Grid Down/nuclear Winter

Discussion in 'What do you believe? Predictions?' started by EarlyMarksman, Oct 12, 2019.

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  1. EarlyMarksman

    EarlyMarksman Expert Member
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    I believe that we are most likely to endure a grid down scenario. Essentially, all power is cut off due to an EMP, solar flare, geomagnetic storms, and the like. It's debated whether cars will even function or not in this type of situation.
    There's also the possibility of nuclear war which would first begin with fallout and then end in a long-term nuclear winter. Same as a grid down scenario except....well....it's freezing nonstop.
    We already know about the Carrington Event of 1859 when a solar flare blacked out telegram communications throughout North America. Of course, since technology wasn't very advanced and America was still heavily agrarian mostly in the south, it didn't effect the people in that time as drastically as it would us today. The entire power grid would be detroyed.
    Cell phones would work for about 4 hours after a solar flare due to backup generators, but after that time they would also be rendered useless. Television stations would shut down, supermarkets, gas stations, and other resources for food and water would shut down, and then within 24 hours the riots would begin. Looting, vandalism, protesting, home invasions and everything bad.
     
  2. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    That pretty much covers it.
     
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  3. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    I don't think it will be a very big deal for those who have taken that seriously, and moved someplace fairly safe, and are well prepared to ride out three to five years of challenging times.

    Just so you know there are members of this forum that have been prepping for exactly that for more then (55) fifty-five years.

    The Earth has a "Stage Four Cancer" about three to five "BILLION" or slightly more to many humans on it's outer skin. So roughly three or four billion humans need to be culled. And given that the stage four cancer is the most disgusting and deeply embedded in the Mega'Cities and Suburban areas with the highest concentration of human cancer thingies, reasonable to expect the most cleansing in those areas.

    It is important to remember........."It is not personal". And thousands of years in the future the Earth will be cured, and decedents of some current humans will enjoy the Earths bounty.

    The question is what exactly are you willing to do the mitigate the high probability of you and/or most of those you love being fertilizer to replenish the skin of the Earth.....???
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Oh what grim delight
    Vicissitudes rest upon the would-be aggressor
    Reminders of things past unstudied.
    What dance seems appropriate to the hour?

    In horror delight
    What fever has betaken these people of the Earth?
    To whom do you speak
    Oh those unknown to their Creator?

    And here am I
    Jester in the gallery
    Follies the order of my delight
    Screams the source of dark delight.

    Find a true candle to
    Reveal tears of abandonment
    In crazed mirrors brought forth
    Of the Fates' dark humour.

    And Satan squeals
    Convulsing in laughter
    Upon the floor
    Of what paradise afforded him.

    Dark, dark night
    Garden of delight
    God doth smite
    Black roses of hideous might.

     
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  5. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  6. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Early Marksman,

    A "grid down" scenario does not affect some of the individual grid squares that are "hardened" and self-sufficient. What we call "critical infrastructure" can handle overall disruptions. Critical infrastructure is not just military but other aspects such as public safety facilities, fire and rescue, emergency management and the national and state cache inventories.

    True, cars won't work. Even if cell phones could technically work...I doubt it... electronic communications networks are reserved for "COG": Continuity of Government. A private-citizen prepper will know the basics of semaphore flags, flash light signals to neighbors, a small signaling mirror does wonders for preppers.

    Can't address nuc warfare; it will surely be more than just nuclear. Still, it doesn't matter. Some of us will be participating in "COG" - Continuity of Government - in some ways eg Citizens Corps, SAR teams, auxiliary support teams. Other preppers will be surviving any war - and - realistically enough, as per history, thriving as much as the environment allows.

    ...

    Old Geezer;

    Nice picture. For the record, in olden times I used to date Roger Rabbit's wife. Fond memories ... and even these are fading from my forgetful mind. Back to the semaphore flags ...... am guessing some of the younger forum members are not familiar.
     
