Facing Facts. What Will It Take?

Discussion in 'The Apocalypse' started by Keith H., May 27, 2018.

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  1. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Facing Facts. What will it take?

    I haven’t written a list to work from here, just thoughts as they occur, so I suggest you jot down any of your own thoughts when reading this & use them in your reply to this post. There is bound to be things that I have missed & it is good to get other people’s perspective.

    Okay, let us assume something has gone down & you have to leave your present abode & go bush, what can you expect to have to do to stay as safe as possible under the circumstances. For one you will have to stay alert all the time, even if you are at your retreat or you’re off the grid home, your life will be under threat 24/7! This can be very stressful, but you will not be able to drop your guard unless you are in a secure place & there are others taking their turn on watch.

    If you are on the trail, there will be no lighting of fires, so no warmth from fire & no cooking, no warm food. This means you will have to carry foods that do not require cooking.

    Shelter: You will not be erecting a shelter, come rain or snow you cannot afford to make yourself visible. Tents are an absolute NO, they stand out too much, camo pattern included. So what will you have to do? You will have to roll yourself up in a canvas or oil cloth somewhere hidden by brush, rocks, in a hollow log or a hollow tree or in low ground. Bear in mind that anyone else on the trail will also be looking for likely places to camp so hide yourself well. If there are two or more of you then take turns at keeping watch, but the watch will still have to be reasonable well hidden.

    Don’t zip yourself up in a sleeping bag, you can’t protect yourself stitched up in a bag, & you can’t move fast enough from inside a bag. Pure wool blankets are the best choice. Keep weapons close to hand so they can be used in an instant. You don’t have to wear camo clothing, but you will need to stick to earth colours, no bright coloured clothing!

    When you stop for a break on the trail DO NOT take off your pack! Stay as you are so that you are ready to move or run at a moment’s notice. You may be able to throw yourself into a hidden place, in which case you don’t want your pack left sitting in the open. If you have to run for it, you cannot afford to leave your pack behind, & you will not be able to move as well carrying your pack in your hand as you would if it were on your back.

    Animal trails are the easiest way to travel, but if you are wearing modern footwear you are likely to leave sign. Moccasins can leave sign too, but the print does not show as clearly as the tread on a modern boot & may go unseen by all but a trained tracker. If you are wearing modern boots with a tread, stay off clear ground trails. If you are in a group & crossing open ground, spread out so you do not leave a clear trodden trail.

    If you can follow a water course, this is a good idea. This will mean you have a constant source of drinking water & the chance of trapping or hunting game. Always boil the water if you can, with a no fire rule early on this will not be possible, but there are tablets you can use to purify water.

    Take care when collecting water not to leave any boot prints in the mud or on the bank.

    Toilet: If you were pursued by military with dogs, then your best bet is to defecate in a plastic bag, add a rock, tie the bag well & drop in a river or creek. Other than this choose a place well away from the trail & cover it well. Smell & or buzzing flies are a dead giveaway that someone has defecated close-by!

    Foods: for trail food I suggest a mix of nuts, sunflower seeds, raisins or sultanas & chocolate bits in a bag. This will keep you going on the trail, it is nutritious & tasty & it may be the only comfort you will get for the first few days.

    DO NOT weigh yourself down with modern gadgets that are going to self destruct with time! You have more important things to carry such as medical supplies, ammunition, water & food. It will be quite a while before you can afford to hunt or trap & cook game, you may forage along the way but ONLY along your path, do not stray! So take plenty of dried foods & foods that you can eat without cooking.

    Can anyone add more information or suggestions here?
    Keith.
     
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  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    if we are talking on a personal level then I don't really expect to have to leave here, I am several hundreds miles away from any large city and even if people from the city were to leave that city there are many directions they could go not just this one, I do not subscribe to the "golden horde" theory not in the UK for several reasons.
    most preppers in the UK think I have bugged out already because of my current location.
    I have a list of places, about 6 or 7, I could relocate to should the event ever arise. these locations have been located and scouted by me in advance of any event.
    the trouble with bugging out is that most people would have to leave most of their preps behind as they would only be able to carry a fraction of what they had stockpiled, mostly food, water, weapons, some tools, and a sleeping bag and tarp would probably be the sum total, I have heard of people saying they can carry 50lbs on their backs for 50 miles but that is just bravado talking, we aren't all Rambo's!!:)
     
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  3. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Agreed, we see a lot of lists of equipment etc, but I very much doubt these people even know where on their person they will carry it let alone how. Time to leave is not the time to start thinking about such things. Even Rambo is old now!
    Keith.
     
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  4. Tumbleweed

    Tumbleweed Expert Member
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    We live in a moderate-sized city, and both myself and my husband are not prepared for any serious disaster. Since we live close to what would probably be a strike area if a war happens, we might not even know what hit us if the arsenal were bombed.
    Neither of us is in shape for survival living, in any case; so what we try to do is be prepared for any short-term emergencies that we can survive right here at home.
    I miss living out in the country, and having chickens and livestock; but I also know that I am not physically able to care for them anymore if I did live where I could have them.
    There is not much sense in preparing for something that I know I can’t do; so we just work at being ready for surviving things that we do have a chance at surviving.
     
