Bigfoot - Sasquatch - Real? Not Real?

Discussion in 'The Hangout' started by Ken S LaTrans, Jul 14, 2018.

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  1. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Let me preface this by saying I am NOT a "believer"....just a curious sort who, based on forensic evidence that would generally hold up in a police investigation, tends to allow for the possibility that a large, bipedal primate exists in North America.

    So, I thought this would be a fun topic.

    I am not talking about the so-called whoops and hollars and tree knocks that guys like those goobers from "Finding Bigfoot" always claim...but evidence like the unique dermal ridges in footprints that have been examined by Officer Jimmy Chilcutt in Conroe, TX (who is THE most respected latent print guy in LE circles). I am talking about evidence that would lead a police officer to say "Yeah, this is probably correct".

    So...with that said...I have been fascinated by the subject since I was a kid and saw the Patterson-Gimlin film which looked like an animal, not a "man in an ape suit" to a kid who grew up on a ranch in the mountains who knows bears, and just about every large critter in the United States.

    Yes, I have also seen all the BS hoax videos that DO look like a man in an ape suit, and they are SO readily and apparently identifiable as a fake...and they tend to give the Patterson-Gimlin film more credibility.

    So, just as a curiosity, do any other members here have an actual intellectual/scientific interest in the subject of Bigfoot/Sasquatch?

    As I said...I am not a "believer"...but a skeptical police mind who would tend to allow for the possibility based on the evidence extant. Honestly, I think it would be cool as all get out for it to actually exist and be proven to exist, and then left alone to live its life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I see no reason why on a continent the size of the USA and Canada why a large ape like animal could not survive and stay hidden in a remote area.
     
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  3. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    That's where I tend to fall in the whole thing. I have spent a LOT of time in the mountains...and I am comfortable there. I have been places that took me a week to get to on a horse and literally, didn't see another human being. I only "felt" a bear around because I smelled it and my horse reacted, but I never saw it, so I know there are vast tracts where people and animals can go unseen.
     
  4. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Simple answer; I don't know....... It's pretty much impossible to prove a negative so I can't say for sure that they don't exist but I've never seen compelling evidence to show that they do exist either.......truthfully I don't really care.o_O
     
  5. Crys B.

    Crys B. Member
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    I tend to follow the law of witnesses, as laid out in the Bible. Multiple people have said they'd seen it. They tend to be seeing something pretty similar all around the world. So, they must be seeing something.

    After all, by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established.

    Here's a better question: How can hundreds, if not thousands of people through a large time frame that stretches at least two hundred years, probably more, be seeing something that doesn't exist? How can that be explained?
     
  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    About five years ago while in Oregon on business, I betook myself to the Willamette National Forest to meet up with my spiritual adviser Bob. Bob is a Bigfoot. They don't mind being called that -- they are very Zen. I was referred to Bob in my early twenties and it was Bob who helped me to get to whatever maturity level I am today. I could have gone bad. Bob's my buddy.

    Tens of thousands of years ago, space aliens attempted to speed-up evolution. The results were mixed. We Homo Sapien Sapiens were a decided failure. Neanderthals were quite nice; that's what got them killed. The Bigfoot line was the only success story.

    The depth of Bob's insights always humble me. When I asked him about the future of our species (the HSS lot), he took a deep drag off his cigarette and looked out over the horizon. There was this intense crimson sunset that day. Bob said nothing.
     
  7. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I don't think that it is impossible that there may be some rather large hairy hominids wandering around. Things that live in and are a part of the deep forests are seldom going to be seen if they are cautious. I have personally seen a critter that I have been assured by wildlife officials does not exist. I have also seen one that exists but not in the area where I saw it.

    I used to hang out in areas where things had been seen and have never seen anything like a bigfoot. If I ever do see one there is no way in hell that I would shoot it. If I don't know what it is I don't shoot at it. What if it was just a big hairy but ugly man...or a man in a gilly suit or even some dumbbutt in a monkey suit. Besides all that I personally am not afraid of something just because it is different.

