Arizona Republican Proposes Bill Requiring Students To Recite Pledge Of Allegiance

Discussion in 'General Q&A' started by TMT Tactical, Dec 5, 2019.

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  1. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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  2. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    It seems pointless to me.
    They will mostly be mouthing the words without understanding the true meaning.
     
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  3. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    Well, I don't have any problem with the Pledge of Allegiance, except I would replace the fords "the Flag" with the words "the Constitution"*, and remove the term "under God" because I don't want to force people to pledge allegiance to some entity which, in their minds, doesn't exist.

    *The American Flag stands for the United States of America, but so does Mom, hot-dogs, and apple pie.
    The Constitution, on the other hand, is the United States of America.​
     
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  4. GateCrasher

    GateCrasher Expert Member
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    I generally stay out of threads like this, but I offer two questions for consideration.

    #1) What section/clause of the Arizona Constitution grants authority to the Arizona Congress to even make such a law?

    #2) If you found that section/clause, then do we really want a government that has the authority to demand that children shall pledge their allegiance to it?
     
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  5. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TMT,

    Why was it ever an issue for an "American made American flag" ?

    Prior to this Arizona legislation where were the flags made ?

    Does this relate, at least indirectly, why the US imported steel ? imported petroleum ? imported cars ? lost the world's best and safest merchant marine fleet ?

    We place small US flags on veterans' graves at a couple of the holidays. The flag origin matters used to get discussed. No longer even mentioned.
     
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  6. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    Sigh..., why oh why do Americans keep demanding the right to pledge allegiance to their servant? Government should be pledging allegiance to us, not us to the government. The master is the "liege" to whom al"liege"ance is pledged. You cannot have allegiance with a liege to swear it to. Liege is the root word for allegiance.

    I pledge allegiance to no lord or sovereign save The Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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  7. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Interesting comments. When I pledge Allegiance it is the the Unites States Of America, not to the government or any political party or politicians. My pledge is to the constitution and the people of America. As for the U.S. made flags, it became know that a great many (majority of the American flags were made in foreign countries, paid for by tax dollars. I would rather spend $10.00 (example figure - not actually figure) for an American made flag vs. $2.00 for a foreign made flag. At least the tax dollars are staying in America. As for the Arizona constitution, I don't have a clue. The children may just be mouthing the words but I feel it is a step in the right direction. We need to bring back the love of country and patriotism. The "in god we trust", is out of my jurisdiction, being agnostic, I am ambivalent. It is printed on our currency and does not seem to cause anybody trouble carrying it or spending it. JM2C.
     
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  8. GateCrasher

    GateCrasher Expert Member
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    I understand what you mean and largely agree, just think it should be encouraged at home by the parents or voluntary participation before or after school hours. Government derives their power by the consent of the governed, I don't agree that we ever gave them the power to make laws about who or what children (or adults) have to pledge their allegiance to.
     
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  9. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon all,

    One additional comment - from the national perspective. I don't know specifics about Arizona.

    In our current environment, a child/student can take legal action action against the local/area school board for the usual reasons. The local/area schools are not really set up for legal battles.

    Just throwing this into the mix for working this venture.
     
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  10. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Added note. Parents can opt out if they object. It would be mandatory to be said but not mandatory to be adopted by all students.
     
  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The government is not my servant any more than my family is my servant. When I pledge allegiance I am saying that I will work to the benefit of my home and people and protect it if need be. The "government" is supposed to be a reflection of we the people. IF, actually when because it is close and seems inevitable, the government stops acting in the best interests of the people and the survival of our nation that allegiance will demand that we as Patriots, if necessary by revolutionary means, take them out of power and return the government to the people.
     
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  12. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    Back in the 80's while I was in school even in the mid 90s until Jr. high and high school we said the pledge of allegiance. I liked saying it and in the 1st grade we also sang My Country Tis Of Thee and other songs. I was and still am a very patriotic person. In fact, when I was a child I had a book of all the different American flags and I would draw and color them and hang them on my dresser mirror. Prior to going to school in the morning I would say the pledge of allegiance in front of my flags. LOL

    Pretty sad that a law has to compel one to be a stewart of your country. It IS ONE NATION under GOD. While the Founding Fathers saw that unjust religious persecution should be in the 1st amendment, they were also Christian. Or at least Judaeo Christian. Never would they have imagined such groups like satanists or atheists to also have a 1st amendment right. At least I don't think so. And I think if the Founding Fathers would have seen what is going on today about having to create a law about a pledge of allegiance they would have thought many were treasonous.

    China has their shit together when it comes to patriotism. But you have one political ideology and you have another. Who's allegiance do you side with? None? Then move to Mexico or Canada. Be gone with you.
     