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  5. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    My mind is wandering a bit, therefore that which follows is not anything to be described as thought-out. There will be gaps of logic. When I first read the title, "What will it take?" I thought they were talking about what will it take to set of a SHTF event. However, it was bug-out gear.

    Back to basics

    Water, shelter, food packaged air-tight/water-tight, heat/fire-building -- such are the things of life for the human species.

    You'll likely not be able to take enough water, so you need water purification. Katadyn makes the best water filters = they are Swiss therefore expensive. Charcoal filters will help get bad tastes out the water. Dump in a pack of powdered drink mix to flavor the water and cover bad tastes.

    Your vehicle can be shelter and you can extend the roof of your vehicle with a tarpaulin. Use the brass eyelets to tie-off to trees. Shape the tarp to run rainwater off to desired location, i.e. not your head. These aluminum "space blankets" come in handy. Spray water-protectant on coats & outdoor wear, boots and such.

    Come up with your own food selection. I can't help you with that.

    Fire-building. There are all manner of fire-starter packs that burn HOT -- even dangerously hot, so be careful with them. Get strike-anywhere matches, or hurricane matches, or primitive spark-throwers and the flammables that go with them. Don't keep liquid fuel in your vehicle -- that's asking for trouble.

    In America, take a rifle. In England, make or buy some sort of sharp pokey-slashy thingy. Other "people" may wish to take what you have. Knuckle-draggers do not deserve life, but here they are among us.

    Tools, I could go on forever, however ... here's a few: knives, short axe, wire saw, small military folding shovel, wrecking bar, rope (the best that you can afford) and cord, pulley for rope (don't use a tree limb as a pulley) ... OK, there's sentence #1. Let me think. Take regular toolbox that you'll already have in your vehicle for normal repair jobs (screwdrivers, hammer, pliers, ...). A hand-wench (sometimes called a "come-along", has lever handle) could come in handy. I keep a small radio-sized air compressor for inflating tires along with a tire-repair kit -- such has bailed me out; I love them; once had the hose tear loose, so be careful with these puppies. Make sure your spare tire is inflated -- and keep a real spare tire; throw it on the roof if you have to. Or, buy run-flat tires -- expensive, the better ones.

    Always keep a wrecking bar, rope, and metal connectors/hooks/pulley in your vehicle. You never know when you will have to extract a person and/or vehicle. May be you yourself.

    Most fire extinguishers are petty ... at best, petty. Here's a funky product: https://www.amazon.com/Extinguisher...5227&sr=8-8&keywords=fire+extinguisher+powder

    There are better fire-suppression powders today than in decades past.

    There's the matter of communications equipment. I will refer you to others concerning this topic. I've got a son to ask.

    Hats are good. Safety helmets better. While working under and around trees, think about this, what if your metal hook flies loose right above you. That "small" limb you see actually weighs 87 pounds.

    Lunchtime
     
  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I have a nylon tarp in camo that is strong water resistant and folds down to almost nothing. The same is true of my hammocks. For warmth and etra shelter use I have a survival blanket that also double as a big poncho. It is fairly light and also super warm and waterproof. I would like to add a wool blanket because they can be worn as a coat or sarape but lord it is heavy when wet!

    A small trenching tool is worth the weight for so many things and in a pinch can be a vicious weapon if the edges are sharpened. Mine can actually be used as a light ax.

    I plastic drop cloth can turn a big pile of leaves into a snug cold weather shelter. Pile your debris then add the plastic sheet then pile limbs on top of that and crawl under and into the warm den. If you do it right in a shallow depression on the side of a hill it is almost impossible to spot.

    I like trail mix made out of parched corn, nuts, raisins, sunflower seeds and M&Ms. I also think that a product called Survival Tabs is worth thinking about. They will give you 400 calories a day and most of the vitamins and mineral you need to keep you going. It is also low mass and doesn't make you use up a lot of water in the digestion. The average person can survive for about 6 months on 400 calories a day. That takes the pressure off of having to find and eat raw foods.

    Have a good water filter and purification tablets. You will also need a good way to carry water.I also carry a straw or some tubing. This will allow you to drink water out of fresh rain puddles without disturbing or muddying the water in a shallow puddle. It would also allow you drink the fresh water off the top of saltwater in coastal areas. Fresh water is lighter than salt water and will make a layer on top of the saltwater in a calm puddle after a rain or in a hole that you dig a little back off the beach that will slowly fill.

    Guns are great but if you use one everybody within a mile knows you are there. You will need a weapon for close in dispatching of animals or foes but you will also want something that allows you to do it with out getting close enough to be injured by a knife. Bows and arrows, Atlatl and darts or a spear make you a lot safer if you have to take someone or something down.