    I'm very curious and have always loved haunted houses and Mysteries. I've seen a lot of strange things but so far all my UFOs are exactly that...unidentified. The ghosts have all be fraud or misunderstood odd natural phenomena or just something totally misidentified... with a couple of exceptions that I have no explanation for.

    If there is no bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, Yowie or Abominable Snowman then what are so man thousands of people for thousands of years seeing? Maybe they are all demented liars but WHY. A lot of these people are cops and such with nothing to gain from telling these stories.

    The world will be a sadder place if all the mysteries are ever solved and all the questions answered.
     
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  8. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I like your take on it. I have always liked solving the mystery, or putting the pieces together. I have seen more than a few bear in the wild, yet I never felt a need to shoot one of them. I am not a trophy hunter or a hobby hunter. Anything I have ever hunted...other than men...I have put on the table. So, unless a Bigfoot was clearly intending to make dinner out of me, I would be more than happy to watch in wonderment while it did what it did, going on about his/her/its squatchy business for as long as it let me watch it. I feel the same way about mountain lions and wildcats...when I see them when I am out on my horse, as long as they aren't bothering stock, then I call it a good day to be alive for having seen one and we both go on about our business.

    I think it would fall into the realm of "cool as hell" if it were proven to exist, then accepted by the scientific community, then protected. I believe I'd hate to see one captured, poked, prodded, and made a slave to some lab somewhere though. I enjoy my freedom too much and if the Bigfoot is an intelligent primate, then I can only assume that a life of captivity would be torture for them too.

    Then again, maybe I like the idea of it being a mystery more...allowing for the possibility that it exists...but not having one brought in alive, dead, or otherwise just so it remains in the realm of "what if".
     
  9. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The human mind does a lot of wildly incredible things BUT it is like any computing device and doesn't deal well with ambiguity. When you see something that doesn't fit with what you are looking for or something that is distorted almost beyond recognition your brain will still try to make sense of it and pass on what is its closest guess.

    Seeing is believing is a common saying but it isn't always true as any good magician can demonstrate. I saw a critter one time and at first all that I could see was either the ugliest skinny kid that ever lived or a damn alien critter!!! It was walking up and down a fence on two legs with an odd gait and I just couldn't figure out what it was. It made the hair on my neck stand up big time! It wasn't until I got close to the fence that I could actually SEE it so it made sense. It was a dog. A big hound dog that had lost the front legs up to the elbows. It could walk slowly on all fours but when it wanted to move faster or for a longer distance it stood on its legs and walked with a strange slightly hopping gait.

    If I had spotted this in the woods for a couple of minutes from a distance I don't know what in the world I would have thought it was!! I had a six legged dog do about the same thing to me one time too. When you throw something at your brain that is totally unique it struggles. That six legged dog would stop, lift the front two legs off the ground and paw at you with them while there were obviously still 4 feet on the ground.

    A lot of what people see is like this and just misinterpretations of something odd and not seen clearly. People in general are really pretty terrible witnesses and what they see doesn't always come out like it went in. A man in a strange costume car run into a room, do something odd and say a few things real quick then run out and if a hundred people were in the room you will get a hundred different descriptions of what happened. Some of the stories will make you wonder what in the world they are talking about. The stories can be so far off the facts that there is basically no usable information in it.

    Nonetheless when the people that see these odd things are trained observers and used to seeing and remembering what they see you suddenly are faced with a question. Cops and Airline pilots are good at this. They see a lot of things and proper interpretation is a must for them.

    The mystery is a double edged question. Either WHAT are all these people seeing OR What makes all these sane intelligent people think that they see these things?
     
  10. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Group hysteria?
     
  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    It is easy to say no until it is YOU that sees something or has an experience that has no realistic and reasonable explanation.
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I just texted Bob and he replied that he would support the group hysteria explanation.

