When I think of worst case scenarios my mind goes to hostage situations. Lets say things have gotten really bad and like in some places around the world now, the only real economy becomes crimes such as piracy and kidnapping. You know that kidnappers are operating pretty much in your general area. You have heard about a couple people who survived the ordeal. They were kidnapped for two months, tortured at some level, but returned after their family and friends paid a ransom of supplies and gear. The rumor is these two men might have been sexually assaulted while in captivity but not many people really know if that is true or not. You haven't talked to these people personally, you have just heard the story passed along. You also know that some people who have been taken have not returned, in that case ransom demands were made, but that's all you know. Your info is being obtained by strangers who have traveled through your area. You were also told that the kidnappers used ski masks during the abductions. You are working in the woods, you and your two friends. Two of you are working, cutting up and gathering firewood. You have handguns in holsters and your long guns are leaned against a tree near by. Your third guy is standing watch with a long gun, with his back against a large tree. Suddenly four camouflaged men, wearing ski masks, with AR15s and Ak47s step out form behind cover and concealment. They are pointing their weapons at you and yelling, "Hands up! Hands up!" You look at your friend standing watch, he has a deer in the headlights look, frozen with fear, he brings his hands up without thinking, dropping his long gun which now hangs by the sling. Your other friend armed with the holstered handgun is throwing glances your way, as if to say "What do we do" but he also raises his hands up. The closest bad guy is six yards away and the furthers one is twenty yards away. What do you do? Fight, Flight, or Submit? I'm trying to work through what I might do in these types of situations and thought I would get your perspective.
I think you have zero options, you have to submit. Your question is a good one. Maybe the solution is two standing guard and one working.
I get you Lonewolf, you aren't into those type of scenarios. It is a "what if" question so it has a lot to do with prepping. But I will put it in a different context for you. You are on vacation or doing aid work, or missions work in the Philippines. You know many kidnappings have occurred in the area but the government thinks they now have a handle on that type of activity so you feel safe. They are kidnappings for ransom, but some are never returned, and sexual assault has happened in certain cases but not all. Usually it takes six months to three years before hostages are returned. While walking down a trail, with you and a buddy, two guys with shemagh scarfs and AK47S jump out demanding that you get down and put your hands behind your backs. You have a screw driver in your back pocket you have been carrying for personal protection on your trip. One of the attackers is only a few steps away from you. Same basic scenario different context. Do you comply and allow yourself to be restrained?
In any case where there are gun(s) pointed at you and you have no guns of your own; I think it'd be best to swallow your pride and go with them. OR!... you could pull your screwdriver and at least give the bad guys a good laugh before they shoot you. So unless you are Chuck Norris holding that screwdriver, well... you screwed yourself.
Well just for the record I can't see anyone wanting to kidnap three wood cutters, nothing to gain there. As they have not killed us when they obviously could have, I think I would ask them what they wanted. We would probably not be far from some camp or settlement, so they may not want to draw attention by opening fire. The only thing I see here that they have to gain is taking our guns. If our guns are what they want, they can have them, if not, then & would draw my side arm & drop to my back as I fired. Incidentally I have been in a similar incident, though there were seven assailants & only two of us. As you can see I am still alive. Keith.
I think it is very relevant to prepping. I am fairly confident that there are few.....if any who are more remote then myself, or have less human contact. These type of posts trigger are lot of reflection on many aspects of security. I actually have had this exact same experience dozens of times with Grizzly Bears. I can be engrossed with a project, and look up, and there is a Grizzly Bear watching me. Often they are sitting or laying down, just fascinated with this human thingie.
I tend to like "What If" scenarios. Since I can't possible think of all the different situations I might encounter, I like it when others post the questions. With that being said, I don't surrender. I will draw and fire, first at the close up person and then at the longer distance person. My action may spur the others into action but I intend to live or die free, not somebodies prisoner / toy !!! Action is faster than reaction, and if the bad guys are after hostages, they don't want dead ones and if they wanted the guns, they probably do not have enough ammo to sustain a fire fight. You only die once, torture can go on for a very long time. If you have already made up your mind about these types of situations, then it is very quick to react and draw and fire. I practice drawing a bout a dozen times everyday. Since I carry at all time and nature does call several times day, I get a lot of practice. A person can get very quick on the draw with enough practice. I can't practice quick draw and fire at the public range but I can practice fast firing from a semi-ready (already drawn but not raised) position. I think I would be faster than most opponents could react.