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  7. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    Early marksman you and I are in agreement on this issue . This topic concerns government agencies around the globe and should concern any civilian . The fact that some are quick to deny or diminish the seriousness of this topic in my eyes shows how unprepared many are . Denying is easier than preparing . In a E.M.P. scenario we are talking about being prepared for years . Many folks prep for only minor events so are only prepped for a few days or weeks . ----Pure speculation , in the event of a global winter , if some group or individual can survive in place much longer than most , that would mean migrating to a more survivable location on the planet would be more feasible , The fall back of that though would be communication link to know where may be more survivable . If someone was siting in a honey hole , it would be questionable if they would want to share their turf and broadcast it out .
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  8. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The result of an Emp that just takes down the grid but leaves the cars running will be totally different from one that takes down everything that is dependent on computer controllers which would take almost all the cars down as well.

    Depending on where you live, a total wipe where even the cars go down will be better or worse. If you live in a major urban area it will be a lot worse because your ability to evacuate to a better place will be almost wiped out. I can't imagine the hell that it would be trying to walk out of the inner city part of Houston for example. It would be you and a million other people with fighting almost every step of the way. There would be no possibility of you finding much of anything to eat with that many people scrounging for every bite of food.

    On the other hand, if you do not live in or very near to a big urban area you will be a lot better off. Without the influx of a number of refugees that exceeds the number of residents that you have in that area. This will make the locally available resources last a lot longer. It will also mean that most of the thugs and gangbangers will die in the cities instead of visiting their violence out into the rural areas.

    If the cars go down the cities will burn. With no water, no power, no sewage treatment, and no cops or fire department, the riots and fires are inevitable. If you are trapped in a big city your best bet might be to move into areas that are less crowded inside the city rather than trying to get out immediately. Most big cities in Texas have a lot of big parks and a sort of mini forests. If you live in apartments or places where the houses are shoulder to shoulder you need to consider relocating.

    The thing about EMP/coronal Mass ejection is that for all practical purposes there is no warning. The lights will just go out and you won't know that they are not going to come back on, maybe never. What you need to do if you are in a city is immediantly try several battery powered radios and if none of them will work or pick up anything then you need to get on the move immediatly. If the cars are working you want to be out of town before the rush starts and the roads lock up. If you are going to have to walk out you need to get at least away from the poorer parts of town before the riots and fires start.
     
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  9. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    For sake of discussion , let's presume the U.S. military has E.M.P. hardened equipment . How long can the military function without civilian support to grow food ? There is the underground facility in Springfield Missouri . I have watched trucks disappearing down that hole and was told they were storing food . The military has a lot of personal and would consume a lot of food . An then there is the transportation of food , equipment and personal . If trucks could be gotten up and running there is the matter of a fuel supply availability . I am just throwing some questions out that I don't have the answer for .
     
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  10. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    That is Exactly what I crave in a "Prepping for Survival" forum. Keep them coming.
     
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  11. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    How many nuclear plants are in the US? Anyone remember what happened to the Fukushima plant when the power went out? Once it lost power there was no way to cool the reactors. Who is to say any backup generators would run after an EMP? How many transistors and microchips are in them today?

    July 9 1962
    Starfish Prime
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

    Starfish Prime was a July 9, 1962, high-altitude nuclear test conducted by the United States, a joint effort of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the Defense Atomic Support Agency. It was launched from Johnston Atoll and was the largest nuclear test conducted in outer space and one of five conducted by the US in space.

    A Thor rocket carrying a W49 thermonuclear warhead (designed by Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory) and a Mk. 2 reentry vehicle was launched from Johnston Atoll in the Pacific Ocean, about 900 miles (1,450 km) west-southwest of Hawaii. The explosion took place at an altitude of 250 miles (400 km), above a point 19 miles (31 km) southwest of Johnston Atoll. It produced a yield equivalent to 1.4 megatonnes of TNT. The explosion was about 10° above the horizon as seen from Hawaii, at 11 PM Hawaii time.[1]

    Explosion
    cd460ee92875350c865a8c7399817118.jpeg
    Another view of Starfish Prime through thin cloud, as seen from Honolulu
    On July 9, 1962, at 09:00:09 Coordinated Universal Time (11:00:09 p.m. on July 8, Honolulu time), the Starfish Prime test was detonated at an altitude of 250 miles (400 km). The coordinates of the detonation were 16°28′N 169°38′WCoordinates: View attachment 3624 16°28′N 169°38′W.[1] The actual weapon yield came very close to the design yield, which various sources have set at different values in the range of 1.4 to 1.45 megatons (6.0 PJ). The nuclear warhead detonated 13 minutes 41 seconds after liftoff of the Thor missile from Johnston Atoll.[5]