    There are a lot of advantages to learning how to move around at night. It is a SKILL that can be learned. I will probably be a mostly nocturnal mover then lay up and hide during the day. If you will keep the flash lights turned off and not stare at the moon your eyes will adapt to the darkness to a surprising degree. Most people never experience this because we spend our lives now surrounded by lights. Also you "see" at night out of the edges of your sight. Don't look directly at what you want to see. The center of your field of vision is the least sensitive to light since you have spent your life looking right at the well lit things. The edges are much more sensitive and allow you to see things in the edges that you are blind to if you look at it straight on. It has to do with the location of the cones and rods in your retina I believe.

    Get as far into the bush as you can. Think like a rabbit. Find a big hairy briar patch and crawl into it and you won't be found or bothered. The farther you can get from any large gathering of people the better at first for sure. When people get hungry and start to panic you don't want to be anywhere around them. I assure you that within 3 weeks of a fall cannibalism will resurface with a vengeance. It isn't something that people like to consider but it was common on EVERY continent in the past. When people get hungry enough they WILL eat and once they cross this line they become the most dangerous predator there is!
     
  7. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    This post is not really about equipment, it is about making people face the fact that those early days of leaving the city are not going to be a hay ride! No fires, no tents, no shining torches around at night. Comfort is relative, I am comfortable in the bush without a tent or a fire or a hot drink or cooked food. Yes I like these things but they are not a necessity.
    Keith.
     
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  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    when moving about post SHTF I prefer the lay up during the major part of the day, move 1hour before and 1 hour after dawn, the same at dusk, there aren't liable to be many people about at these times, movement during the main part of the day can be easily spotted. any fires need to be smokeless, smoke will give away your location, so no burning damp wood.
     
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  9. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I tend to agree mate, but then again there are a lot of variables. For instance, best time to spot a fire is at night, so if I were on the lookout for people I would be looking at night as well as day. I actually found an escapee this way in West Australia.
    Then again if I want to cover ground fast, 2 hours a day would not get me far enough quick enough. Once I have the distance, I agree, just before light & go to ground before sun up. Move again at sundown until too dark to see. Full moon I could get a lot of distance covered just taking my time.
    If you are in a forest, make your fire near a green tree, the smoke will stick to the tree until it escapes from the canopy. Bury the remains of the fire though before you leave.
    Keith.
     
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  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    sorry mate you misread, its 1 hour before and after dawn and 1 hour before and 1 hour after dusk, so its 4 hours a day in total.
    not that I shall be moving any great distance, I can probably get to any of my prospective bol's within one day as I am already in the remotest location in the county, its just means moving a bit further out, but I agree if one is trying to escape from a big city one would have to get away from the immediate area first and that probably dosent matter if its day or night there are bound to be lots of people about.
    i'd be inclined to get all cooking done before dark, then put the fire out so it cant be seen in the dark.
     
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  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Most of the sheeple will never see this. They are the same people that build on the sides of volcanos or like the fools in New Orleans that live in a hole 12 feet below sea level and were to stupid to leave even when a cat 5 hurricane was bearing down on them.

    The problem is that for millions of years being stupid was a self curing problem for a population. Stupid people got killed by their stupidity and their kids didn't survive childhood. Survival of the fittest is judged by how many of your descendants will populate the future generations. In the past smart people had more successful children and stupid people just didn't measure up in this way.

    Two things have turned this upside down. First off birth control allowed people to decide how many children they wanted and could support. Smart people unfortunately chose to have fewer kids so they could give them all a better life. Stupid people can't or won't control their reproduction. In the past that meant that your kids starved and were unhealthy and prone to disease.

    The second thing that has happened is that we now feed the stupid people, clothe them, put them in good housing and even give them money so they can buy drugs and booze. We more or less encourage them to have as many children as possible by offering them more and more of everything based on how many bastard children that they can pop out. The Fathers are generally "unknown" that way the males don't have to support the children. I call them males because they are not really men. They are just male humanoid primates.

    What this has been doing and is doing is slowly, but with an ever increasing pace, the human race in the more civilized nations is being bred down. Each generation is going to be stupider than the one before until we are no longer viable or we wake up and change some things. As far as I'm concerned if you can't support yourself or the children that you have having more kids is child abuse.

    If you have two kids and want welfare you should be fixed to put a stop to the baby factory. If you want welfare you should be drug tested. If you can't stay off of drugs you will never get a job and get off welfare. Take the kids, place them in loving homes where they can be taught to be more than baby factories and drug sellers or whores and after sterilizing the male and females involved let them go and either get straight, get a job or starve to death.

    If you look at the numbers and correlate the ratio of kids versus the household income what you will find is a totally backwards slope where the more money a family has the fewer kids and the less money the more kids they have. Stupid people really don't care about their kids. The poor kids are born doomed to a life of poverty and mostly ignorance. Stupid people have no use for knowledge past what it takes to get their welfare. Their kids will never be encouraged to work hard in school. There are no books in their house. They will wallow and glory in their ignorance.

