Defeating Ir (infrared)

Discussion in 'Other Advanced Survival Skills' started by Dalewick, May 5, 2021.

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  1. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Infrared scopes, cameras and surveillance devices weren't really a thing when I was a young man in the Army. So I have had learn about there capabilities on my own. From what I've witnessed if you have any kind of a barrier between you and the IR device and enough distance between you and that barrier that your body heat doesn't warm the barrier. There is some advertised clothing that can supposedly defeat IR but I personnaly have no experience with it. One of them is sold as Camoshield.



    Camoshield (ufpro.com)

    I would love to hear from anybody that has actual experience with this clothing and knows if it works or not.

    Here is a more old school way of hiding.





    Would like to hear the experience of others.

    Dale
     
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  2. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Bump
     
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  3. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Just to clarify, there is a huge difference between IR scopes and thermal. IR is simply a scope that will see reflected infra red light which we could not otherwise see. Thermal scopes work quite differently and differentiate different amounts of heat radiated by the target and its surroundings. A thermal scope cannot even see through a double glazed pane of clear glass while an IR scope can.
    They're both entirely different but can be combined in some models of digital day/night scopes.
    IR scopes are also usually used in conjunction with an IR lamp which can be seen by another IR device if it "sees" that particular wavelength.
     
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  4. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Actually, there's not a huge difference. Both use IR radiation and the differences in that energy to produce there images. I've used FLIR in the past for LEO duties and it couldn't look through glass either. Glass acts as a great mirror for FLIR systems. Neither system works the way they show on TV or the movies. If they worked that well, no one could hide from one. Infantry and Special Ops know how to hide from them and since hide construction has not really changed in the last 40 years except for some materials, hiding from IR, FLIR or Thermal isn't rocket science. Just sayin.

    When a drone passes over it's looking for certain signatures that either trigger a program or alert the pilot. Soldiers are trained to look for the same things, ie. shapes, shadows, shine, etc. Eliminate all of these and there is nothing to focus on. You become invisible. Invisible is good, sometimes essential.

    Dale
     
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  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    unless one is a criminal or in an army fighting a war what would be the reason for using such technology? isnt it fairly expensive for just random use.
    even in a SHTF scenario if one is far enough away from the big cities and not fighting against the ruling power and have nothing of worth why would such technology be used against us?
    just thinking out loud.
     
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  6. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    NODs (Night vision devices) are actually quite common in the states now. You have the typical LEO and military uses but now many hunters and others have them. Of course the criminals are now figuring out how to use them also. It is being used by gangs and smugglers for everything from targeting people for robberies to evading security officers and LEO's. I figure if the bad guys have it now they would have it when SHTF and they are looking for stuff to steal and people to hurt.

    A criminal could just look for heat signatures from houses and vehicles to know whos living and where there at after a major SHTF. Knowing how to hide could make a difference.


    Dale

    And it was a post that's not political. LOL!
     
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  7. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Well It's often legitimately used for pest control on nocturnal species like wild boar. A basic digital IR scope from ATN can be bought for as little as $600 and a thermal scope from about $1100. You can spend a lot more on an ordinary optical rifle scope.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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    1. Dalewick
      They are great for predator hunting.
       
      Dalewick, May 6, 2021
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  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I think the possibility over here of criminals having them especially in a post SHTF situation to be very rare and none at all where I live.
    I have toyed with the idea of having some kind of night vision capability for post SHTF but find the cost outweighs the possible use.
     
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  9. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    There are basic digital monocular devices that are very reasonably priced.
     
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  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I have looked at some monoculars but they only work in low light not at night.
     
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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    One has to have an infrared light source. Infrared lamps can be pointed out onto your property from roof lights. They make infrared floodlights. Flood your property with infrared, then use your scope to look out there.

    I find mine useful just for detecting if a person or animal is out there.

    If your scope has its own source of the light, then you just lit your own self up for an enemy who could have a scope. You could momentarily turn your scope/IR-light on, look, then switch the unit off. Leave it on and ... well ... not good. Most criminals are stupid and crude beyond belief -- they have no IR goggles.
    .
     
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  12. Rebecca

    Rebecca Master Survivalist
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    To Dale's original question, no unfortunately I can't give any info on the clothing either. But the concept is interesting. At the same time I have also done the research about hiding from thermal, especially if someone is "hunting " you.

    In my personal opinion, for this area, IR is not so uncommon as to be dismissed. I have used FLIR in volunteer activities. And I know people with both kinds of scopes, as well as monocular devices, which you can get for surprisingly cheap.
     
  13. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    An opportunity for experimentation
     
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  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  15. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  16. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    Dale, like you, my prime army experience was just before fancy optics, GPS, etc (1980s and early 1990s when I was in front line units before changing careers to a REMF). The thermal sights were just being issued to the scout platoons for us ground pounders and I only got to gaze through them on occasion, and I had no exposure to infrared sights. Of course, now they law enforcement and all the three letter agencies have them. I would imagine me in a cold weather environment would make my signature even more pronounced.

    I wonder if there are reasonably priced blankets that you could throw over yourself designed to shield you from IR? With clothing, I wonder if repeated washing would degrade the shielding property and my big ugly head might give off enough signature. For those who cache, a blanket of sorts might be something to consider adding to your cache. In my environment I could see airborne activity to be a threat, but you can hear any type of aircraft or drone from a long way off. Hiding under a blanket for a few hours while the aircraft hits on the abundant moose in the area might do the trick. I need to think about this.

    I also wonder how well that stuff can see through my log cabins with 12 inch thick walls and metal roofs. I admit to being clueless about this. I should probably look at getting an IR spotting scope. During the winter when it is mostly dark and dead quite you can almost constantly detect moose moving slowing in the distance but you can never see them unless they get in a clearing nearby. Could make harvesting a bit easier.
     
