My family know the rules No one will be rescued! An attack to obliterate the enemy will in most probability happen sooner rather than later but will not be a rescue mission. Survival/release will be up to the captured. Simple really, getting taken alive and you are considered dead until proven otherwise!
A hostage is leverage and has value if they are being kept alive. If you were to trade out with the hostage, you would become the leverage, thus have value also. Unless the leverage was being used to kill you I suppose.
I was most interested in the replies to your post. The generally dismissive tone, quite frankly, surprised me. It was only after some reflection, that I realized, that as first world citizens, you are relatively sheltered, and that what you are "prepping" for, is considered "old hat" over here. It is my practice, when considering "what if" scenarios, to rank them on a 1-10 probability scale...10 being "never in a million years, discard", 1 being, (in your particular scenario), procure, post haste, a concealable escape and evasion kit, learn how to use it, familiarize yourself with standard negotiation practices, watch the 1972 film "deliverance" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliverance ,not for the brilliant "dueling banjo's" scene, but rather the "Squeal like a pig" scene, which illustrates admirably, the horror that man is capable of inflicting on his fellow man.
Absolutely not, Sir. Although I do not know what a comet is, (forum wise), I do get the gist, and none the less, apologise for not directing my criticism in a clearer fashion. I was, in fact, defending your position from distracting comments, on what I considered to be a perfectly valid point. It is within my nature, when evaluating subjects pertaining to life or death, to ruthlessly discard inputs by those "empty drums", who's primary function is to seek a soap box, from which to broadcast nothing constructive at all. I am of the opinion, that many of the woes suffered by the world, gain their momentum from humble beginings. Snyde remarks, perpetrated by those who flap their lips, merely because they have a pair, lead to cliques and politics, neither of which find favour with me. In closing, it was my intention to point out the fact that while kidnap/ambush may not be of concern to certain commentators, said fact most certainly does not preclude its possibility, for others less geographically fortunate. My second paragraph was in direct reply to your question, and was intended to be taken as it was written. As an individual responding to a legitimate question, these were the precise steps taken by me, in an effort to prepare for a risk prevalent in my country. I trust my explanation has cleared the waters.
Survival means more than breathing one more time. A hostage is a slave. Anyone that would try to take me hostage is going to use me to cause harm to those that matter to me. I refuse to participate in this as long as I have the strength and ability to resist. You NEVER negotiate with evil. They are without honor and their promises are worthless. I will always choose to die a free man over surviving as another man's tool or slave to harm those that I care about. As y'all know I live in a place covered up with prisons and my family works in them. The one all time every time rule in a Texas prison is that NOBODY is ever allowed to walk out with a hostage. They will shoot right through you and take out the prisoners attempting to escape if that is the only way to stop them. This isn't a theoretical thing this is what they have DONE in the past. The reason is simple. Every inmate KNOWS that if they take a hostage that if they try to use them to escape that they WILL be killed. If their hostage is shot and killed by the guards and the inmate survives he WILL be executed for murder. If anybody dies during an escape ALL will be tried for murder and executed. Guess what??? We have very few people that try to escape and when they do it is by being sneaky rather than violent. No hostages will ever be allowed by me or mine.
You don’t negotiate with a hostage taker, you negotiate against them. And the majority of hostage situations end with successful negotiations, not raids or sniper initiated assaults. This is true in prison settings also.
Then it is NOT Negotiating, it is a stall tactic. Very different approaches. Not even close to being a negotiation.
Unfortunately, all I have to go by are the movies. Help me out here guys. When the man in charge bangs the desk, and yells," We do not negotiate with terrorists!", is that official U.S. policy in real life?
No, in the past we had a scumbag president that did negotiate and traded 5 terrorist for a military deserter. I hope our current President never trades hostages again, for anybody, for any reason.