    I'm sorry Kieth but the percentage of people that are on the left hand side of the bell curve is a growing number and most of them will never learn and are little more than loose fodder for the next disaster to wipe out. Even the people that are not just totally dumb as a box of rocks are being encouraged in the educational system to not think. I have known people of reasonable intelligence that considered the use of multi syllable words as showing off and dumb. They CHOSE to be ignorant and stupid???

    What we saw in New Orleans when Katrina hit is what you will see everywhere if something disastrous happens. Even if there is a warning it will be ignored. The stupid will sit there and expect someone to come save them if anything really does happen. When the lights go off and things break down the first though of most of the stupid will be to loot and steal. Then they will start to kill each other. No cops means that if you never did like your neighbor this is the time to kill him.

    When the food is gone and the survivors realize that they have to leave they will do so while fighting and killing anyone that has some food that can't defend it. By the time the population of a big city has managed to actually leave the immediate area of the city and gotten maybe 40 or 50 miles out the number will be less than 25% of the original population of the city. People just are no longer able to just head out and walk 50 miles. The people that live over 50 miles from the big city are not going to be very welcoming.

    At that 50 mile mark the refugees that have survived will be in bad shape. Nobody will want them and if they try to force their way in they will be killed easily. A city thug with an assault rifle is no challenge for a country boy with a deer rifle. After a couple of locals get killed strangers carrying guns may be shoot on sight in many areas.

    If you live in a big city you need to have a plan that will let you get out ahead of the masses. Staying in place just isn't an option and trying to go later may be even worse. The only way that I see that you can stay in place in a big city would be to have a big secret underground bunker that you could get into close the door and stay there for at the very least 6 months, better would be a year. The cities are going to burn. Anything above ground will possibly burn or be broke into by starving masses.

    If the disaster were to hit in the dead of winter I'm not sure that most of the people in the Northern cities would be able to survive at all.
     
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  12. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Arrrr, I never was any good at ciphering:(
    Keith.
     
  13. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Another good post Tex.
    Keith.
     
  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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  15. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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  16. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    maybe i'm not so good at explaining my theories.:)
     
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  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    in Britain I think most people have lost the ability to think for themselves, they are so used to having everything provided for them, in some cases "from cradle to grave" as we say over here. if something bad happens its always someone else's fault.
    if you look at a map of the UK its not just a matter of getting out of a big city, although that would be hard enough by itself, but the whole area is so built up that getting out of the area into a more non urban setting would be a monumental task . and how do they decide where to go? north south east west? anyone that is just wandering about hoping to fall across food, water and shelter is not likely to survive for long, even less in the winter months.
     
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  18. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Well room & wilderness is something we have a lot of in Australia, no lack of choices for city people to bug out to if they have a mind. If I was still living in West Sussex in England, I would probably head for Goodwood Forest (if it is still there!!!). I know where there is a hidden underground WW2 bunker in Goodwood Forest, I think I could find it again.
    Keith.
     
  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I think there is a completely different mindset in the UK than to say 50 years ago, 80% of the population are now urban based with urban attitudes, we are 4 generations on average removed from the land. most people don't know where there food comes from, how its produced or even in some cases which animal it comes from.
     
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  20. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    post SHTF life will be very different to how it is now.
    it will be : part self sufficiency/part self reliance/ part subsistence food producing, and a lot of hard work.
    there will be NO outside help, NO state aid or welfare checks.
    if you cant make it, if you cant grow it, if you cant scavenge it, you wont have it.
     
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  21. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    appears those on here have accessed their situation and formed their response plan . Everyone has to respond to the mind set of the people around them , a few may not have many people to deal with while others have panicked starving masses to deal with .looks like some will likely catch hell , while some are in a reverently secure position . there is no one size fits all plan , but at least all seem to have a plan .
     
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  22. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Wait a minute here Lonewolf.....

    You are talking about a "professional victim " class of people accustomed to the blame game to get through life???

    Never taking responsibility for themselves!!! It is always someone else's fault. Therefore someone else gets to take the risk and responsibility ..by default. I deserve it the others don't!!

    This sounds familiar somehow!!!


    Yes indeed....how do they decide which way to go based on a television and or movie education ...or a Rock and Roll music education...MTV. A life in the fast food lane.



    I worry about this too...beginning with at work....in addition to the preps I have made here.

    I have foodstuffs stored in lockers at work. I consume it on occasion to rotate it out. Only a handful know of them. Sterno stoves too.

    I have theorized that were I stuck at work.....for about a week.SHTF or TEOTWAWKI..the first thing to go would be the vending machines...broken and looted quickly if needed. Then as Texdanm aptly states....looking to someone else who cannot defend their food or persons. It would be the same on the streets.

    I have also theorized what would happen should I have to walk the 8 or so miles home...through two legged wildlife...as well as what would be left should I get there.

    It might be just as dangerous in a four wheeled vehicle as on my two wheeled scooter...and so too with walking home.
    The only advantage of my car or truck ..is that I am armed in it...versus the two wheeled scooter.
    My car or truck I park in a private lot...not a company lot.

    Most people have food only for that one day they are at work. They never think any further...unless it is television or sports.

