stuff from the swamps; Richmond and Washington, D.C.

    My rambling here for this scribbling uses your above "we" to mean private citizen. TNT Tactical's post is current Virginia doctrine and policy.

    Snyper,..also Good morning,

    Yes, the Good Samaritan laws can help the situation but the private citizen must pay for asserting the Good Samaritan defense. This is usually accomplished by enough liability insurance and/or pre-paid legal program (and obviously not free). I've been working this issue I'm mentioning here for a few years. We've got some draft proposals (with funding sources to accomplish proposals) at Virginia and FEMA/DHS. It's a slow process. Six decades of neglect has other stuff ahead of ours.
     
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  10. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    I am qualified in ( U.K.) Workplace First Aid.The idea that you can be sued is absolute rubbish.If the person is conscious you ask permission to help. guy choking ain't gonna say no! If unconscious no permission needed. It is called The Good Samaritan Rule.

    I recently had a customer collapse,and stop breathing.I administered CPR and used a de- fib.Apparently I broke two ribs.Have I been sued? No! The guy's wife came and thanked me and brought me a bottle of Scotch.
     
  11. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    The voice of experience.
     
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  12. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    "Good Samaritan" laws are a self asserting defense.
    No one has to "pay".

     
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  13. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    Good afternoon Snyper,

    I ask you to review what I wrote and reread the code section of Virginia you posted.

    If, for example, a private citizen does render assistance in full compliance with the code, the private citizen can still be sued, for example by the "patient's" involved insurance company, other parties with an involvement,...

    The private citizen/Good Samaritan has the "high ground" presuming in compliance with code and here in the sleepy backwater counties, although not prudent, can show up at a court house to assert the defense of "Good Samaritan".

    If the Good Samaritan is sued in the Federal system and must assert the Virginia Good Samaritan position in US District Court for Eastern District of Virginia, Newport News Division and you arrive without being lawyered up for presentation, you might not have a nice cozy home nor the same size bank accounts.

    As an aside, although it's not, do factor in whether to help someone if you're alone. Someone needs to be taking notes on all-weather paper and the notes are best not being "sketchy". Taking notes while alone drains off time helping the victim/patient and the notes are usually poor quality than if you had a dedicated "scribe" helping you.

    Remember, that crowd of people near you might be reporting your rescue operations to various agencies.

    Establish legal assistance arrangements when you get into all this stuff.
     
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  14. Caribou

    Caribou Expert Member
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    There are members here from around the world, I can't speak to the laws everywhere. The Good Samaritan laws have been covered. There are certain times when you are required to render assistance, here. If you caused the injury or if you are medical personnel and have indicated as much. Bumper stickers or clothing are good ways to identify yourself and get caught up when you might not wish to. You can always volunteer if you wish but don't wear a lapel pin and get drafted.

    If you take assistance, by accepting a towline, the assisting vessel has a claim on your vessel. They must assist in saving lives first. Beware, pirates will damage your vessel, offer assistance, then claim salvage. This happened when I was in Gibraltar.
     
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  15. IBME

    IBME "ALASKAN"
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    Where all this comes into reality for me, is that I am going to have no viable option short of moving near people. And I really need to learn what the rules are. Especially I need to learn what human behavior is "clearly" dangerous, or deceptively dangerous.
     
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  16. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    Unfortunately, we all know that sometimes the most dangerous people can look deceptively innocent. The trick is not to "jump the gun." It is so much easier to read a bear's intent than a human's...

    If I were in your situation I would stay as far away from Anchorage and other cities as I can. Opt for a small community that has what you absolutely must have.


    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  17. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    You're merely repeating yourself.
    It doesn't change what I said.
     
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  18. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    You're not going to learn that on the internet.
     
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  19. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    This is like the various gun questions and the answer is dependent on where you live. In Texas, you are required to render aid if you are able to do so without threat to you. You are also protected from litigation under the law while rendering that aid in an honest effort to help. I'm sorry but to me, this isn't a legal question as much as it is a moral question. As I've learned though morals are massively different in different places. To me, if I drove by a wreck and could see injured people and there was nobody already there if I keep driving I would, by my beliefs, be a coward at best.

    My Dad stopped at a wreck and crawled into a burning car across the headless body of a woman to pull her baby out of the car. He didn't do it because he was brave or a fool. He did it because he was a MAN and his honor required it. I will never shame the name he passed to me by refusing to offer aid to those in desperate need if I can help.

    All that said, there are some things that you can't help. Drug addicts have to do it for themselves. Some people that are poor are really just people that are LAZY. Helping them is just you being a sucker. When you try to help them you are all too often just enabling them. Also, there is the concept of worthy. Some people are not worthy of help.
     
  20. IBME

    IBME "ALASKAN"
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    Which makes this a very-very special Prepping/Survival Forum.
     
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  21. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Two times in my life I have had to stop and pull people from over turned vehicles. Both times, I left as soon as others arrived to carry on. Just one reason I carry a knife along with my firearm. Cutting seat belts from upside down people. It is not easy to release a seatbelt under the full weight of an upside down person.
     