    Starfish Prime caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) that was far larger than expected, so much larger that it drove much of the instrumentation off scale, causing great difficulty in getting accurate measurements. The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 898 miles (1,445 km) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights,[6] setting off numerous burglar alarms, and damaging a telephone company microwave link.[7] The EMP damage to the microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands.[8]

    A total of 27 small rockets were launched from Johnston Atoll to obtain experimental data from the Starfish Prime detonation. In addition, a large number of rocket-borne instruments were launched from Barking Sands, Kauai, in the Hawaiian Islands.[9]

    A large number of United States military ships and aircraft were operating in support of Starfish Prime in the Johnston Atoll area and across the nearby North Pacific region.

    A few military ships and aircraft were also positioned in the region of the South Pacific Ocean near the Samoan Islands. This location was at the southern end of the magnetic field line of the Earth's magnetic field from the position of the nuclear detonation, an area known as the "southern conjugate region" for the test. An uninvited scientific expeditionary ship from the Soviet Union was stationed near Johnston Atoll for the test, and another Soviet scientific expeditionary ship was in the southern conjugate region near the Samoan Islands.[10]

    After the Starfish Prime detonation, bright auroras were observed in the detonation area, as well as in the southern conjugate region on the other side of the equator from the detonation. According to one of the first technical reports:[9]

    The visible phenomena due to the burst were widespread and quite intense; a very large area of the Pacific was illuminated by the auroral phenomena, from far south of the south magnetic conjugate area (Tongatapu) through the burst area to far north of the north conjugate area (French Frigate Shoals)... At twilight after the burst, resonant scattering of light from lithium and other debris was observed at Johnston and French Frigate Shoals for many days confirming the long time presence of debris in the atmosphere. An interesting side effect was that the Royal New Zealand Air Force was aided in anti-submarine maneuvers by the light from the bomb.

    These auroral effects were partially anticipated by Nicholas Christofilos, a scientist who had earlier worked on the Operation Argus high-altitude nuclear shots.

    According to U.S. atomic veteran Cecil R. Coale,[11] some hotels in Hawaii offered "rainbow bomb" parties on their roofs for Starfish Prime, contradicting some reports that the artificial aurora was unexpected.

    "A 'Quick Look' at the Technical Results of Starfish Prime" (August 1962) states:[9]
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    At Kwajalein, 1,400 [nautical] miles [2,600 km; 1,600 mi] to the west, a dense overcast extended the length of the eastern horizon to a height of 5 or 8 degrees. At 0900 GMT a brilliant white flash burned through the clouds rapidly changing to an expanding green ball of irradiance extending into the clear sky above the overcast. From its surface extruded great white fingers, resembling cirro-stratus clouds, which rose to 40 degrees above the horizon in sweeping arcs turning downward toward the poles and disappearing in seconds to be replaced by spectacular concentric cirrus like rings moving out from the blast at tremendous initial velocity, finally stopping when the outermost ring was 50 degrees overhead. They did not disappear but persisted in a state of frozen stillness. All this occurred, I would judge, within 45 seconds. As the purplish light turned to magenta and began to fade at the point of burst, a bright red glow began to develop on the horizon at a direction 50 degrees north of east and simultaneously 50 degrees south of east expanding inward and upward until the whole eastern sky was a dull burning red semicircle 100 degrees north to south and halfway to the zenith obliterating some of the lesser stars. This condition, interspersed with tremendous white rainbows, persisted no less than ninety minutes.

    At zero time at Johnston, a white flash occurred, but as soon as one could remove his goggles, no intense light was present. A second after shot time a mottled red disc was observed directly overhead and covered the sky down to about 45 degrees from the zenith. Generally, the red mottled region was more intense on the eastern portions. Along the magnetic north-south line through the burst, a white-yellow streak extended and grew to the north from near zenith. The width of the white streaked region grew from a few degrees at a few seconds to about 5–10 degrees in 30 seconds. Growth of the auroral region to the north was by addition of new lines developing from west to east. The white-yellow auroral streamers receded upward from the horizon to the north and grew to the south and at about 2 minutes the white-yellow bands were still about 10 degrees wide and extended mainly from near zenith to the south. By about two minutes, the red disc region had completed disappearance in the west and was rapidly fading on the eastern portion of the overhead disc. At 400 seconds essentially all major visible phenomena had disappeared except for possibly some faint red glow along the north-south line and on the horizon to the north. No sounds were heard at Johnston Atoll that could be definitely attributed to the detonation.