    I have managed to obtain, maintain, and position four lockers in this shipyard... having scavenged them from Navy ships when they throw them away...and position them in certain discrete places. So too short distance comms...UHF/VHF radios/walkie talkies...with spare batteries..short wave set with AM/FM and a roll up antenna for short wave frequencies pre positioned and concealable....should I be forced by circumstance to stay there about a week.
    I have six AA batteries in my pocket daily ...for this radio as well as my Mag Lite which I also carry with me daily ...unless I have to wear a suit and tie...at which time I feel naked without my folding knife and Mag Lite.
    I hate wearing suits.

    My shortwave set at work is a Tecsun 660 kept in one of the four lockers in a extra heavy duty plastic bag with spare batteries. Nuclear grade plastic bags are extra heavy duty. Just don't use the Yellow ones ...yellow meaning radiated and or contaminated material..which will raise red flags among those who know for what to look..and what yellow bags mean in that environment.
    I also have another Tecsun 660 short wave set right here next to me at this computer terminal....next to three 40 packs of AA batteries.

    Also at work is a radiation counter...though there are counters aplenty in the building out of which I work. This one I own myself and will carry with me should it become necessary when going or walking home. I have another too right next to the Tecsun 660 radio here adjacent to this computer terminal...and the 40 packs of AA batteries.

    Several Changes of socks, BVD.s, Pocked T shirts too. Also this antiseptic or is it anti bacterial alcohol hand cleaner...should water become scarce or one needed to clean from a position of concealment. Baby Wipes too.
    Or we can use Baby diapers to clean which are often stored in the shop and used for extra clean work in nuclear operations/applications. I keep several baby diapers carefully folded in my lockers at work for such extra uses.

    Changes of socks, and eventually underclothing came about because of getting severely wet and cold in Dry Docks over the years. It seemed common sense to have at least a partial change of clothes as a back up...pre positioned.

    Sloshing around in cold wet feet can be miserable...mentally as well as physically.

    A decision to bug out or head home may become based on information one can gather. I would not absolutely be want to depend on cell phones though I have one with spare batteries..an olde flip phone.

    I would be want to take my UHF/VHF walkie talkie and go to the roof of the building out of which I work to get altitude and extra range for the rubber ducky antenna and hear from other hams what is going on out there and compare to what can be picked up via my short wave AM/FM radio. The roof of this building is some 85 feet or so up in the air so this works out well for VHF/UHF communications.

    I can pick up long wave hams on this Tecsun 660 including my friend some 400 miles away in Tennessee using my concealed roll up short wave antenna. Also the CB radio bands.
    I spoke to my friend on my ham radio base station twice from here at home this weekend with 100% copy. Our system is working out well..though at first I had reservations about it.


    Nonetheless.....I have thought some of this through whether at work or here at this location.

    But.....only time and events will tell.

    I just don't want to depend on others if SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happened while I am at work. At home too..for that matter..and up to a certain point.

    I just know too many people who only think about that one day ...or tonight's television program or sports extravaganza...anything but SHTF or TEOTWAWKI.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    wife's cousin, a councillor for a large town in the next county East, when I try to talk to him about SHTF, well he is family-sort of, his reply is always" it'll never happen so lets not talk about it!" so we don't!:D
    he's an intelligent guy, was a teacher for many years, has been mayor of the town several times, so he's not stupid, yet he wont discuss SHTF not even just in theory never mind actually prepping.
    there are a lot more people like that in this country than there are preppers.
     
  24. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    it has been my observation that most people prefer to live in denial , rather than prepare . I consider this a gross neglect of responsibility if someone else is depending on them for survival . on the other hand reading some of the survival plans , makes me conclude some do not plan to help family members but only concentrate on themselves.
     
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  25. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I find that of which you narrate here Lonewolf to be astonishing considering the history of the UK...through WW1 and WW2.

    The history of which I am familiar is that the UK was within a week or two of losing all food imports...not in WW2 ..but WW1 due to the submarine warfare going on.

    Now reading that version of history caught me short...as I had always assumed it was WW2 in which things became so desperate...via submarine warfare.

    But it was not only submarine warfare going on ..but aerial bombardment in big cities. Even some of this bombardment took place in WW1 in the bigger cities...Zeppelins...if I recall the history.

    It just seems to me that the British people should be well and more aware how thin the veneer of civilization can be verses us Americans who have for so long lived in security and plenty..to the point of taking it foolishly for granted.


    If for no other reason...Americans should be thinking about this kind of thing because of he natural disasters which often take place here...Hurricanes and Tornados....floods...etc. The landscape becomes the appearance of a war zone.
    But many Americans do not think this way as Texdanm states. They would rather worship the gods of the television set and or sports events....so to speak.

    And when SHTF happens....look to someone else to make up the difference...or go a looting.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Watcherchris
     
  26. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    One needs to be selective even about ones family members...particularly if they are high speed and low drag...fast food lane people.


    Years ago I moved my own brother into my home because he couldn't seem to make it on his own.
    I made the mistake of thinking I was being a caring and loving brother.