    He said that the woman he stole the iPhone from exhibited a marked hysterical response to his act of transference of ownership.
     
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  13. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    That's just it TexDanm, I'm not saying yes or no, I don't deny big foots existence however group hysteria is a recognised phenomenon and a possible explanation for the way a lot of people claim to have seen something. I'm sorry to say that a lot of people are rather suggestable, meaning that you can mention something to them and ten minutes later they've convinced themselves it was their own idea.
    It's like the concept of urban myths, where someone makes up a lie and circulates it just to see how long it takes before others are swearing that "it's fact, it really happened...honestly! and that their friend of a friend was there so it incontrovertible."
     
  14. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    If the Bigfoot phenomenon was based soley on anecdotal evidence and hearsay, then I would give a lot more credence to a "group hysteria" theory. Absent any empirical evidence such as the thousands of footprints, the tens of hundreds of those with dermal ridges, healed scars, mid-tarsal breaks, as well as DNA from "unknown species"...then I am sure I would be an active non-believer.

    I am a general skeptic by nature and by training. If you have a theory...great...show me the evidence. I am a specific skeptic by training. In God I trust...all others must verify.

    The evidence we have extant, taken all in a bunch, I tend to allow for the possibility , and even lean toward the probability, that there is an unknown bipedal primate living in North America.

    I any case....I just think it would be cool if Bigfoot does exist and I remain open to the possibility.
     
  15. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    I'm not able to say one way or the other and to be honest I still don't care. I'm much more concerned about the species that are known to exist but have been driven to the edge of extinction rather then mythical creatures like Sasquatch. I don't believe in gods either, whatever the religion. I don't say that to be offensive, I don't deny they exist but nor do I see any good reason to believe in them.
     
  16. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I found this to be an interesting topic though I am not sold on it entirely . I do know that often science identifies new species which were previously unknown.


    David Paulides...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Paulides

    In particular his book..

    https://www.amazon.com/Hoopa-Projec...0543&sr=8-1&keywords=hoopa+bigfoot+encounters


    Hoopa is the name of an American Indian Tribe in northern California. What I found interesting is that few have ever thought to go to the groups with the longest tale of stories about this country going way back..even before the white man. These people who were natural fishermen, hunters and keen observers of nature. Too many are or seem to be stuck going only to science.

    What David Paulides did was to reason out that the American Indian would have extensive knowledge and tales or encounters going way back into the history of this nation.

    He went to the Hoopa Indian reservation and, after gaining their trust that he was not a cooke or nut job, was able to interview many of the people of this tribe and reservation as to what they knew about the surrounding forests around the reservation and river running through it.

    This book made for interesting reading outside of the normal investigative works done by many people.

    What I found interesting in this book..and have never read it anywhere else..is that the Indians on this reservation tell that these Bigfoot they have seen are human...not ape.

    Of interest to me also is that at a certain season when the berries bloom on certain bushes on the Reservation...it is not unusual to find the Big foot along the trails and back roads feasting on berries as do the bears.

    Or significant piles of bigfoot scat...different from Bear scat.


    Also of interest and very telling to me is that many of the Reservation Indians , as is to be expected of Indians, have dogs.

    The dogs are terrified of these bigfoot..verses other animals like mountain lion or bear.

    When they discover they are around the dogs will often run away or back to the vehicles.
    You do not hear these versions or details from most interviews on the topic.


    I have also read his book on Missing people..that too is interesting reading.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  17. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Many of the PNW tribes just accept BF/Sasquatch as "a matter of course" and don't understand what all the fuss is about. They just are...just as the bear, the beaver, and the fat chick...they all exist, period.

    Another thing that lends credence to this is if you look at their totems....there are sasquatch creatures represented on many of their totem poles along with bear, beaver, eagle, wolf, hawk, coyote, killer whale, fish....and NONE of the animals on their totems are "mythical or fictional"....all their totemic representations are of those things they can see touch, and feel...in other words...real extant animals.