    Strong electromagnetic signals were observed from the burst, as were significant magnetic field disturbances and earth currents.

    After effects
    While some of the energetic beta particles followed the Earth's magnetic field and illuminated the sky, other high-energy electrons became trapped and formed radiation belts around the Earth. There was much uncertainty and debate[by whom?] about the composition, magnitude and potential adverse effects from this trapped radiation after the detonation. The weaponeers became quite worried when three satellites in low Earth orbit were disabled. These included TRAAC and Transit 4B.[13] The half-life of the energetic electrons was only a few days. At the time it was not known that solar and cosmic particle fluxes varied by a factor of 10, and energies could exceed 1 MeV. In the months that followed these man-made radiation belts eventually caused six or more satellites to fail,[14] as radiation damaged their solar arrays or electronics, including the first commercial relay communication satellite, Telstar, as well as the United Kingdom's first satellite, Ariel 1.[15] Detectors on Telstar, TRAAC, Injun, and Ariel 1 were used to measure distribution of the radiation produced by the tests.[16]

    In 1963, it was reported that Starfish Prime had created a belt of MeV electrons.[17] In 1968, it was reported that some Starfish electrons had remained for 5 years.[18]
     
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  13. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    You said much, if not all, in para 2's "Depending on where you live,". This relates to EMP closing down everything dependent on computer controllers".

    Here in the politico-military Atlantic corridor, Elizabeth City, North Carolina to Ft Meade, Maryland, much is "hardened" and self-sustaining including staff members. There are key people present 24/7.

    In practical terms, private citizen emergency evacuations cannot be successful. Our current infrastructure and support systems are still just too weak.
     
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  14. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    Given the number of nuclear weapons around the world today I do not see any way the Average Joe citizen will survive a nuclear winter. Some people will survive; those that are part of the Continuation of Government; a few stragglers here and there who can hide out in caves. There are three major questions to which I have not been able find answers.

    First, the sheer magnitude of weapons that would be launched has never been studied, and those numbers have not been calculated. The Carl Sagan paper done in the 80's calculated 100 weapons being detonated. Estimates today of the number of weapons available is in the 15,000 range. These weapons are also exponentially larger than anything that has been tested. Starfish was 1.4-1.5 megatons. That would be a suitcase bomb today. Does anybody even have anything that small? It seems like they start at 10 and the most popular size is 150 megatons.

    Second, the effects on the climate would be devastating. Temperature change would be dramatic, somewhere north of 1.5 degrees C. A temperature change of only .5 degrees C caused the Little Ice Age. This will not only affect the land. It will affect the sea. Estimates show sea life especially plankton will be affected by both lack of sunlight and radiation to a depth of at least 100 meters. These temperature changes would last decades, and who knows what will grow when radiation has scorched the Earth.

    Third, I can find no calculations on residual radiation. Many of the isotopes released from a nuclear weapon are short lived, but Strontium 90 and Cesium 137 both have half lives of nearly 30 years. How much of those isotopes will be released, and how long will they last before anything could grow, and be safe to consume. When would you even be able to breathe the air?

    JMHO, you would have to be living in a cave, or an elaborate survival bunker with a minimum 30 year supply of food, water, filtered air, and climate control to even think about surviving nuclear Winter. I will only speak for myself, but you can all do the math. IF I survived all of the above, I will certainly not be physically able to do any of the labor required to survive above ground, and rebuild a society. I would be waaaayyy lucky to make it another thirty years.
     
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  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    There are a lot of things that most people don't consider about the effects of a massive emp that shut down the power for an extended period of time. In the cities the lack of sewage and trach systems for removal, treatment and disposal will turn the mega cities into poisoned death traps.

    Banking might have their records stored in a hardened storage facility but that won't mean much to people when they don't open their doors for business. The old days of a bank balancing their books with pencil and paper are long gone. They just CAN NOT operate without their computers and calculators. Money will for a long time, maybe forever, will be related to what you had on hand the day that the lights went out. In this day of credit cards and debit cards most people don't keep very much cash on hand. Even the stores can't operate on a cash basis very well because they also don't keep the cash on hand for change that they used to.