The US government negotiates with terrorists all the time. Especially in regard to kidnappings. While they say don’t officially pay money to them, they will negotiate with other people’s money like family and private donors. And sometimes money is paid for the “care and handling” of hostages that they don’t officially count as ransom money. In addition to that the majority of kidnappings are not ideological or carried out by terrorists groups. But rather by guerrilla fighters, revolutionaries, insurgents, or simply criminals or people labeled as hostage takers. Aside from all of these situations the US government sends top negotiators to covertly guide negotiations through other governments when they don’t want to be seen involved or compromising.
What point are you trying to articulate? The goal of crisis negotiations is definitely NOT to stall and set up a sniper shot or raid. That’s Hollywood. Absolutely getting hostages voluntarily released is the preferred and safest option.
just in what kind of a situation do you think someone would be taken hostage? most of us thankfully will never be in that sort of situation.
It seems like you are saying the world is a peaceful place where bad things don’t happen to good people? I don’t know how you arrive at that conclusion or how that analysis allows for anything less than head in the sand, sheep like level of preparedness? Not everyone is as peaceful as you are Lonewolf. To some people humans are or under the right circumstances can and have been viewed as commodities and leverage. If you want to start a thread on how unlikely crimes are to happen, okay. But again this thread is about mitigation of a situation where you are being taken hostage and or kidnapped, not if it is possible. We know it is possible it has happened a lot throughout world history.
to become a hostage someone has to have worth, either in monetary terms or as leverage for something else, now I don't know about you but I don't know anyone like that, most people are just ordinary working people. and yes, I am a peaceful person, if people leave me alone I will leave them alone.
I understand that you genuinely feel like your average person has no worth as a hostage. But not only is that not the case, that’s exactly the mindset that can get you killed in a hostage situation. And one of the things that has to be corrected during training. In many places around the world, the fact that you got there and rented a car means you are extremely wealthy. And what is a small amount of money to some is a huge amount to someone else. Express kidnappings are one example of how this plays out. Aside from that from an ideological standpoint hostages have extreme value just based on their citizenship, or by the nature of being in a certain symbolic location at the time the incident occurs.
It is real simple, if nobody dealt with the the thugs, they would quit taking hostages. Not complex or difficult equation. It there are no buyers, there will be no sellers. Don't deal or pay ransom and they will stop taking hostages. When companies started settling because it was cheaper, the law suits filed climbed substantially.
It used to be, then the traitorous scumbag odipshit and his regime traded 5 terrorists for another traitor. I hope we go back to the old policy of killing terrorists instead of negotiating with them.
then if one goes into these sorts of countries one should be prepared for these scenario's, OPSEC and situational awareness would apply. as a prepper one would plan for such events. personally I go no more than 100 miles from my house and even that is a rare occurrence. I think you are overplaying the hostage idea.
Gentlemen, This topic has captured my attention. Having just finished re-reading all the contributions, I find myself confused by the arbitrary repetition and in my opinion, mostly irrelevant responses. I see, in essence, three camps. Those who feel it will never happen to them, and therefore, anyone who does, is living in a dream world. Those who feel, that regardless of circumstance, the only solution lies in a pitched firefight. Anyone who does not agree is a coward. In addition, they deserve to be somebody’s bitch. Those who have nothing constructive to add, so attack the OP for posting a “stupid question”. Here is the original post: When I think of worst case scenarios my mind goes to hostage situations. Lets say things have gotten really bad and like in some places around the world now, the only real economy becomes crimes such as piracy and kidnapping. You know that kidnappers are operating pretty much in your general area. You have heard about a couple people who survived the ordeal. They were kidnapped for two months, tortured at some level, but returned after their family and friends paid a ransom of supplies and gear. The rumor is these two men might have been sexually assaulted while in captivity but not many people really know if that is true or not. You haven't talked to these people personally, you have just heard the story passed along. You also know that some people who have been taken have not returned, in that case ransom demands were made, but