To be prepared to deal with a situation, you must first accept the situation could occur. Yes I will draw and fire and with my practice I will stand a good chance of success. Action is much faster than reaction. I sincerely doubt many folks practice being flexible with a terrorist hostage taker or get to practice teaching them humanity or any of the above mentioned methods. I will stick with what I can practice and become proficient with and you can stick to you unproven, untested methods. I learned how to make fire and I don't have to hope a meteorite strikes near. One method is tested, the other is wishful thinking.
nobody I know has ever been ambushed or attacked, nobody I know has even been burgled, let alone been made a hostage and that's in the here and know. post SHTF my main problem will be boredom. not people.
That is a pretty low opinion of women. I know women that would and could cut your heart out and have it for breakfast. During the pioneer days, the last thing you wanted was to be captured and turning over to the native women. If the family has actually practiced this, then the results are certainly more in their favor than surrendering.
ROTFLMFAO You don't know my wife. She worked 25 years in prison most of those years on the prisons housing death row and the "problem children". My "little girl" has now got 10 years in the prisons. They both carry a legally concealed pistol and are well trained in their use. My girls will kill you in a flash while YOU are looking at me. I am a deadly shot but my daughter is beyond me. She started shooting when she was 5 or 6 and has always been able to make the hard shots. Having a gun in her hand is something that she has done all her life. I was a licensed gunsmith and dealer when she was little. there were too many guns around her for her not to be familiar with them and have safe gun handling as a form of just natural life skills. Maybe your women will freeze up but mine have dealt with stress and people that would like to hurt them extensively.
Well I went back and checked to be sure, and nope, I’ve never said what I would choose or recommend one course of action. Only brought up points to consider. Yet I’ve been called yellow and assumptions have been made. Which entertains me. In regards to things I’ve been talking about being unproven, that’s factually not true. And the belief that you have to choose between learning combative skills vs hostage survival skills is a fallacy argument. You can be skilled at both and apply whichever one you see fit in the moment.
I think you'd be right about women in UK cities, there is a movement afoot in all major cities which is anti gun and anti hunting, its also anti knife because of all the stabbings in London and a couple of other places. I belonged to a gun club and that only had 2 women members.
What you describe lonewolf may be true where you live but where I live that is alien. We hunt and fish and even in the cities people are out running and doing stuff in the parks. We are a very busy people. The scenario proposed at the start of this topic is extremely likely to be an often repeated one in the early days, say the first 6 months to a year, of a catastrophe. Most city folks that don't hunt are going to be shocked to find out that you can't just walk into the woods and kill something. They are going to be hungry and I can see them trying to take a kill from someone else. For me, this is one of the things that I prepared for a long time ago. I have about 5 different options and depending on the people involved I will call the shot.
To be fair I don’t think MOST men would draw and fire when they have a gun in their face either. I don’t think that is demeaning to anyone.
Tex, hear what I’m saying. I’m saying I wouldn’t count on people assuming your wife and daughter isn’t dangerous. If they have the experience you speak of, experienced criminals pick up on subtle behavior and not so subtle indicators. I don’t see them disregarding them as a threat, especially if they are overtly armed. It’s not a knock on their marksmanship ability.
When dealing with people I tend to offer them options. I'm a talker and would probably offer to share rather than fight. In the end, though I have NO trust in the kindness of thieves and would rather take my chances with a gun in my hand than on my knees. Criminals, in general, have no respect for weakness. My wife did well in prison because she is fearless and never backed up from a convict. She might die but she is never going to be anyone's bitch. She dealt with some of the most deadly people in the country. Some were little more than animals in human form. Living and working where we are tends to make you a hard person. Every day when those gates close behind you, you have to know and be prepared to fight if it comes to that. If you walk the walk you seldom have to do the deed but when a criminal looks you in the face he has to see nothing but trouble coming from messing with you. If he sees fear you are in trouble. What you don't understand is that I don't CARE if they are watching me or them. The fact is that only a very few well-trained people can react as fast as trained people can ACT. If you walk up and stick a gun in my face I WILL take it from you and beat you half to death with it. I have proven this over and over to people. The fact that you didn't shoot me means that before you CAN you have to decide to do it and in that time I will have acted and you will not be able to catch up because from that point on all you can do is react to my actions. In the end, though I just am not willing to surrender to a thief...
a lot of people in this country don't cook, they microwave everything, so I don't think they can cook anything once the power is down, most times they don't even know which animal, its just a plastic packet in the supermarket with a lump of meat labelled pork, beef or lamb, like I say most city people here are anti hunting. I expect the die off to be HUGE.