    The hydro-electric dams that we have all over the country will become ticking time bombs as soon as they lose their ability and staff that regulated the water release. Without that the lake will overflow, go over or around the dam and cut or undercut it. The resulting floods will be EPIC.

    Medical care!! Almost immediately it will fall back to what we had fifty years ago and then within a month it will be back to what we had over a hundred years ago. Think about it. Doctors now are dependent on endless tests that are dependent on off site labs and multimillion-dollar machines. Then they just prescribe pills that you have to get from a pharmacy. Exactly how much good will a modern doctor be without any of this? Most Doctors don’t have any real surgical skills that they have practiced since their internship and residency. They don’t keep many drugs on hand. Most Doctors without their nurses and staff are not going to be much better than your Mama was when you were a kid. An EMT or paramedic will mostly be better.

    What that means is that ANY cut that breaks the skin COULD become infected and kill you. Any time you take a chill and maybe catch a cold that cold may go to pneumonia and kill you. If you get shot, even a flesh would it could be life threatening and if you get an ogan damaged you will die. No ambulance will rush you to a doctor or hospital. There is also the return of white knuckle medical and dental care. No Novocain local anesthetic, no general anestetic!!!

    There is the possibility that the military may survive as a powerful force. The question will be, is this good or bad. In the past when the military takes over operation of a country and is exempt from civilian control it is seldom a good thing. Will those troops be a part of a unitized force or without communications will they break up into small groups led by what might as well be warlords?

    It will be a drasticly different world in many unexpected ways...
     
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  16. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Texdanm,

    Ref medical care;

    Not almost; it will be immediately. This is what we are currently experiencing during major emergencies and disasters. The health care facilities get over saturated just about immediately.

    EMTs and paramedics ... also some of those new nurse categories ... are frequently about equal in delivery of emergency medical care to the new batch of doctors and physicians' assistants. I've worked with some EMTs and paramedics that I'd trust with my care well over VA Medical Centers' MDs and PAs.

    It is a - probability - that the US military will survive as a powerful force. Of course, my statement requires defining what is "the military". Much of what is on the military payroll is really disguised unemployment. The real military, both uniformed military and civil service and certain contractors ...... and some elements of the emergency responder community ...... are "disaster-hardened".

    Can't respond to the rest; I don't know.
     
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  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    you can forget the military in the UK, they don't have enough numbers to control the whole country after the collapse, political power is concentrated on London so that is where any military that's is left will be needed, the rest of the country will just have to "look after itself".
    once the power goes down so will communications, banking , filling stations and anything else that uses computers and electricity, hospitals maybe be able to function on a reduced level if they have generators but only until the fuel runs out. family doctors will be useless once the computers go blank, some health centres are also dispensing centres(like the one here) but stocks will be limited and soon exhausted.
     
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  18. GateCrasher

    GateCrasher Expert Member
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    Hydroelectric does have the advantage of not requiring much power to restart operations after a failure. They often have black start capability onsite, then they can provide power to other power stations so they can restart their operations and start generating power. Areas with hydro power may be the first back online following an EMP attack.

    This FEMA page also has a wealth of information, largely meant for emergency managers at the state and local level, on what the plans and priorities are for recovery from large-scale disasters including EMP, https://training.fema.gov/hiedu/highref.aspx Some of the older information, like the Attack Environment Manual from the 70's might be worth a look too, Chapter 4 of that manual has a high-level overview of EMP effects including some details on what types of equipment are most (and least) vulnerable.

    I'd take a MD over an EMT any day. No offense to EMTs, RNs, NPs, PAs, etc, but there's a reason they often refer to it as "practicing medicine" and MDs obviously have the most training on human physiology and anatomy. That said, having someone with combat medical training could be very beneficial. Check out https://prolongedfieldcare.org/ if you haven't seen it before, great info on how they can do a lot with very little.

    Fifty (or even 100) year old medical care practices might not even be too bad, especially applying what we have and know now to what they were able to accomplish back then. Medical equipment, supplies, and many drugs are readily available to just about anyone that wants to prep for that at the personal/group level - antimicrobials, IV administration and fluids, and even some anesthesia options are all available without prescription.