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  13. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    If our elected officials want to get involved in what is happening in the public school systems perhaps they should spend more time looking at the curriculum being taught than whether or not anyone is pledging allegiance to the flag. LGBTQ and Socialism is being pushed heavily as well as Global warming and Climate Change as proven truth when in fact it is not. No one is addressing the real problems in our public school systems.
     
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  14. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    That's exactly true. Even with so-called "places of higher education." I've never been to a college, but I bet my bottom dollar I can ask any college student to name all the presidents on mount Rushmore or who the current secretary of state is, or a simple question like at what temperature in Fahrenheit does water freeze and they wouldn't know. But ask them a question about what was on John Stewart last night or what the New York Times had on page one and I bet they know that answer.

    MIT has free college classes that you can take so I watched a lecture for computer science. About three quarters in the professor just had to use an analogy with Ted Stevens and how the Internet was nothing but "tubes." Never mind the fact that I'm sure (and every clear thinking person should know this) Ted Stevens knows the damn Internet isn't a series of pipes but was just making the jest that it was like that. It's as bad as dimwits taking face value of what Palin said about seeing Russia from her front door. Really? You seriously think she really believes that? It's you that is the dumb one. Now go call the police because McDonalds doesn't have anymore chicken nuggets.
     
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  15. Richard Earley

    Richard Earley Well-Known Member
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    In the 50's and 60's it was recited everyday in the 1st class you attended with the right hand over our heart..Why not now??
     
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  16. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    I responded to this thread last December 7th, but I'd like to expand on my answer by answering your question "Why not now"?

    Because requiring people to recite the Pledge of Allegiance was wrong then and it is wrong now. Here's why I believe that.
    1. Our Constitution recognizes that people have the right to free political speech, and whether you and I might think a particular speech is "correct" or "incorrect", "good" or "bad" is irrelevant. Refusing to say a phrase, just like burning the flag, has been ruled as "speech" by the SCOTUS, and it's their job -- not yours or mine -- to determine what is and isn't constitutional.
      If the Arizona Legislature would actually adopt that law and Doug Ducey signed it, the ACLU would (correctly) call "violation of the First Amendment" and the law would be overthrown on Constitutional grounds. Those Arizona lawyers know this, but they're just trying to curry favor with their perceived constituencies.
    2. Some religions do not believe in oaths (the Jehovah's witnesses and 7th-Day Adventists come to mind) while other individuals (such as atheists) might take valid offense at having to swear allegiance ("under God") to a deity in which they do not believe. Again, it'd be shot down via First Amendment grounds.
    3. Many people attending public schools are not American citizens (I had two foreign exchange students attending high school back in the day) and would rightly take offense at having to pledge allegiance to a foreign country. (As a matter of fact, that'd be understandable, since if we did that here in the US, it'd open us up to charges of sedition!)
    4. And this is my personal reason. I have no allegiance to the flag. Sure, the flag "stands" for the United States, but so does Mom, Apple Pie and Chevrolet. All the flag is is a piece of cloth. Certainly I respect the flag and would do nothing to insult it; I stand when the flag goes by and remove my hat (something 90 percent of American males fail to do). Perhaps that's because I'm only a couple years older than you and our generation -- yours and mine -- was raised to respect things that are no longer considered respectable. But in the final analysis, it's just a symbol.
      Now when I was in my late teens, I swore an Oath that I have kept for over 55 years and will continue to keep until death (perhaps you did as well, as a young man). But it was not to a symbol, like the flag or Mom or apple pie or anything else. It was to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United State of America. The Constitution is not a "symbol" of the United States. The flag, Mom, the Grand Canyon, the Statue of Liberty, and Downtown Des Moines can be considered "symbols" of the United States. The Constitution IS the United States.
    And that's what I pledge allegiance to.
     
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  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and to THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS. ONE NATION under god inadvisable with liberty and justice for all.

    Can you really not understand that the flag is mentioned only in passing and that the thing that you are swearing your allegiance to is your country???
     
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  18. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    If the flag is mentioned "only in passing", why is such a big deal made of it? Let me re-phrase your quote:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America AND to the Republic for which it stands, ONE NATION under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all." That's two of 'em: the US flag and the country. If you choose to equate the flag with the country; you have every right to do so. I choose to equate the country with something more important: the document that outlines (but doesn't grant -- they are inalienable) our rights and liberties and sets the rules for who we are and what we do. Countries (including, alas, my country) have, on occasion, done horrid deeds while waving the flag; it is our Constitution which corrects those deeds and rights those wrongs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  19. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Rich, Duncan and TexDanm,

    If I may refresh what I wrote some weeks ago;

    We are now a nation in a legalistic environment. Recall the recent word entered into our American political dictionary: "lawfare" - fighting by use of the legal systems, courts and administrative agencies.