If I take ACTION I can die but once. A HOSTAGE can die a thousand times. I choose a single honourable death if it so be.
Another way of looking at it is, you only die once. So don’t waist your life on a small death, or get others close to you killed, submit. Survive captivity, then come back, hunt them down, one by one, when you have an advantage and systematically take them all out effectively.
Really, would you really rather be a slave and somebodies sex toy or some sadist's new experiment vs. risking your life to defend yourself? So far you have offered platitudes but no proof your suggested tactics have ever worked or do work or even could work, just your personal opinion they might work. You said they have worked but I and nobody I have talked with has ever heard of this method, much less that it has ever worked. There are thousands of documented cases where people have successfully drawn against armed attackers and not only survived but survived unharmed. Maybe I have missed these reported cased where hostage takers have been convinced to treat their slaves nicely or that being a slaves was not so bad. Added this point: What makes you think you would survive the abuse to go hunt them down later. Once they have had their fun and games with you, they will simply shoot, stab, set you on fire , hang you or maybe you just die from your tortures. Your assumption you will survive to exact justice is completely unfounded. Sure there are time when a person does not need to resort to violence but YOUR scenario was not one of those cases. Meeting somebody armed in the woods does not automatically require me to draw and fire BUT the second they raised / point their weapons at me or order me to disarm, that required an immediate lethal response. While you are thinking about what to say to them, they have closed in and your options have just ended. Your own observation regarding body language validated my position and response, not yours. Their body language, their demands all indicate the appropriate response is to shoot down these mad dogs, not invite them for tea.
TMT you think I invented these strategies and concepts? Journalists, business men and aid workers all over the world are trained on these methods of survival. Which is experience passed down from a long list of people who have survived such incidents. You may not know people who have survived by these methods, but there is a great number of people who have. You just aren’t going to read about it in a gun magazine or on trigger time TV. Because it doesn’t sell guns and holsters. The implication that these concepts have no merit or track record of midigating such situations is just not factual. Also the lack of an understanding of these skills and concepts have proven to increase the risk of an unsuccessful out come in terms of survival. Again I’m not saying you have no chance or that going out in a blaze of glory isn’t an option. But there is also a scenario where resistance leaves you seriously injured but alive long enough to experience pain and discomfort beyond what would happen potentially in captivity. Submitting might get you killed eventually but if you stay alive it also means a chance at escape, resist, be rescued or a successful negotiation. Although in the scenario I intentionally left a fight option on the table, the reality is that if the bad guy does his job correctly the capture might be nearly impossible to avoid. So having hostage survival skills and being prepared mentally as much as possible to operate in that environment is a very practical skill set to develop.
Care to share these skill as they pertain to the scenario you presented. We are not talking about some rich person that got kidnapped or some diplomat or aid worker who might get ransomed by their government or organization. So please tell us how us how, while chopping wood in the forest,when confronted by armed men demanding you disarm, these alternate survival methods will work? Remember this is your initial "What if" post question. See, in my opinion, you posed a "What If" situation and then did not like the responses. So you are trying to alter the situation to fit YOUR responses. Yes in some ransom situations, going in guns blazing is not the first choice but maybe, just maybe if nobody negotiated with the kidnappers or terrorists, then these actions would have stopped long ago. No profit, no reward and no sense in continuing the practice. Just like when companies decided it was cheaper to settle lawsuits, then the lawsuits proliferated. Appeasing kidnapper or terrorists like Obuma did, is the wrong answer. The Somali Pirates did not stop attacking shipping until they started getting killed. Might does not make right but it does solve the situation.
No. I’m pretty comfortable with my original scenario. Your plan is to draw and fire a handgun against four armed men pointing AKs initiating action with the element of surprise,with the furthers being 20 yards. And you believe you have a good chance of surviving unharmed. Because you are a fast draw expect. I gave context in the scenario to draw commonalities between the kidnappings in the scenario to the types of kidnappings you described above. That wasn’t accidental on my part, it was to give more context to make more informed decisions. In other words these kidnappers in the scenario are doing it for ransom and a negotiated release is a realistic expectation the same as it is for business men abroad. The skills translate. In regard to me slight adjusting the scenario as we talk, that is a positive way to draw out common survival principles and see how they work in a variety of situations. Why? Because principles are what save you typically, not how you answer to a highly specific scenario that you will never encounter.
Those skills are for females and steers and they have there place. But "MEN" are another matter! Your posts suggest you are not! Why carry a gun if one is not man enough to use it and your scenario is exactly why one carries a gun!
Being a hostage equals death Never become a hostage or refuge! Oh and don't stand and shoot, move and shoot
You know me so well..... But at least YOU are seeing that these strategies have a place in the tool box. If not to use yourself than to teach to women and children. Without understanding and study them you can’t teach them.