that's all you know. Your info is being obtained by strangers who have traveled through your area. You were also told that the kidnappers used ski masks during the abductions. You are working in the woods, you and your two friends. Two of you are working, cutting up and gathering firewood. You have handguns in holsters and your long guns are leaned against a tree near by. Your third guy is standing watch with a long gun, with his back against a large tree. Suddenly four camouflaged men, wearing ski masks, with AR15s and Ak47s step out form behind cover and concealment. They are pointing their weapons at you and yelling, "Hands up! Hands up!" You look at your friend standing watch, he has a deer in the headlights look, frozen with fear, he brings his hands up without thinking, dropping his long gun which now hangs by the sling. Your other friend armed with the holstered handgun is throwing glances your way, as if to say "What do we do" but he also raises his hands up. The closest bad guy is six yards away and the furthers one is twenty yards away. What do you do? Fight, Flight, or Submit? I'm trying to work through what I might do in these types of situations and thought I would get your perspective. The entire post, barring the final two lines, clearly sketch the hypothetical situation. The last two lines ask clearly, fight, flight, or submit? Both sketch and outcome requested, are logically framed, and fulfil the requirements of a standard Red Vs Blue exercise. If you are going to fight, and the only reason you can offer is some sort of suicidal jihad, then good luck with that, but it will not be on my team. You are a liability, not only to yourself, but also to me. If your choice is flight, (which, I notice, no one even considered), has this contingency been rehearsed by your team? If you are going to submit, surely then, it is with the intention of escape, when the odds are in your favour? What have you done, prior to the potential realization of such an event, to give yourself a fighting chance? The quote was by Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” The quote, when viewed in its time and context, relates broadly to protections afforded by the institute of taxation and bears little relevance to this discussion. In closing, let me assure you, I have witnessed first-hand, beer and barbeque bravado, with those same “more testosterone than brains” fools, grovelling and praying in the bottom of their foxholes, while I exchanged real bullets with real killers. Read the original post again. It is extremely frustrating scrolling through pages upon pages of nothing, in search of a line or two of anything useful…perhaps I am in the wrong place…
Tsavo, I understand what you are saying and your concern over our responses to the hypothetical scenario. Look at it from this point of view for a second. We are "preppers" and "survivalists". As part of picking this lifestyle, would we not have already considered and planned for such situations? Would trained and prepared people just traipse off into the woods with no prior planning especially if they knew such a crew was in their area of operations? If you knew such a group was in the area, would you not be even more vigilant? Would you not prepare for such a scenario? Me, I am a nobody. I was an electricians mate in the navy for a few years. Then I got out. However, my father was navy special warfare for 26 years. My friends growing up were all tied into the specwar community. Seal Team 2, 4 and 6; UDT 21 and 22; EOD, Riverine Combat Crewmen, etc. My favorite uncle was a LRRP in Vietnam and another uncle was a Ranger qualified Green Beret. I have heard all the stories. I got hazed by my dad's UDT platoon on my first Tiger Cruise when I was 10 years old. They put a bag over my head and had me over the side of the ship threatening to drop me in. My dad was nowhere in sight. Yet, I impressed his teammates when I asked them to throw me instead off dropping me. They asked why and I said because if they drop me I might get sucked into the screws; if they throw me I have a better chance to survive and swim to shore. I left all of that life behind when I became a nomad. Now, I am back to it and training up because shit is getting ready to break loose. IMO, it will likely hit you before it hits us; but that is beside the point. The best thing about my family and their friends as well as some of my friends is that they have been there and done that and I am able to learn from their experiences. If I put that scenario before my dad, he would laugh in the OP's face and ask even more questions than I did. Where was their planning? Where was their situational awareness? Getting caught completely by surprise like that was unacceptable because according to the scenario: YOU KNEW that group was in your AO and you did not plan for it. Failure to plan is planning to fail. That has been drilled into my head since at least 5 years old. I am a meticulous planner. It was a stupid scenario designed by someone who will not survive the first few weeks of WROL except by purest luck or the work of others. Not to be an asshole, but that is a fact.