    Soon enough I did not have any alcohol at home as he had consumed most of it.

    He seldom bought food or even toilet tissue...but consumed generous quantities of both.

    But the kicker was that he had no problem getting pot/marijuana.
    He was one of those socially skilled people who could go to a party and know no one...and soon know where to get Pot.

    One day ...a knock on the front door revealed a nice looking blond female asking for my brother. He was not home and as I began to close the door...she announced that she made a deal with my brother for some of his Insulin syringes for something called....a Lude.

    I had no idea what a was a lude...and decided to give her a couple of his needles to see as to what my brother was doing. She gave me a pink pill wrapped up in foil with an R stamped on it. I flushed it down the toilet.

    It was only after talking to someone more versed in drugs that I found out Lude was a street name for something called Quaalude.

    Even then I did not fully catch on ...thinking I was still doing the proper thing in loving and caring for my brother.

    This female came back again looking for my brother some two months later. She looked like she had been dragged behind her truck for those two months....gastly pale.

    She told me they were shooting coke with the needles she got from my brother.

    The final straw was when he began growing Marijuana plants on my property.



    I told him to move out.

    I have a security clearance. It would not do for him to get busted at my home and me lose my clearance and or job...then he and myself...both of us would be out on the street.

    This type of person in my family we call....." A good time Charlie. "
    They know to go where the goods are to be found plentiful....for good times....fun times...while others take the risks out of life for them....flashdance them through lifes difficulties. They are good to go in fun times but not useful when hard and difficult times come along. Being bored to these people is a definition of death itself.

    Now all this happened in relatively good times...

    I would not want alcoholics in my group and alcohol is legal....even alcoholic family members.


    Would you want people like this with you or your group in SHTF or TEOTWAWKI???? Giving away to others for good times ..easy times...what the conditions was of your plans and or caches??? Giving away your OPSEC??

    Be selective...even among family members.

    These people..even family members can be Ishmaelites....willing to put you in danger...in bondage/risk for their next good and easy time..fun time. Sad to say ..but this is what happened to me. It woke me up.

    My brother was so dumb...he moved to Hawaii...using someone else's frequent flyer miles....where costs are very high..but he thought he was going to live in Paradise.

    When the good times ran out..he moved to Florida....Hurricane alley.

    But.....that is his time and his monies....now his responsibility.

    He is still my brother and I worry about him...sometimes send him money ..but I don't want him living with me again...in particular in SHTF or TEOTWAWKI....because I know he is an Ishmaelite.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  27. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    most if not all the "Blitz" generation in the UK are all gone now, we have a different population with different attitudes, mostly of the hand out or hand up, or panic, variety.
    the modern 21st century population is totally clueless about even the need for preparedness much less actually doing it, the assumption is always that nothing will go wrong and if it does its someone else's job to provide, usually the government or state, even the concept of self reliance is hidden somewhere in past history.
     
  28. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    some of the survival plans laid out , I do not have to speculate , I have already employed as a war vet . now I am looking to a different scenario . I am not looking for any help in my prepping from anyone . Have prepped to the point that all of my kids and grandkids , and I could survive without any outside resources for years . I am hunkered down on an isolated dirt dead end road . about the only way I would consider abandoning my retreat would be getting burned out . some of you guys plans would probably work short term , but not for years .
     
  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the longer term is something that most preppers in my country don't want to talk about, there seems to be a lot of people who prepare for short term events and then it returns to normal, but what if it never does? or maybe they consider this too horrible to contemplate.
    I have heard many people say" if it gets that bad I don't want to survive", fine by me, I do want to survive whatever the event may be, I have never bothered worrying about what the event may be, some do and only prepare for certain events and not others, I prepare for what comes after.
    given the apathy and normalcy bias amongst the general public the mortality rate would probably be very high.
     
    Keith H. likes this.
  30. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    There is an Englishman named Theadore Dalrymple

    I read his book years ago titled..."Life at the bottom" wherein he describes in more detail what you are stating Lonewolf about conditions in the UK Welfare state.

    This is also the danger of what is happening here in America and in particular in the bigger cities. I believe it is by design.


    This article mentioning Theadore Dalrymple was posted today and I found it interesting though brief.


    https://www.prisonplanet.com/britain-is-debased-dishonoured-and-debauched-and-brexit-is-no-cure.html


    My view and limited understanding is that the UK does not need to be bled dry or held to their detriment to support the rest of the world....or even a huge welfare state.


    And in like manner neither does America.

    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Watcherchris
     
  31. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    My situation is the same.
    Keith.
     
  32. reynolds

    reynolds New Member
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    Plenty will just take it from others, believe that much!
     
  33. reynolds

    reynolds New Member
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    Tierra likes this.
  34. reynolds

    reynolds New Member
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    the main fact you need to face, in the UK, is that those with illegal rifles, especially a .22lr autoloaders are going to do whatever they want, for many months after shtf, at the very least.
     