Statistically in real life this is not true. And it wasn’t statistically true in the scenario I presented. I’m not saying that means you should allow yourself to be taken, only that the game isn’t necessarily over if you were, and that you can possess and develop a skill set to help you.
@pacmantacman We will never agree because to me, my freedom and honor is more important than just living. You want to keep existing at any cost. we cannot find any middle ground. Unless captured, without any possible way to fight, I will not surrender. You will surrender if there might be any possibility of living. My freedom is more important than existing as a slave, hostage or chattel. For you existing at any cost is acceptable. There is no possibility of us ever getting to any kind of middle ground. Just because some hostages were returned and some were not means you would surrender. To me it was irrelevant if any had made it back, because I was not going to willing surrender my freedom. Then you tried to impose my responsibility to the others that had not considered my reactions when they raised their hands. Again their actions were irrelevant because it was my freedom at stake and I am not subject to others fear of dying. Now you talk about how it works for the rich, the diplomats and aid works. I don't seem to remember that qualifier in the OP. Why wold you discuss any specific situation that is never going to happen, YOUR OP. And I got news for you, principal never saved anybody. Conviction saves people. Determination saves people and sometimes firepower saves people. Action saves people. Acting on a principal may save somebody but having a principal never save anybody. What it really breaks down to is you are afraid to die and are willing to do what ever is needed to exist. While I value my honor and freedom above all else. So we have nothing else to debate. I do not wish to waste any further time trying to teach about color to a blind person. Being alive is not the ultimate goal, having a life worth living is the ultimate goal. A life without freedom is existing and I choose to not just exist. I choose to live or die but that is my FREE Choice. Slaves and hostages don't get that choice.
You say that principles never saved anyone, yet sighted the principle of action vs reaction as the key to your survival. Just saying... As far as you obsolving yourself from any responsibilitiy in regards to what happens to other members of your group, you can say that, but it doesn’t make it true. As you said, you plan on being action, by the nature of that actions have consequences for you and others. You can’t be action then wash your hands of that. They might have lived but they died for your honor. You statement is thick with assumptions on what I think, believe and would do. I never stated any of that. I never stated what I would do or what I’m okay with. I’m only presenting information to consider making informed decisions and strategies.
A person taken hostage even if they live never really returns! Their deprivations as a hostage profoundly change them Their bodies may be returned alive but they are broken inside never to be whole again. And unless they are well masked they intend to kill you as you can identify them.
You are correct in that they will be changed by the experience. The same could be said for people involved in a lethal shooting. In regard to people being involved in shootings I understand that reality very well, and have many, many, many close friends who have been there. In regard to hostages I do have one close friend who was a hostage for a long time under some really bad conditions. His perspective is that he enjoys life so much more after the fact, it has helped him in many ways to do the things he wants to do in life instead of waisting it. He is without question the most likable sociable kindest man I know. He chose forgiveness. I find through research that his response isn’t uncommon. However I agree that some people don’t recover. Chance does favor a prepared mind. All the more reason to train on the topics I’m discussing and mentally go there before it happens. This is why it’s also important to go there mentally as far as using lethal force.
The man you speak of was a truly broken man a broken soul looking for repair but never finding. Alive but not alive so to speak.
I have only gotten to know him after the fact. I don’t doubt he has faced challenges. However he’s extremely happy, strong, giving person with a lot of perspective and happiness. I would pick him to be on my survival team probably over anyone else because of the strength he has developed. What happened to him has become his strength not his weakness.
Now TMT and Oldguy let me add a wildcard factor. I'm going to reference an incident that is famous in certain circles called the Onion Field Incident. Have you heard of it? You wanted middle ground TMT this is it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion_Field This incident galvanized law enforcement to firmly commit as a collective team to never surrender or give up a weapon. It is drilled into every cadets head. Never again! Never again! Never again! Fight, draw and shoot, draw and back away, anything but give up your gun. This is something law enforcement has done, and everyone is on the same page. Everyone essentially agrees to this as an SOP when they hit the streets. Because that is the culture and the expectation. Now typically if a cop gives up his gun, he doesn't have the same chances of survival that an average person would in a kidnapping. However it shows what can be done as a group, if everyone is absolutely on the same page. In my opinion resisting captivity at all costs is an option for a group, however it should be considered and decided on as a group. And all of the facts should be presented as to the pros and cons of such actions. But if the group decides to a person that it will never give up its guns, then live and die by it. That's what law enforcement does, but they aren't afraid to die, nor will an officer blame a cop next to him for drawing against a drawn gun, because that is the expectation. With all of that said hostage survival skills are a very useful thing to have in your tool box. Even an officer isn't always armed.