    I ordered all three of his books by the way.
     
  18. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    :rolleyes:Really? Never heard of the thunderbird? A mythical creature central to Native American beliefs....it features large on many totem poles. It is just becoming a waste of time discussing this any further. You obviously want to believe in big foot Ken and that's fine. Why can't you just accept that I don't believe in it and we're unlikely to agree. Bored with this now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  19. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Hey there easy tiger...no need to be a dick. The Thunderbird is not a "totem" animal. It is a crest animal. The totemic animals are the ones that make up the pole area, and not all tribes have a "thunderbird", and the thunderbird in many of those tribes represent the eagle or the hawk. "Thunderbird" is a generic term given by whites.

    Secondly...if you don't want to discuss it...feel free to check out of the conversation.

    By the way...I don't give half a shred of a shit if you believe or not and I am certainly not trying to convince YOU of anything, because honestly your opinion really isn't that important to me (read that as not important at all). I never said I believe...I said "I allow for the possibility" and am discussing those things and reasons why I tend to allow for that possibility.

    I don't even recall quoting you or replying to you in any of my posts. You seriously over inflate your importance in this discussion.

    You don't believe. I don't care.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  20. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Try to show some manners Ken, I've refrained from calling you names, extend me the same curtesy.
     
  21. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Oh young man...I have shown manners. You were acting in a manner consistent with what my training and experience would indicate dick-like behavior. You were deriding the opinions of others, and making sure everyone knew you didn't believe in Bigfoot, don't believe in god(s), which I don't even recall anyone mentioning god(s), and tried to ridicule them. That's being a dick.

    If you act like a dick...I am going to mention it. You acted like a dick. I mentioned it. And that is really all there is to it.

    One thing is certain...dicks exist.
     
  22. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Ok Ken, you think I was deriding you for believing in god(s)..which one? Because if you believe in one you cannot logically dismiss the possibility that others exist. That doesn't mean I expect you to believe in them all or worship them all. Your basic grasp of logic isn't very good so you resort to swearing and abuse because you're obviously not equipped to debate with someone smarter then you.
    If you want to believe in big foot, unicorns or fairies it's all the same to me. You're opinions are obviously more important to you then your manners.
    Remember it was you who asked if we believed or not, at first I said I didn't know, not that I don't believe...you just had to try and ram your opinion down my throat
     
  23. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The Thunderbird is very likely to be a very real memory of a bird that once existed. I used to live near a place that had a huge buzzard roost in the hill across the road. There are a ton of misunderstandings about them that I got to see and understand. First off when you see them circling in the sky it is NOT an indication of something being dead. Basically they are very poor flyers in the sense of flapping their wings to travel. They are basically just huge gliders that need rising thermals to gain altitude. Once they are up they go gliding around looking for carrion. When they are circling they are in a rising thermal collum.

    Thet travel in these thermals and one of the most impressive things that I have ever seen is the start of their fall migration. In the winter there are no strong thermals so they go south as the fall comes on. They will wait until there is a strong norther rolling down from the north and then in mass they will go up and ride the front of that huge thunderstorm where the cooler air is meeting the warmer air liked a surfer. Even in the summer they like to ride the fronts of thunder storms.

    I can well imagine that a group of condor type and sized birds coming across the sky leading a thunderstorm would have been a truly awesome thing to see considering how it looked with regular sized vultures. Here in Texas there are still occasional sightings of some sort of huge birds that are probably in part occasional visits from a few condor sized birds from Mexico. Thee sightings are generally written off just like the Bigfoot, UFO and Chupacabra sightings.

    We have a lot of Egles here and I have seen them up close and sort of personal. They are very intimidating birds when they are going in for a kill!!!! I can only imagine how impressive a bird over twice a large might have been. It would easily be something that you would tell your kids and grandkids about and that is what Thunderbirds are.