Yet all special forces go through extensive training on how to survive captivity. Part of being prepared is avoidance and it’s also mitigating what you didn’t see coming.
Back when it was popular for people to hijack airplanes and make demands they learned that negotiating and giving them what they wanted just encouraged more people to do it. One thing that they learned FAST was not to highjack an Israeli plane. That was just suicide!! Soon that method of responcebecame popular and people stopped doing it.
There is no question that eliminating all tangos is ideal. However teir one teams didn’t happen over night, and it’s fantasy to think that their success rate on raids can be matched by everyday armed good guys. And often the best of the best still fail to successfully rescue hostages. Millions go into these successful raids. Taking negotiations off the table is a self imposed handicap that will likely result in the death of hostages. The US government absolutely negotiates in these situations if it is an option. They can always deal with the criminals at a later time and date when they don’t have the advantage.
Tsavo, a lot of what you are seeing is a difference in the culture that various people are raised in. I suspect that I am the one that you were referring to with this statement. "Those who feel, that regardless of circumstance, the only solution lies in a pitched firefight. Anyone who does not agree is a coward. In addition, they deserve to be somebody’s bitch." That is not my intention and I don't think that to surrender is cowardice and NOBODY deserves to be another person's bitch/slave. In many places in the world, it is quite easy for people to submit and surrender. All it takes is a serious threat and they surrender. France surrendered in a flash at the beginning of WW2. Great Britton would I believe, have fought until almost the last man was standing. The damn Germans fought until almost all they had left was old men and children. The only way the Germans could keep the Italians on the field of battle was to stand behind them and shoot any that tried to run. In operation Desert Storm the Iraqi troops couldn't surrender fast enough and worked hard to find an American to surrender to. It isn't a matter of cowardice, it is a matter of just how hard headed you are and how much you are willing to suffer to stay free. Even in the US, there are huge differences. Gangs rule the streets of so many of America's megacities. In California, it is just accepted to some extent and they work hard there to make sure that honest people don't have weapons and don't defend themselves. I live in Texas we can legally have all the guns we want AND we can carry and use them. I could wear a sword if that is what I wanted to do and I do keep a sword in my truck. I do carry a gun. We have gangs but they do not rule the streets. Terrorists have tried their stuff here and it only got them killed. The only terrorist act that killed a bunch of people in Texas was on a US military base where sadly since it is run by the US government the people on bases are not allowed to keep and carry arms. If someone starts shooting here they are going to be killed in a hurry. There are just thousands and thousands of good law abiding Texans that are willing to protect our freedoms. As a Texan, I was raised by a man that made no bones about whether or not cowardice was better than death. we are indoctrinated young here with stories like the Alamo. Those men could have surrendered, actually, they could have slipped out at night and escaped. They CHOSE to stand their ground and fight a losing battle. To this day the old Alamo building is a SHRINE to their refusal to surrender and be anybody's BITCH. I'm not saying that I am braver than someone that surrenders and for sure probably not as smart BUT there are a lot of things that I FEAR more than death and at the top of that list is to act in a way that might bring shame onto my Family name. I am rigid in my refusal to ever be a slave in any way because I am afraid to resist. This is MY choice and has been my families choice for as far back as I can track. When there is a war we go there. We are stupid and will even fight and die for other peoples freedoms. I know that all of this is alien to most people these days. I know that it isn't the best way to survive. The fact is though that it is my way and I will gladly strut through the gates of hell led by my entourage of enemies I killed in my last battle rather than be as a sheeple so afraid to die that I refused to die free and became nothing but a stronger man's bitch. I don't expect others to feel as I do. I don't judge and accept that my way may not be the best way but for me, it is the only way. I HAVE looked death in the face and had a choice to make. I grinned and fought, happy to know that if that was my day to die that I would join my ancestors without shame.