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  17. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I'm wondering if one were to sandwich a "space-blanket" (one of those thin Mylar thingies) in between two blankets, you'd get a cover that would reflect your body heat back your way and keep it from radiating out. The blanket on your side would protect the space blanket from mechanical injury while you move about; these space-blankets can be rather thin and non-robust. The outer blanket could be a camouflage tarp. The top layer would keep regular ambient light from reflecting off the shiny space blanket and would match the colors of your environment. One could sew these three layers together to make a quilt. Could crisscross the stitching just like any quilt is stitched so that the layers would stay in place and not lump-up/gather.

    If FLIR was not your immediate concern, such a quilt sure would keep you warm! If you had a good ground pad plus such a "quilt" you could at least not freeze to death. If the upper camo layer was waterproof (a tarp material), it would also keep the rain off of you = another life-saver.

    Here's a helo FLIR looking at one or two soldiers using that Mylar/space-blanket material. Since this is military, I bet the Mylar cover was robust. The write-up says that they were using a "cheap space-blanket" -- OK, so I don't believe that; the military doesn't go cheap. I wish we had a regular vid along with the FLIR vid; that way, we could see if their Mylar had a camo top. At night it wouldn't matter, but it sure would at dusk or dawn.

    One could have a flat piece of rigid plastic (say two meter by two meter), secure the anti-FLIR "quilt" to the top of the plastic , have handles attached to the underside of this thing. The result would be a portable "roof" for a person. You could hold it above you if you heard an enemy bird. Sometimes it's concealment when you don't have cover. Or, instead of a board, have a deployable mesh -- y'know, like an umbrella. One could create a BIG folding-umbrella that had a camo top (facing the sky) with a Mylar (heat reflective) underside (facing soldier).



    Here's a cheaper demo. No helo fuel.



    I'm thinking something like an umbrella, yet not so rounded. Deployable, but not too heavy.
    Hmmmmmmmm.....

    upload_2021-5-9_13-56-38.png
     
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  19. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Alaskajohn, Nothing can look through your cabins 12 inch thick walls....nothing but Superman anyway. I figure your safe. A quick way to check how well insulated a place is, is to get one of the laser thermometers and check and see if your walls are warmer than the surrounding objects. I bought mine at Harbor Freight for about $15. I have found that the bubble wrap with mylar on top has no signature. A piece of burlap on top of that, creates a good base for camouflage. I tried this out with a park ranger buddy this past winter and set up a chicken wire over PVC pipe frame and added bubble wrap and a mylar blanket on top. That alone gave zero signature of someone sitting or laying under it. When I place burlap over that with a little snow and some brush. It vanished and the scope showed nothing. I even set the spotting scope up back inside, like I would have for a observation post. Nothing showed.

    It dispelled a lot of the myths that surround these devices for me.

    Dale
     
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  20. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    It appears that in the non-helo video that where the body contacts the mylar, it develops a heat signature from the thermal heat being transferred to the mylar. That barrier between the body and the mylar seems to be a big issue to prevent heat transfer to the mylar. I noticed this winter that if we wrapped in the mylar, it started to glow from our body heat. I also realized that if the cover wasn't big enough there was a heat signature above us where our body heat was escaping. The same happened in the OP if we were too close to the top edge of the cover (within 6 - 9 inches) and there was no breeze.

    OG, The military gets everything from the lowest bidder. A fact they never let you forget. The mylar blankets in SERE kits are very thin.

    Dale
     
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  21. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    " ... where the body contacts the mylar, it develops a heat signature from the thermal heat being transferred to the mylar ..."

    "I noticed this winter that if we wrapped in the mylar, it started to glow from our body heat."

    Good information.

    So, the Mylar would HAVE to have AT LEAST a blanket between it and the soldier -- something that would have the same effect of 6 - 9" of dead air space insulation's worth. Looks like a canopy / umbrella structure would have to exist. The soldier should certainly not contact the Mylar material. Even the best insulation could hold heat against the Mylar. The Mylar has to have air space, or better yet, air flow between it and the persons underneath.

    Shame about military cheapening things out. Used to be the best.

    The Germans and Swiss over-engineer the hell out of everything. Swiss military bikes used to be HEAVY -- not good for climbing mountain roads.

    I was just a kid in high school; we were at Ft. Leonard Wood Missouri for a rifle match; had a fatigue coat I'd gotten at a Good Will store (or some equivalent type store back then); coat I didn't think was that old. We stayed in the barracks; shot as much pool as on the range. Soldier said that my coat was of better quality than the one he'd been issued. Sad. That was Vietnam era. So, even back that long ago, I guess things started down hill. Freaking shame. In high school we were issued used M14s.

    The M-16s just never impressed me. I've never owned an AR-15. The 5.56 is just too puny. I wish back then, the bullet diameter had been dropped to 6.0 or 6.5mm -- no smaller. I'd like to have a rifle chambered for that range of bullet diameters. Saw a 6.5 Grendel in a CZ bolt yesterday -- it was the cutest little thing. I have no ammo stored for those calibers and ammo is too expensive right now. Thirty years ago, a friend of mine started buying up 6.5 Swedish Mausers and crates of ammo. I should have bought-up some of that myself. He also bought some Swedish carbines. Just the ticket.

    Quality military equipment. Shame it's disappearing.
    .
     
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  22. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    If you want good quality military surplus, buy British. I still have 2 SAS smocks that I still use. They buck the wind and resist anything but the hardest of rains. I had one of the Swiss Alpenfladge jackets years ago and it was pretty good. When I look for gear I usually look for what is being bought by special operations soldiers. This is stuff bought by special purchase and doesn't go through the military bidding process. These guys get top of the line gear that will stand the rigors they put it through.

    Dale
     
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