    The chupacabra is also a real critter in Texas that they have caught on several occasions yet it is still considered a cryptid. The government wildlife people say it is either people's imagination or a coyote or dog with mange. I have a very close friend that is from Querro Texas where they are pretty common. Several have been gathered from road kills or people shooting them because they are bad about killing chickens and goats. They are strange looking but healthy and well adapted animals. the thing is that despite the real facts they are still considered cryptids.

    The Texas chupacabra is a hybrid cross of a Texas coyote and a Mexican Wolf. Like a lot of hybrids it took some from each and the final product is not exactly like either of the originating breeds. Also as sometimes happens it has characteristics that are not dominant genes in either of the originating breeds but came out in this mix. The Texas Chupacabra is coyote sized with a long slender snout and a slight overbite. It has bright blue eyes, no fur to amount to anything and its hind quarters are oddly shaped with a couple of fleshy growths that make it look strange.

    At some point this crossing happened and that litter of cubs with these odd characteristics didn't just survive, they thrived and now are a consistently breeding subspecies. They are odd but no more so than a Shar Pei or a Mexican Hairless dog. People have been making strange looking dogs from wolves for centuries. Why is it so inconceivable that nature might do it occasionally too?

    Since I know for a fact that some so called cryptids are not at all imaginary I will not write off the sightings of others based on the so called EXPERTS opinions.

    PS: Play nice kids...
     
  24. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Okay...let's take this one at a time goober.

    Ok Ken, you think I was deriding you for believing in god(s)..which one?
    You brought up god(s) in one of your replies. You made the claim that you didn't believe in bigfoot, or god(s). The topic wasn't god(s)...it was a segue on your part to cast derision on those who believe in Bigfoot (which as you keep getting wrong...I never claimed to believe, only allow for the possibility)...and then to add a barb about a completely different topic that wasn't being discussed.

    Because if you believe in one you cannot logically dismiss the possibility that others exist. That doesn't mean I expect you to believe in them all or worship them all.
    The above sentence makes zero sense. It is a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. Because you claim one follows another, it is causal, and it (falsely) makes your assertion true. One has nothing to do with the other and the belief or disbelief in one is not related...so...coughcoughbullshitcoughcough.

    Your basic grasp of logic isn't very good so you resort to swearing and abuse because you're obviously not equipped to debate with someone smarter then you.

    Smarter "then" me? For crying out loud, you can't even use a simple tense of a word correctly, and you try to place yourself on a pillar of intelligence? Before you run crying and screaming to the rafters about Nazi Grammarism...if you can't even communicate in the English language, you can't be taken seriously when you try (and fail) to make your argument. Remember, screaming GRAMMAR NAZI is the ignorant person's equivalent of pulling the race card. Poorly played by the way.

    If you want to believe in big foot, unicorns or fairies it's all the same to me.
    Again...you run back to the incorrect assertion that I "believe". I pointed out repeatedly that I was still a skeptic, and allowed for the possibility. There is a universe of difference between belief and skeptical curiosity. But, again...you keep running past that and trying (in vain) to make your assertion true by saying it over and over. Of course, you try to add unicorns and fairies into the mix to insinuate a belief to take the original topic out of the realm of plausibility and into the one of fantasy.

    You're opinions are obviously more important to you then your manners.
    You're opinions are obviously more important to you "then" your manners. Just so we're clear it is ...THAN your manners.

    My manners are actually pretty good. It is my tolerance for bullshit and derisive comments made by keyboard kommandos who have a fallacious belief that they are smart, funny, or somehow influential that is low. You demonstrate that you are neither smart, funny, or influential. You apparently have tender feelings about how something is said, rather than (correctly used tense for your future reference) the content of what is being said when you get called out for acting like a dick. Personally, I don't give a shit how something is said as long as it is factual, or not designed to ridicule others. Once you put it on the table, however, then yes...I will cuss like a sailor and shred you like a sickle.


    Remember it was you who asked if we believed or not.
    Absolutely. You're finally right about one thing. I asked a question.