  35. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I have had plenty of experience with zippers reynolds, obviously you have never seen anyone trapped in a sleeping bag! I don't pin my blanket. A wool blanket if wet will keep you a lot warmer than a wet sleeping bag.
    Keith.
     
  36. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Where I'm from, people who post-SHTF who decide to take what they want are going to go ambient temperature rather early in their efforts. And with just a .22 LR -- wow, what an epic fail!
     
    1. reynolds
      where you live must not be the UK, cause in the UK, nobody's got more than a double barreled shotgun and a .22lr auto beats such a gun all to hell.
       
      reynolds, Oct 19, 2018
  37. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    they will try! without imports all food supplies are finite, in the UK we have no public food stockpile's, what is in the stores-3 days worth of normal sales maximum, and in the distribution depot's, is all there is, once that's gone-its gone for good.
    even stealing other peoples food from their houses-which wont be much about 3 or 4 days worth, dosent matter how they "ration" it , its finite.
    about 1 week will see all the food stocks both retail and household all used up.
    3 weeks later the big die off starts.(3 days without water).
    so its the first month that will be the danger point and will be the "hunker down" period.
    once the whole thing goes "tits up" it will be surprising how quickly the entire system will collapse.
     
    Tierra likes this.
  38. reynolds

    reynolds New Member
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    The ones with brains wont' bother with houses, mate. They will hit warehouses and granaries, farmer's feed stores, barges on the rivers, etc. Score tons of grain, bury it in drums , be ok food-wise for many, many months. You think small and that wont work in a real crisis.
     
    Tierra likes this.
  39. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Here in the USA, near urban areas, food jobber warehouses -- not retail or whole-sale, jobber -- will be crawling with uniforms post-haste. They are pre-planned targets for government take-over. And guess what, our military is chocked full of healthy younger people who eat a lot of food.

    To attempt to keep the looting down in urban areas, FEMA will attempt to keep the grub going.

    They will attempt to keep the clean water flowing.

    Me, I'm not counting on it. I live where mountain streams are plentiful, plus keep water filtering and purification devices for my own family's use. And have a garden. And have canned food. And there's the dried beans ... and rice ...

    State forestry land holdings in this particular state alone equal 300 square km. and over 7,000 sq.km of federal forests are currently being managed. Government open land, I have no idea how much there exists. Farmland covers most of the state, with some cities scattered hither-thither. My home state holds at least this much forested and open land. There are rivers and lakes everywhere here in Southern Appalachia.

    The land is there, however you gotta know how to live on it. You gotta know how to get along with the people -- they are armed to the teeth.

    Is one safe here? Well, that has a lot to do about what you know and who you know, now doesn't it!
     
    Tierra likes this.
  40. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    a lot of the pillaging assumptions are based on people being able to get around in a motorized vehicle . That's possible but also possible in case of an E.M.P. that vehicles will not crank and run , therefore they couldn't pillage no father than they could walk , could take only what they could carry . Just trying to look at this at all possible possibilities .
     
  41. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    My kit contains several light green nets with a 25mm mesh, this can be erected and covered with leaves sticks etc.
    Not waterproof but rain is seldom around here. A multitude of uses and weighs practicaly nothing
    My entrenching tool is one of my most valuable tools.
     
  42. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    And most will die for doing that too. Without the cops to protect them they will be killed like the rabid dogs that they are. Most crime, at least in the US, is the result of the same people doing it over and over with short visits to the prison. When they get killed there is no further problem with them.

    The original question was "Facing facts, What will it take?" The short answer is they will realize that they messed up shortly before they begin to DIE.
     
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  43. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    maybe they will maybe they wont, remember these are city people with little knowledge of how to process food or even how to cook it without power or a microwave, grain stores are just that stores for grain- how will they process it into food without tools or knowledge.
    barges on rivers, all the barges are now holiday homes.
    farmers feed stores? any farmers stores over here carry tools, screws and nails, clothing, no food. now farm shops-where they sell food is a different matter.
     
  44. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    in any situation, filling stations will be empty within 24 hours, we had a fuel protest in this country back along that proved that, and that was without a major event just a refinery blockade.
    everyone will be walking post event and just how far will they get? not far, remember in my country the average person dosent walk any more than 200 yards from their vehicles, they dont walk when they can drive, we also have an obesity crisis in this country. people are actually prescribed exercise as a cure!!! duh! you couldn't make it up.
     
  45. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    in case someone on here doesn't know . In 1962 the U.S. conducted an E.M.P. test dubbed ' Starfish Prime ' a 1.4 megaton warhead was detonated 240 miles up from earth . This caused significant damage over 800 miles from ground zero. This is 1,600 mile diameter . they have much more powerful bombs now . Even if you figured in a 1,6oo diameter , how many would it take to cover the country in which you live ? Assuming people will have a running vehicle is being optimistic . as Lonewolf said even if the vehicle did run , for most people they would soon be out of fuel .
     
  46. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Very few people understand how intricate and delicate our infrastructure is and how dependent we are on it. When the USSR broke up it threw them into a total economic collapse. Their way of doing things in the past were based on a central government that controlled everything and demanded unthinking obedience. Their sudden freedom at first mostly meant that you were free to nearly starve to death.