In that scenario you would be the leverage not the one being exploited. And hostages make good leverage for many, many things.
I guess the problem here is potentially that you are not the only one that may feel the consequences of choosing to fight. Another member in the group may have decided submitting was the smart move. You quick drawn and in the fight he is the one that ends up dead or gut shot. Not saying fighting is wrong, just considering all factors.
Excellent point but since he did not consult with me about his surrender, I have no obligation to consult with him regarding my choice to fight. Those that will surrender freedom, for security, deserve neither. I forget who quoted this originally and I am too lazy to look it up. Anybody in a group I would associate with, would know I would not surrender and could always choose to not associate with me. I am willing to bet most of the member here knew what I would have chosen. A dead captive cannot be used for barter and has no leverage. Thus even in my death, I have served my family or group.
the only hostage events I have ever heard about(it wont happen in my neck of the woods) is people or their family who have money, lots and lots of money, either that or like the women in Syria who were kept as sex slaves, neither of which apply to me!
The first mistake is to be somewhere that this sort of stuff happens Next , if you are in that sort of country why do you appear wealthy enough to be taken hostage? The rest is not printable Not a realistic possibility where I am .
Maybe my point in the original post was to raise the question so that if you found yourself in that type of environment you would have this type of question before such an event, so that you would know what he would want.
Think of this as a “What if” question from a friend or relative who ventures outside of the safety or your shire. In most places around the world if you travel, you are looked at as someone with lost and lots of money. Thus if a relative of yours was to travel they are potential targets. Say they come to you and say, Uncle Lonewolf, I know your ship is in the harbor, but I want to sail mine and travel, and I want your advice on this security matter.
I do travel to these areas. By the nature of you being there, affording travel, beginning granted a visa, marks you as extremely wealthy in those places. Things like height and skin color makes it impossible to go unnoticed.
I could only advise them what to do, or not to do, as I have in the past in real life, the decision is up to them, and the consequences.
If you choose to go there you take the risk Precautions are get your shots, get insurance and maybe get your affairs in order. Hostages have the same life expectancy as fighters At least as a fighter you can approach the pearly gates with your head high!
[/QUOTE] My original post was a hypothetical of if things got that bad where you live. As far as myself, I’m not known for shying away from a professional use of counter violence. However I also understand having many tools in your toolbox.
My original post was a hypothetical of if things got that bad where you live. As far as myself, I’m not known for shying away from a professional use of counter violence. However I also understand having many tools in your toolbox.[/QUOTE] big IF, unlikely where I live.
My best advise to give for this is; Even in this TEOTWAWKI, unlikely scenario. Always be an unlikely victim... always. Don't advertise all your weapons. Have a concealed gun and knife. And Hell, carry one out in the open too. So if anyone takes that one from you, you still have something for them. Patient subterfuge.
I see a lot of avoidance here. Would you surrender and become a hostage or go for your weapons and possibly get you and somebody else killed or injured. Just because it may not, will not or could not happen in your neck of the world is not the question. If you don't know, say I don't know, honest answer but the question should bring out some food for thought.
I would go for it and maybe a little play acting to cover manouvering I am old my life has little value But my honour is intact and I intend to keep it unto death when ever that is!
I like the idea of a little patience to earn your draw. I will tweak the scenario just for you a bit. If it were family members with you, like a wife, daughter or grand daughter would it change your decision?
No, I would rather they die fast than be the toys of somebody trying to take them prisoner. Also they may have a chance once I draw and start firing. Plus my wife, daughter or granddaughter would also be shooting. My family would not be unarmed or unwilling to defend themselves or they would not be allowed out in the forest. Two legged critters are not the only reason to be armed in the forest.
Sorry wife has already gone to hell, no daughters . One son who will race me for the trigger but not as cold blooded as me. Decision is fixed we even have a pact not to rescue the other but to avenge them.
Despite that, do you see the value in training for situations where you are captured and held in captivity?
Well I guess I need to move to where you live so nothing bad will ever happen to me. I can even leave my gun at home, or just get rid of it altogether. But until I move there, I will keep prepping for possible versions of the future. Kidnappings are a real threat areas, that still have active law enforcement. I’m preparing for a situation with a destabilized Government. Just because everything is okay today doesn’t mean it will be that way tomorrow, history shows us this time, and time, and time again.