    ...at first I said I didn't know, not that I don't believe...you just had to try and ram your opinion down my throat.
    But again...I never tried to "ram" anything down anyone's throat, and I specifically didn't even address you until your last snarky and derisive comment. Whether or not YOU believe isn't germane to the continuation of the discussion between others. Somehow, and on some planet you must believe yourself to be so important that once you make the declaritive statement that something is "a waste of time", then discussion between others MUST therefore end because YOU don't want to discuss it anymore and that a further discussion between others is somehow, on some planet "trying to ram an opinion down your throat". And you claim MY logic is faulty? Good lord, you win the prize for most incorrect sentences on the internet today.

    That was one more in long line of fallacious statements you have made that only serve to further damage your non-existent credibility within the context of this discussion.

    Had I been trying to convince YOU of anything, I would have addressed YOU and not been having an intelligent discussion with others.

    The only thing I have rammed down your throat is the fact that you were acting like a dick.
     
  25. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    There are other animals out there that are also fundamentally genetic mules, some sterile while others are able to breed. There is no point in denying that a horse and donkey can produce offspring but I doubt that it has any bearing on the question of whether Sasquatch exists TexDanm, after all no-one is saying that Sasquatch is some kind of hybrid are they? If so why would it's supposed "unknown DNA" be unknown? Regarding the rest of this discussion, you're quite right, we should play nice (or not play at all ) so I've blocked his posts. They weren't worth reading anyway.
     
  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    db6af123d961656b2156cd8e87cc4a3e.jpeg
    Ronald seeks spiritual guidance from Bob
     
  27. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I wasn't trying to say that Bigfoot might be a hybrid. My point is that even when there is solid iron clan proof that something exists the "authorities" may well still deny that it exists. Even when it is understood in the wonderful world of "science" until the people in power that have placed their ego onto their opinions have died there can be very little basic change in the official line.

    Some people seem to just love to fight, fuss and act like spoiled kids online I just ignore their childishness.
     
  28. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Pretty much what it takes for a species to be catalogued and accepted by the powers that be is for an example to be killed, dissected, preserved and put into the collection of a natural history museum. I think this is wrong on so many levels, even if it's just a new kind of frog, or butterfly. For this reason alone I hope big foot remains a myth.

    That's the great thing about being able to block people TexDanm, it makes it so much easier to do.
     
  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    uncalled for Ken, please try and keep the conversation civil or I will be required to put my moderator hat on. thank you.
     
  30. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I keep thinking of what a mess it would be if some fool shoots a "bigfoot" and the DNA says it is basically just a butt ugly human!! I used to have a neighbor that could have run around barefoot and caused a bigfoot panic. Sammy was 6'8" and wore a size 22 EEE boot!!! He was almost hairy enough to pass off as some sort of gorilla too. All that said he was a very sweet man and a good neighbor. He had the biggest feet that I've ever seen though. LOL...
     
  31. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Ken,

    Pretty much what the Hoopa Indians state on that reservation. They have a sort of "Accommodation/Respectful agreement" with them going way back in recognition that they have been there at least as long as their Indian tribe. Or one could say...living within the nature of what a thing is...living with nature for short. They are raised with this knowledge...from their youth.


    One of the interesting stories told to David Paulides is of a man taking care of natures business in a hall closet. This hall closet has a tip open window at the top of the wall...you put your finger in the loop latch and open the window in the olde manner...by tipping it inward on the bottom hinge.

    Now he is on the throne taking care of natures business when a huge and long hairy arm comes through this window and starts feeling around in the throne room. Of course he ducks and scrambles out of the closet.

    I found that tale to be humorous from the safety of my Lazy Boy Recliner.

    The other interesting tale is of a woman who was out front of her home when one of these large squatches came by. The Squatch looked at here in no panic or fear...and she exhibited none as well. She went on to offer the squatch some apples from her basket and the squatch took some and when on their way. So she saw the squatch from up close.


    Thanks to all for their posts,

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     

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