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  22. Radar

    Radar Well-Known Member
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    It's not up to us to dccide if someone is worthy of our help, @TexDanm
    The good samaritan laws vary by state.
    A nurse told me that it is required of her to stop and give aid if she happens upon an accident or person down.
     
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  23. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    @Radar Actually it is up to each person to decide. There maybe laws in place but nobody to force you to stop. As you walk or drive by, nobody will force you to stop and render aid. That is a choice each person has to make for themselves.
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    My wife works under that sort of law too. She was a licensed CPR instructor. She also has various training that also makes her required to stop and offer aid. I don't have the licensed training but am able to do CPR and light first aid and WILL always stop and render aid.

    I learned the hard way that some people are just users and the more you help them the more they despise you and use you. If someone wants my help, except in cases like injuries and accidents, I need to see them making an effort to help themselves. Even when I help them they need to be working on getting back on their feet. I am not going to take them on for life. If it, not my right and responsibility to decide who I can help and who is beyond help then who's job is it. You can't help a junkie and you can't help a bum. They are what they are until THEY decide to change. THEN they might be worthy of help...
     
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  25. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    Good morning Synper,

    You are correct that nothing I wrote changes what you said. as I learned only minutes ago.

    The major reason you still hold to your position is that you have not run the "acid tests" on my points. Nothing drastic; the're not relative to you. There must be some set of reasons the emergency responder community throughout much of the US seeks liability insurance provided by their sponsor.

    After you observe some courts and administrative agencies work the cases, you might change what you wrote.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong." H. L. Mencken
     
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  26. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The reason professionals need insurance is that due to their licensing and knowledge they are held to different standards than a good Samaritan. I understand that in many...maybe even most places it is fine for people to just sit, laugh and watch as someone dies that they could have saved. That doesn't fly where I live. It isn't just LAW it is just the way good people should live. If you CAN help you should. I watched a video shot by some useless piles of crap as they laughed and watched a poor man drown. they could have helped him. they could have at least called 911. Instead, they filmed it and put it on the net. Those are the children of our future. they didn't even get in trouble the piece of crap state that they live in doesn't believe in helping people.

    People like that need a bullet in their head before they can breed more trash and places that support these actions can only be improved by most of their people dying in TEOTWAWKI. More and more I look at TEOTWAWKI as being our only hope.
     
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  27. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    Good morning Tex Dan,

    It's probably a combination of my rambling and the lack of experience by several here at MSF.com that's causing this ongoing dialogue.

    In the US environment, with some exceptions, the Good Samaritan, a private citizen, can be easily at risk / in jeopardy for many matters.

    For example, few here have worked a disaster scene with a victim / patient wearing a DNR bracelet. DNR = Do Not Resuscitate.

    Your examples above support and flesh out what I'm talking about.

    Must stop for now.
     
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  28. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    DNR bracelets are not common. I have actually known a lady that had DNR tattooed on her chest. I remember signing the papers for my parents DNR classification so not everyone here is ignorant. I don't CARE about repercussions. I want to be able to like me and if cowardice kept me from helping a person and they died I would be better off dead myself.

    If someone you love is ever in a wreck and are cut up and hurt, don't you hope that someone like me drives by and stops and not someone more worried about getting sued? My honor means more to me than ANYTHING. Honor means that I do what is RIGHT even if it is scary or even if it might place me in a questionable legal situation. Without honor, I would be nothing more than a hairless animal. My honor is a rigid guide in my life. That is just me though and I am WELL aware that this is a dying philosophy and to most people it is foolishness. I DON'T care.
     
  29. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    We are not discussing what is common or not. Our discussion is about our society and liability issues concerning private citizens.

    I personally DO CARE about repercussions because I want my grandchildren to receive my little estate and not the Virginia chapter of the ACLU, ATLA and the rest.

    Yes, I would hope that a Good Samaritan helps me - and any others similarly situated in dangerous conditions - such as a car wreck. All this is not the point I'm presenting.

    Your relatives, friends, colleagues, leave rural east Texas to other locals in the fruited plain and they are in an environment that you actually just recently described. What is noble and honorable and worthwhile is not present throughout much of the fruited plain. This is because of the liability environment of ours. The Good Samaritan laws were not funded; just the feel good intentions got the public attention. It's the same with the victim compensation laws and .... limited cyber space requires me to hold off............
     
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  30. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    You haven't really made any points.

    You just keep making vague, rambling statements while trying to imply some you have some superior knowledge, but you've shown nothing to support the implications.
     
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  31. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    I'm sorry Snyper.

    I tried.

    In this specific subject, I do have superior knowledge.

    Please assist with the specifics you know about.
     
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  32. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    This is not entirely true, but you do need to be careful, and you do need to know the law. Are you required to provide assistance? I would say no you are not. Check this link.

    https://www.nurse.com/blog/2016/08/18/know-the-law-before-acting-as-good-samaritan/

    This link explains how the Good Samaritan Laws work: https://www.nurse.com/blog/2016/08/18/know-the-law-before-acting-as-good-samaritan/

    We were always told in every CPR class I have ever taken the person you are working on is dead. You can't hurt him. If he wasn't dead, no vital signs, you wouldn't be doing CPR.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  33. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I was speaking from a UK prospective, maybe not in a police context but I have heard of family of the victim bringing a private prosecution again someone just trying to help and being a bit how shall we say, overenthusiastic in their help?
    I tend to stay out of it personally and let someone more qualified do the assisting, my first aid training was many years ago and is confined to cuts and bruises and broken bones, although I do know resuscitation procedure. my first aid is normally confined to family .
     