Negotiating is fine pacmantacman. In the Texas prison system, they will negotiate for the lives of the hostages. What is different is that there is never any give in that the prisoners are going to be allowed to escape or take a hostage out with them. They will feed you and talk to you all you want but at no point is there going to be a point where the life of the hostages will matter enough to allow them to escape. Here negotiating eans how is this going to end. With you dead or with you alive but no matter WHAT you are not leaving with a hostage. When you go to work in a Texas prison they make this VERY clear to you. I will Negotiate with you in the proposed scenario but at no point is me meekly surrendering on the table. The negotiation that I would have with my assailants would be how many of you are willing to die to kill me? While they think this over I will decide to either ACT or wait for their decision.
Gentlemen, Thank you! Constructive dialogue returns! I agree. Expecting to survive a post-collapse environment, with a mindset predisposed to surrender, is indeed a short drop, sudden stop certainty. Sonofliberty, your diamond in the rough, (forgive my misquote) "...where are your warning trip-lines, where is your lookout, why so close together?", was sage advice indeed. It is considerations such as these that would prevent the sketched scenario from occurring in the first place. If you are able, would you suggest a few ideas regarding situational awareness for a three-man foraging team in a high risk area? The Alamo. My heart swells with pride for those brave men. I understand that passion. It resonates within me, perhaps because I had relatives who fought at the Battle of Blood River. Check it out online. You will understand why I feel qualified to comment. Thank you for bringing this discussion back on track.
Sir, I advise you watch your tone. I will take no pleasure in embarrassing you in front of your friends. If you have an issue, let us hear it.
Given the known threat, 3 men is suboptimal imo. If that is all you have, then you must prepare the environment first. Tripwires, noise makers, traps, dogs. Trained Dogs are an excellent multiplier. They have better senses than we do. I don't mean to be heartless, I love dogs. Dogs are often more loyal than many people. However, the dogs are mobile alarm systems and meat shields. It is their job to take a bullet so that humans do not. Guard/attack dogs are not pets. They are work animals and partners in combat. Expendable partners in the scenario described. If 3 men are all you have, then 1 works while 2 watch in rotating shifts. The two watchers watch from concealed positions with cover. Everyone knows the difference between concealment and cover I assume. Outer perimeter has noisemakers on all possible avenues of approach. It is great if each avenue makes a different noise. After the noise makers come the tripwires and traps. IEDs are easily made if you don't have real devices. Caltrops are quickly and easily dispersed, but never use them to cover your avenues of retreat. If this is some place you are going to use multiple times, pit traps with punji sticks and other serious traps may be worth considering. Never leave straight avenues of approach. Dig fighting holes aka foxholes for each person in the group and leave your long guns there. If they don't see your long guns, they might not expect them. Between the advance notice from the noise makers and traps, the dogs and the counter ambush provided by two concealed shooters, a four man team should go down pretty quick. The third guy should also get to his fighting position ASAP if the dogs alert(not bark, they should be trained not to bark) or if an IED goes off. Noise makers making noise should either cause the worker to hit his fighting position or to investigate the noise while the two watchers maintain over watch. JMO, YMMV
Give it your best shot. It was your post that raised your dissatisfaction or concern if you fit on this forum. As I stated, you are free to stay or leave, again your choice.
Thanks, Sonofliberty, I appreciate your insight. I was especially impressed by your inclusion of dogs as team multipliers. I can attest personally to their efficacy. I carry out daily perimeter patrols using two working dogs, one scouting, and the other attack. This very system prevented an incident only two months ago, when a 2+ group attempted to hijack my wife at our main perimeter gate. In my particular arena, I prefer using silent perimeter alarms, which afford the ability to reverse the advantages offered by the element of surprise. I would appreciate your opinion on this strategy. I agree with the use of IEDs, and mine, in the form of AP devices are of mobile design, and are placed according to threat level and circumstance. My dogs are avoidance trained, to recognize by smell, my particular devices. In addition, I carry at all times, the means of rapidly producing, anti-tracking devices. I use both silent and percussion systems, affording me flexibility, dependant on circumstance. The components are surprisingly compact, and are stowed in a belt pouch no bigger than a leatherman case. Thanks, once again, for your most interesting reply.
there seems to be this assumption that post SHTF life will be a round of fighting and killing and taking on all comers , when in reality your main problem will be boredom and hard physical labour.