    In the past when it came time to harvest the government just pulled people out of whatever they normally did and sent them to the fields. After the fall of the communist government the crops rotted in the fields. They had always had a hard time feeding their people. Running everything from the top down is massively inefficient. They seldom managed to get even half of the potential harvest to the people as food.

    The USA and a lot of the European countries sent people over there to help them learn how to get things done without threatening people to get them to work. I had a friend that went there and was a part of this effort. He told me that they didn't have anything that was just done. In the past everything was done when ordered and not before.

    In order to feed the people a lot of things have to happen in a VERY specific order and at very specific times. The fields have to be prepared and then planted at the right time. This means that someone has to do it and the seed has to arrive on time. Everyone can't plant at the same time because if they do it all needs to be harvested at the same time and that just can't happen. That first few years a lot of their crops rotted in the fields and some were planted late and didn't grow well. One reason that you can't harvest everywhere at the same time is that you have to store and process grain and there are not enough plants to do it all at the same time so more of it was wasted. After it is processed it needs to go to the mills and there is another log jam at that point and more is lost. The ground flour now has to be turned into breads and that has to be delivered before it rots and MORE was lost at this stage.

    What was learned is that an infrastructure is more like an organic thing than a mechanical thing and has to be GROWN from the bottom up rather than made and implemented all at once. If our infrastructure goes down we will be in the same place that they were in and it won't just miraculously come back. The stores and gas stations are massively dependent on DAILY deliveries. I have seen in the aftermath of hurricanes how fast the stores go empty and the gas stations run dry. You are talking days at the most and HOURS at the smaller local level. Two days after Rita hit us there was no gas to be had and the stores were BARE. You couldn't buy a bottle of water anywhere. The stores closed the gas stations closed the restaurants, even the ones with power, closed and were out of food.

    It took almost a month for things to get back to normal. This was with the help from the rest of the country helping us. There won't be ANY help if the disaster is on a national level! In a matter of days we will be back to a hand to mouth lifestyle and transportation will be walking. At least where I live there are a lot of horses. I probably have several thousand in the county I live in and many thousand cattle. People in the big urban areas will just be WITHOUT.
     
  47. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    yeah....Texdanm....but how about those Kardashians????!!!

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  48. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    seems the ones on here that understand the gravity of a potential apocalyptic situation are the older generation . They have already experienced disasters natural or man made , but also realize the potential for a far worse situation is a reality . The younger generation may know there is a potential apocalyptic situation but in their youthful optimistic outlook don't fully grasp the potential threat . One of the reasons militaries like young soldiers , the young are prone to think bad things will only happen to the other guy .
     
    lonewolf likes this.
  49. poltiregist

    poltiregist Active Member
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    another somber thought , a few years ago my daughter whom is in the medical field , was invited to attend a government sponsored meeting about a potential global epidemic . This meeting was held on a offshore island . If the government sees this as a viable threat , so should any civilian .
     
    Ystranc likes this.
  50. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Part of the problem today, especially in the US, is a generational perspective. I'm 65 now. My Dad and most of the men that I admired and respected when I was young were all veterans in WW2. I was a grown man before I had any realistic assurance that I wasn't going to have to go to war myself. We were at war for my entire childhood. Korea and Vietnam were an every day thing plus the cold war with the threat of a nuclear exchange was always there. I REMEMBER the Cuban Missile crisis and as a kid being told to go into the hall get on my knees and kiss my butt good bye in school when we had atomic bomb drills.

    I know that we are still spending a lot of time at war all over the Middle East but the difference is that no young people are FORCED to go there because we have no draft now. The draft and watching familly, friends and the big brothers of friends shipped off to fight for other peoples freedom that wouldn't fight for it themselves never allowed me to feel totally untouchable when so many of them came home in a box or in pieces.

    My heroes didn't play with balls, not did they chant and call it music. My heroes were men that fought so that I could live free and safe. We played at war constantly because fighting was always a possible future for us. We played Cowboys and Indians, war, cops and robbers...hell we were a violent bunch of little monsters! I had toy guns from the time I was a toddler on until I was old enough for a real gun. LOL, I still have my favorite cap pistol in my gun cabinet and a little toy double barrel shotgun that shot corks on my gun rack.

    For my generation fighting in a military sense was a game we were encouraged to play. It was a reality for us that we all KNEW might be a reality in our future. We didn't have a real choice about facing the facts of our existence. The kids that followed us lived a pie in the sky existence compared to us. They felt untouchable and the thought of being forced to go to war was just never a part of their life. Kids now are forbidden to play with toy guns or act out the war games we played. Hell if they bite a pop tart out into the L shape of s gun at school and play with it they can get expelled. (This REALLY happened!!!) They can even get expelled for pointing with their fingers in a gun like manner!

    If you raise a child in this pacifist way in a world that is constantly at war how can you expect anyone to even know what reality IS???
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018

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