    Even one lawsuit against a small county causes big problems. In my backwater rural county, last year the Virginia ACLU had a picnic. We taxpayers still have to clean up the picnic table.

    Our nation has changed. It's really even less than a legalistic environment. It's a raw political environment camoflaged by the niceties of law. The numerous five four split decisions by the Supremes proves that the judicial bodies are also as political as they make 'em.

    Who will pay to defend against the lawsuit that the Pledge wasn't also recited in Spanish ?

    Without a return to the fundamentals within a stable political environment, the picnic table will always be filthy and loaded with flies.
     
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  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    We have become a gathering of just random people that no longer deserve our freedom. We let people come here in mass that have no interest in becoming one of us and we have done this so long that there is not much feeling of us as a single united people anymore past small pockets of people in areas that feel a local affiliation. As is noted here, most people consider patriotism a silly useless thing now. I'm really not sure how many would be willing to fight if we were invaded in a lot of places in the US now and how many would welcome the invaders. Do you really think that the illegal aliens that the liberal wants to make citizens would fight for this nation? they didn't care enough about the nation of their birth to stay there. How much allegiance do the welfare people feel towards us or would they see invaders as just someone new to take care of them? When the people in a nation no longer feel any connection to others or to the place is it really a nation anymore?

    Based on the last election 50% of the people in the US would be willing to vote away their freedom. This year it is looking like they will get another chance to vote for socialism that will take away the freedoms our forefathers fought to give us. When you GIVE away something it costs nothing and will eventually be seen as worth nothing and that is about where we are now.

    Citizenship should not be GIVEN and only allowed to those that earn it by being willing to declare their allegiance and willingness to defend it. When I was young on my 18 birthday I went and declared my willingness to fight for this country. I registered for the draft. Now we demand NOTHING of people that want to be Americans. In some places, you don't even have to show and ID to vote. We care so little about our nation that we no longer deserve it and will only keep it until someone willing to fight for it comes along and takes it away from us. The liberals are importing these people as fast as they can...
     
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  21. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    https://www.tssi-ops.com/


    Good afternoon TexDanm,

    My views also.

    Re: "How many would be willing to fight ... ";

    Glance at the above link's masthead and their signature line: " ... in uniform"
    "Less than 7% ...
    "... fire fighters and EMS professionals"
     
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  22. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    I pity the younger generation. If you can't even say a pledge to the country you live in, you'll probably not even protect your country from foreign invaders.

    I pledge allegiance to the flag which is a representative of all people in this country whether you're a citizen or not. i.e. once you cross the border or though customs, the damn Constitution give you rights like the Libs want. So say the damn pledge and be happy your not in communist China! At least you can have a fare trial, won't being beaten to death for evidence, etc...

    Many people take this whole freedom thing beyond the scope and bounds of it all. You may have a 1st amendment right, etc, but at what point do you realize your pretty much raising a middle finger to the very freedoms you are afforded under that flag that was fought and died for?

    Doesn't really matter if your a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, or Independent, etc.
     
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  23. EarlyMarksman

    EarlyMarksman Expert Member
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    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands"

    I personally think it's a cult-like prayer to a corrupt government. I do not think it is "raising a middle finger to the very freedoms you are afforded" because one of those freedoms is the right to free speech, meaning you can choose to say it or not. Modern "patriotism" is seen as being a flag-loving, cop bootlicker instead of what patriotism truly is: loving the soil and believing in a better system for your countrymen and the willingness to challenge or question the government on everything it does.
    Requiring someone to say the pledge is not only an attack on the freedom of speech but could lead to much worse outcomes, such as imprisonment for those unwilling to spread the government's propaganda. Forcing people to say a pledge is close to what Mao Zedong did in communist China when he required each citizen to have a copy of a book of his quotes and rhetoric on them at all times.
     
  24. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Early Marksman,

    My collection of political paraphernalia contains one of those "Little Red Books". They were printed in just about all the world's languages.

    There was a BIG change when President Eisenhower added "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.
     
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  25. EarlyMarksman

    EarlyMarksman Expert Member
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    That would be interesting to read right there. I like to read a lot of political literature.
     
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  26. Patience

    Patience Member
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    I wouldn't force anyone to say a pledge.

    But still, its the flag, its Old Glory.

    Keep some romance in your life, go win a battle, some personal challenge, and have a coin made, or a flag, to commemorate the occasion. It will have some meaning.

    The Stars and Stripes has some meaning, we've all lost relatives or loved ones, they were Americans. Take your hat off when the flag goes by, its for those who have gone before.

    Dont be shitty, say the pledge.

    But dont force anyone to by legislation. Thats what social pressure is for.
     
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