TMT Tactical. Sir. From a 747 word post, you draw your conclusion from the final 7 words, which, in its context, is known as "musing". Crudely put, your response might be better described as "Picking pepper out of fly sh1t" A wise man once told me, "Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level, and beat you with experience" None-the-less, thank you for taking cognisance of the line that I have drawn in the sand. What will unfold remains to be seen. I look forward to reading (and commenting on) the future priceless gems, which, I have no doubt, you will bestow upon us.
Hi Lonewolf. Are you from the United Kingdom? If so, could I respectfully ask, what the colloquialism "taking the piss" means?
I seriously doubt I will be losing any sleep. Your post, your words, not me crying about the forum and if I fit. As I stated, give it your best shot, I would enjoy the entertainment. Another wise saying for you, never let YOUR alligator mouth overload your rabbit azz.
Not a bit, I enjoyed the challenge, from the unarmed. Is that the best you got? My 12 year old granddaughter does better. If that is your best, this is going to get real boring real fast.
Different circumstances present different reactions . When in Nam about five of the enemy tried to capture me . I wasn't going to let them take me alive . I had a knife on a girls throat . My plan was to cut her throat and force the remaining enemy to attack me as I attacked them with my knife . After a lot of cussing they backed off and left so I spared the girl . Interestingly this woman had the same M.O. as someone the G.I.'s called the Apachy. She was known to like to take Americans into the jungle and torture them to death , cutting off body parts starting with the genitals . I suspect this may have been an Apachy copy cat . A few days later two soldiers disappeared from the same location and was later found dead , body parts had been cut off .
Hey Poltiregist, I am really glad you posted. I have never spoken with a Vietnam Vet before, and would be truly honoured to chat with you. I have a deep and sincere respect for the Vets who lived that hell. I read as much as I can find on that conflict, and I am pleased to tell you that many of the battles, strategies and outcomes were prescribed study material where I attended combat school. Would it be OK with you if I asked a few general questions from time to time regarding your experiences? Nothing personal, of course, and I ask permission, because I know that some guys don't like to talk about certain events all that much. Quite a few years ago, I researched restoring a "Pibber". I was mightily impressed by the enormous punishment the Hatteras hull could withstand, but sadly, due to availability and logistics issues, the project never materialized. Looking forward to your response.
TMT Tactical. Sir, Please accept my most sincere apologies. I had no idea that you were a Grandfather. My Dad is just as full of "Piss and vinegar" as you are, and my Grandfather is even worse! By this statement, I mean no offence. Here, the Zulu word for Grandfather is "Umkhulu", and in my mother language, "Oupa". Here, we respect our elders, and I will not pursue this matter further.
Thank you, Sir, like a kid in a candy store, I am compiling a list of questions right now!...Holy cow!, I hope I don't sound like a stalker....
I am looking forward to your questions , even questions on a personal level I have no problem with . I am fixing to be on the road in a few minutes so it might be late tonight or tomorrow before I can respond .
Over and done. Being old, I tend to speak my mind without regard to others feeling. I say it as I see it and am willing to debate it. Now that is done, I do have many questions about your life style in S.A.. If I say something that offends, correct me and we will move forward.
As you age I have noted a distinctly thicker skin. Honestly, I think that this is in part because when you look back you realize just how often you were wrong about things and so are not as shocked when someone points out one of your inaccuracies now. The problem is that those that have not reached this stage yet are still shocked that someone tells them when they are full of poop. Some times being wrong is more educational and fun than being right.