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  34. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I agree, and would probably do the same. My first aid knowledge is limited, and I firmly believe in "Do No Harm". I wouldn't want to do something that did more harm than good.

    I think the key to the lawsuit you mentioned is the "overenthusiastic" part. I believe the second link addresses doing things you are not capable of doing.
     
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  35. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    From the U.K. perspective, even someone with a current qualification, like myself, is not required to lend assistance. However, as another poster here said of his father, I am a Man. I am a compassionate human, and will not be the person who has not got the first idea of what to do in a crisis.

    It would seem that English Law is very much less complex and punitive than that of North America in this situation.
     
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  36. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I will do what I can and what I know how to do and then disappear. Don't want the fame, glory or attention. Duty done and gone. Simple answer to bad situations.
     
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  37. IBME

    IBME "ALASKAN"
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    You will find that putting Snyper on "IGNORE" will greatly improve the overall quality of you experience on this forum. And you will not miss anything important.
     
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  38. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Expert Member
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    Good morning IBME,

    Thank you.
     
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  39. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    You don't follow your own advice, and you're only upset because I've caught you fabricating things so often. It's not my fault you can't keep your stories straight. :)

    Anyone can make that claim.
    There's still no evidence that's been shown to support it.

    I'm sorry if that fact upsets you, but it's simply the truth.
    Murby/Murphy always said "you can be anything you want on the internet".
     
  40. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    Lol. Those of us who have known IBME for many years and have actually been to his place, etc. etc...know for a fact that he is honest in his representations.

    By now, thousands of other people have seen all the posts that you seem to have taken issues with, yet you are the ONLY one to have any problems with them.

    You are the most persistent troll that I have ever seen stalk another person in the internet.

    Over the years, you have seemed to follow this man in forum after forum, needling him all the way...

    You have well earned your reputation as a creep and a stalker. It does not bother you that many have you on ignore, as you have so often told many, many others to do when they complain about you.

    For the most part I have kept silent, but enough is enough and I am calling BS on your shenanigans.

    .
     
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  41. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    That has nothing to do with the reality of what I said.
    I've seen him tell lies, whether you choose to believe what he says or not.

    I doubt you have seen them all, since if you had you would know what I said is simply the truth. I suspect you've only seen the ones he wanted you to see.

    "Call" anything you like.
    It doesn't change what I said, because what I said is the truth.

    He's just mad because I pointed out some of his contradictions and he's been complaining about it ever since. He gets upset if anyone disagrees with him.

    Name calling won't alter the facts of what I said.
    I have no reason to lie about anything.

    I just happen to have a good memory for things I read.

    I also have no reason to "stalk" someone who is all over the internet using various names but telling the same (and also contradicting) stories on different sites.

    If you'd like, I can provide a link to a forum he recently joined where I am also a member, so maybe he is "stalking" me. ;)

    I know what I have seen with my own eyes and none of your protestations nor name calling can alter that. :)

    You can believe whatever you like.
    Whatever you choose to do is fine with me.
     
  42. IBME

    IBME "ALASKAN"
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    About "Snyper".

    Some members here likely don't know about "Snyper's" behavior especially as he has an issue with me.

    This has gone on for several years. He has a sick obsession with attempting to discredit me. He does this on several different forums. He is very skilled at dancing right up the line where, he would get banned.

    But, setting that aside, he rarely, if ever starts threads, and rarely ever contributes any value to threads. His posts are generally snarky, consisting of one sentence. He is obsessed with discrediting me, but he also enjoys attacking others.

    All I can say is he is sick, he needs help. And as he is skilled at not getting banned, there is little that can be done, other then putting him on ignore.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  43. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    I have called out the BS, but I won't argue with you because everyone who know you and IBME knows that the records and reputations speak for themselves.

    How long has your stalkerish behavior towards IBME been going on? Almost a decade, if not more. Give it up already.


    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  44. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    Yet here you are, arguing.

    You can't refute what I said with facts.
    You are simply repeating yourself.

    Feel free to show your evidence.
    Be sure to show it all.
     
  45. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    Feel free to show your evidence also.

    You still don't follow your own advice.
    I think it's you that is obsessed with me. :)
     
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  46. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    Nope. This is not a courtroom and I will not dirty up a fine forum with any of it.

    End of discussion.


    .
     
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  47. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    I knew you wouldn't.

    That ship has sailed.
     
  48. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Do you know how to kill a troll? Don't respond. The sound of their own voices and no other sound drives them craz---ier.
     
  49. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    I believe most angles of this thread have been covered except that in the US some states make use of a little understood law called reckless endangerment.
    It is usually concerned with harm caused to a person as an unintended consequence of your action though it could be argued that harm was caused by your inaction or negligence if you left someone to suffer when you could reasonably have given assistance.
     
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