Where is your extended perimeter of tripwires and noise makers? Where are your dogs? Why is your lookout so close to you? He should be camouflaged and out of sight. The three of you should be more spread out instead of so tightly grouped. Close enough for mutual support, but far enough apart so you can't all be covered at once. JMO, YMMV
It sounds like you have some security knowledge to avoid being surprised most of the time. Do you feel the scenario above could realistically happen to you?
with everyone's sense of survival heightened after this discussion, lets branch off a bit. If the situation does deteriorate to where there are roving bands of thieves, kidnappers, killers, how would you approach an unknown group that you have determined are friendly, and possibly may want to link up with? What opening moves/techniques would you use, realizing that you are potentially exposing yourself to a serious degree? My natural tendency is avoidance, moving in the background, Gray Man. The situation may develop where we want to link with another group.......how would you do it without getting shot, robbed or held hostage? At some point society will start to re-establish, and that will need people working together.
As long as I am conscious and can put hand to holster, I will not surrender and become a hostage. As for group agreement, I would let the group know my plans and if they did not agree, then we would have to part company. Group think does not factor into my life and death decisions.
I would argue this is a worthy topic but unrelated enough to warrant its own thread. You are talking about abatement of kidnapping and I’m bringing up the topic of mitigation. Similar but worlds apart.
I prefer my freedom at all costs. If fighting is required to keep it, so be it. Anybody that would give up their freedom when there is any other option, deserves to lose it.
NO NO AND DAMNED NO! When dealing with scumbags there words mean NOTHING once you have surrendered you are nothing more than a dead man with a heartbeat. Scumbags use words as weapons best not to hear them as they are evil little worms in your head!
Even though I'm hundreds of years old, maybe some crew of discerning, man-hungry women, may find me handsome beyond their willpower's control and with aggression carry me away to their mountain compound, there to hold me for purposes nefarious in nature. What with my overwhelmingly noble nature and all, they may have devised plans to use me for the purposes of siring future generations of Übermenschen. I am but a humble man, therefore I would likely accede to their demands. One must sometimes sacrifice for the good of humanity. And too, there is every possibility that I may currently be suffering from a fever.
A loss of freedom is not a successful outcome, except for the coward. Those that fear death above freedom will sacrifice anything and everything. It is not about "Shoot Outs" is is about maintaining your freedom. If it can be done without any violence, so much the better. That was not your post. Hostage is a loss of freedom and that is NEVER acceptable. What is your plan?
It sounds like you are saying exchanging yourself to free a hostage would be cowardly? I DO understand not wanting to give up your freedom, but I don’t understand how that could be looked at as cowardly?
You failed to answer my question. What are your plans? Because you accomplish nothing. It is a cowardly feel good approach. Self sacrifice with poor results. The vermin are still there and you have given up your ability to free the hostages on your terms. Agreeing to surrender to vermin, only encourages the vermin. In your synapses, you would surrender a fighter for a less potent opponent. Great exchange for the vermin, poor exchange for the family or group.
I was just curious what you were willing to do in principle, being willing to is a principle, deciding not to for tactical reasons is a method. I rarely do “never” and “always” statements. There could be a scenario where I would. The same way I would go down with the titanic and let the woman and kids take the life boat. Some men don’t have that level of self-sacrifice in them. Cowardly? No. So in principle I would all day long, every day. But as a method to solving a tactical problem I agree that in many cases it would not optimize the outcome.
Honestly, no. IMO, you would have to be an idiot in a group of idiots; like the main characters in TWD. It could happen to me if I were lonewolfing it. Which would likely be the case if TSHTF right now. I hope to meet with and form a MAG when I leave Florida next year.
Is the child mine? Is the woman my wife or S/O? If my child or S/O then maybe, otherwise no way in hell. As for a "friend",I only have 2-3 friends currently for whom I would give my life. They are all smart enough to know better than get captured alive.
I notice you very carefully avoided a direct answer. Would YOU become a hostage? Would YOU exchange yourself for another hostage? I really don't care about the titanic, completely off topic. One is a hostage scenario and the other is community sacrifice. Not even close to being related but a good way to divert from answering.
I told you my hearts answer and my tactical answer. I laid out my thoughts clearly, addressing the question directly. You want me to give an “Always” answer without the totality of circumstances? What are you asking? Consider reading back over my answer.
So you ask in-deterrent questions that you won't answer your self, curious. Are you some researcher that can't answer directly for fear of altering your test results. Maybe pose question looking for research data but can't join directly in the discussion. Seems to fit the bill.