    On anesthesia for example, beyond just local anesthesia for uncomplicated procedures like suturing or draining an abscess, Lidocaine can be used for regional anesthesia. Spinal blocks can numb the entire lower half of the body, and Bier blocks can numb an extremity for hours if needed. C-sections have even been performed using only lidocaine. Open drop ether anesthesia was the old school standard for general anesthesia, later used in 'draw over' anesthesia machines which were easier to use and regulate the flow of. Instructions for building a simple draw over device are available online, some tubing, a coffee can, and a CPR/oxygen mask are the primary components to make one. Even ethyl alcohol (Everclear) can be used for general anesthesia, added to injectable water or saline and given by IV.

    3203f2c4546a845876705134386181be.jpeg
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    an EMP/solar storm isn't going to cause a nuclear winter, there wont be any electric or fuel or store and home deliveries but it wont be a nuclear winter as most would know it.
    it'll be cold and it will be dark.
     
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  20. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Gate Crasher,

    Had missed this thread's recent additions.

    Much has changed in the training programs for the various medical / health care fields such as MD, RN, paramedic - and who and when has authority to perform certain aspects of the field.

    Plus, assignments of the different titled health care providers has changed in many places.

    Portable and transportable medical clinics were available for purchase by non healthcare private citizens for lawful use. DEA also had a program for non-medical personnel to possess otherwise restricted phara. This program was focused to those working in remote area and maritime vessels. Don't know about the Ray Ban flying folks but can guess similar.

    The BIG headache is having access to the current still in manufacturing phase of pharma - and I'm really narrowing it down to the flu immunization vials. It's a major weakness in the system. The large programs are OK but the rest....a weakness.

    I am a firm believer that young folks seeking to enter the prepper arena consider taking a medical course like the initial EMT one. There are various others. Recently tested in Appalachia Virginia was a program to augment the skills and practice of dental hygienists to new DDS status.
     
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  21. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Lonewolf,

    We must be careful concerning semantics and definitions.

    Could a large EMP event over a large area like the contiguous USA occur by any means other than nuclear detonations ?

    I'm not sure if we have something approaching a meaning for nuclear winter.
     
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  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Emergency Ward physicians -- those specializing therein -- are the folk you'd want as friends or people you want to pay-off / do favors for. Nurses who've worked emergency medicine for years are also fabulous resources. Paramedics are dynamite, however they do not sew people back together except in combat situations or where hospital resources are far away / inaccessible.

    https://www.paramedictrainingspot.com/how-to-become-a-tactical-paramedic/

    Again, let me praise the veterinarian in the realm of having to take care of everything -- especially vets treating large animals. Vets who treat the stock of ranchers must know their game. Ranchers put a whole lot of faith in these professionals. An incompetent vet will not be accepted in the farming/ranching community and will lose business rather quickly -- people talk.
     
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  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I was always told that an EMP explosion in the upper atmosphere would shut down all the electrics and electronics but not kill anyone.
     
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  24. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    ER medics are on the front line in big cities, the chances of them surviving disease, rioting and looting, is I think fairly small, the chances of them finding their way to where any preppers are is I think even smaller.
     
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    1. Old Geezer
      Oh yes, unless emergency personnel in cities throw up their hands and somehow get out'a there, they are doomed. The meanest of the mean gang-looters will get around to attacking emergency medical facilities for the dope. Here's what happened at Tulane medical facilities after Katrina (this article includes affects of looting and snipers):
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1863583/
      Only had 36 hours of fuel. Not prepared.
       
      Old Geezer, Nov 30, 2019
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  25. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    The blast won't kill anyone.
    The after effects might.

    I believe they are over-hyped though.
    No one really knows what damage will be caused and what devices will survive.
     
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  26. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    A CME (solar event, coronal mass ejection) could cause similar problems to an EMP. The Carrington Event in 1859 caused damage in Europe, the Trans Atlantic Cable, and America. Smaller CME's have caused damage in localised areas. A long duration CME could be global.

    Let me express it this way. You get someone wet with a squirt gun and a small area gets wet. Next, you stand in the middle of your lawn with your garden hose on and start turning in a circle. If Earth is in the path of the CME for a short period it is the squirt gun. If Earth is in the path of the CME for close to a day it is the garden hose.