Ah, two separate issues, surrender and escape. You don't ever surrender when there is any possibility of defense or escape. You can be captured, but you always look to escape.
I think the common mindset is that being kidnapped is the end of the game. Or even that escape is the only way to improve your your situation or survive. And this simply isn’t true. You can’t guarantee your survival in captivity but neither can you if you are armed. But there is life after captivity if you find yourself there. There is also a skill/heathy mindset to be developed prior to captivity. You want to mentally go there before you have to physically go there. And learn techniques, tactics and strategies to make it through.
Okay, I will bite, what skillful mind set allows you to deal with torture, rape, sodomy , starvation and a few other nasty things that do happen to captives? Is living at any cost better than dieing?
Perspective, mitigation, abatement, silent protests, misdirection, deescalation, negotiations, humanization to name a few.
I don’t know if you are suggesting no plan, but mitigate vs exasperate seems like an easy choice. And yes it is an intentional mindset and a learned/practiced skill.
So you would rather suffer these fates verse fighting and maybe dying. Okay got it, I hope you never have to put method to the test.
I never said what I would do. But survival is about flexibility and not always and never thinking. In addition even if I would choose to fight, I want to be able to teach women and children how to survive such incidents.
What makes you think they would survive. Ask how well it went for many of the Christian women captured by IsI or the Yazidi women or the gay men. Drawing a weapon to try and prevent capture does require much thought and much practice. I am guessing you have never been forced to draw under fire to protect your life , property or neighborhood. You may try and negotiate with thugs for the return of hostages but you do not negotiate after you have become a hostage. At that point, you are a slave to the whims of your captors.
you could do a lot worse, I think your living on fantasy island, unless of course you are a millionaire with lots of property and shares. I don't say post SHTF you wont be attacked, that's a possibility depending on where you are or where your going, but here we are all poor church mice.
The entire concept of prepping has to do with thinking ahead to possible scenarios. This allows you to consider ahead of time what your best choice for action might be. It is counterproductive to just say "that can't happen to me." The thing that WILL get you is the thing that you were SURE could never happen to you. You may feel that nobody could ever attack you but that isn't realistic lone wolf. Even in a country that has been disarmed there ARE guns and the people that have them are not ALWAYS nice. Where do you think the guns that the military and law enforcement have are going to be in the weeks and years after the fall? We all seem to believe that the cities are going to become death traps with no food or water. When people get hungry the survivors are going to go into the countryside to first get away from the hell that the cities have become and secondly to find food. The rural areas where food is grown will have to protect themselves and their food. People that lie out in the countryside tend to keep a better food supply than city people even if they don't grow food themselves. A lot of these people are going to be ROUGH. Being nice or a good person doesn't always transfer too well to surviving in tough times. Many people are going to become little more than animals and predatory. To each their own but depending on the circumstances I may well choose to die a warriors death rather than accept slavery or worse.
My intention is that if confronted by this sort of situation that it will be my wife and kids that fire the first shots. I'm big and will be who they will be most closely watching. The women and kids will have a better chance to take action than me so they will and are prepared to take the lead shot. When they shoot I will move and will drop at least one while they are trying to figure out what is happening. Actions are always faster than reactions.
just how long will people wait until they realise there is something wrong? hurricanes and tornados, a nuclear attack is an obvious sign, but it probably wont be like that, it could be slow and insidious, hardly noticeable for awhile until the power goes off many people wont even notice, most people will be dead long before they can get out of the cities, roads will become giant parking lots full of abandoned vehicles, out of fuel and damaged, roads will be good places to avoid because of the chance of attacks, walking? just how far will people walk? or be able to walk? I live in a country where most people don't walk more than 200 yards from their vehicle. remember, people who go anymore than 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food will be incapable of going very far in less than that time because they will be too weak to do so. my country has an obesity crisis because people are eating crap food, diabetes is also a major problem here.
Pulling the trigger under stress isn’t for the casual study. Counting on the wife and kids to sneak an ambush counter attack is expecting a lot. And assuming the criminals will ignore them is a leap to far in optimism. I’m not trying to be mean, but consider the downfalls counting on this. They will likely freeze and submit, or worse yet be the first to take action and get injured instantly.