    The Sun is a sphere and a CME can leave the sphere at any direction. If it goes up or down or in any other direction except where we are going to be it will miss us. CME's happen all the time. Small enough and our magnetosphere protects us. Shooting into a point in space where we aren't and we have no problem. It is rare but we can, and do, have problems. CME's or EMP's won't kill you but they can kill electronics and electrical items. It is the secondary effect that is the killer. No fuel, no food transported, no water pumped, heck my wife couldn't talk on the phone that would probably kill her.
     
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  27. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Only suburban (?????) and rural emergency personnel will be survivors.

    I'm going to put the link I put in comment above in this.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1863583/
     
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  28. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    EMP and a state of war is most likely and then a huge nuclear exchange and THEN a possible nuclear winter. CME and the grid goes down but no fallout. The nasty winter could come after all the worlds cities catch on fire and nobody's home to put them out.
     
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  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    must be different in US then, fire service members in rural areas in the UK are all volunteers, and even those fire stations are being closed down, ambulance cover in rural areas is very sparse and more likely to come out from an urban locations, yes there are GP's/family doctors but once the grid goes down their computers go blank and any stock of drugs is limited, no family doctor can do any more than your average first aider they aren't emergency room medics, and they didn't train as such, family doctors in the UK do not do ANY surgery even in minor cases, many years ago I injured my lip and the local doctor and nurses REFUSED to stitch it up and I had to go to ER(and just because they work in a rural area it dosent mean they live in a rural area, I know a few doctors where this is the case, and dentists too).
     
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  30. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    In a highly regulated medical system there is what they know how to do and what they are allowed to do. Step outside your strictly assigned area and they step on you. In a collapse where there are no specialists to call upon the GP will do much more.
     
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  31. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Yes & No. Using current day and near future technology the only practical mean to deliver EMP strike is as byproduct of nuclear detonation (1MT detonate at high altitude)

    Not exactly albeit any will caused massive chaos at affected region. CME and EMP are based upon different energetic particle, of which CME will create problem with major infrastructure (power line and such) while EMP is affecting electronic (particularly chipset)
     
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  32. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Lonewolf, from what I gather rural Texas is VERY different from rural areas in Great Brittian. Here, every little community has its own well equipt volunteer fire department. Even the larger town near me 40 thousand people, has a mostly volunteer fire department. To some extent, we are a very self-sufficient people. Most people here handle the low-level sort of crime themselves. If you are stealing from me I CAN shoot you. Then I'll call the cops. Just the threat of this has a certain calming effect on criminals. They KNOW that they can be shot so if they are caught they haul butt before it gets ugly.

    The little town of less than 500 that I am near has a real old-time meat market and country store that butchers both domestic animals and deer and makes sausage, hams and bacon themselves and not just resale stuff from other places. To some extent, we have retained a lot of the things that were common 75 years ago in small towns but have disappeared from suburban places and such. We can easily find locally grown vegetables and fresh yard eggs are very common. In the event of a cultural economic collapse, we have the basics already in place for a local economy AND the ability to defend it.
     
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  33. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    EMP has 3 pluses and CME has an equivalent of the first pulse which can cause significant damage especially in long lines. The nature of posts means that long explanations are best saved for long articles.
     
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  34. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    nice thought, however the GP is not a surgeon and hasn't been trained as such, British GP's do less "hands on" work than your average first aider, and as I said before just because they work in a rural area does not mean they live here, many do not, and in a collapse they will be many many miles away.
     
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  35. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    first off Tex I have to say I live in a rural area and the crime rate is very low, most are of the "domestic" category, knowing everyone here and them knowing you tends to cut down on the chance of crime.
    we have our own weekly market where we buy most of our meat and vegetables and where we can buy anything from washing up bowls to lightbulbs, to garden tools and various items of clothing, this has been running since the 12th century under a charter from the King.
    there are various farm shops and farmers supply stores where we can buy anything that isn't available at the market.
    Devon is a very rural county once you get away from the more urban parts along the south coast, I'm not in south Devon I'm in North Devon which has a very small population.
     
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  36. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    As part of a doctors training they do a rotation in numerous specialty areas. This does not make them "qualified" in all those specialities but gives them a working knowledge.
    I expect that you are in the same poor situation, with your health care, as Canada. They shuffle their doctors around so much the they never get to know their doc and worse the doctor doesn't get to know them. I think that makes for less than desirable outcomes. The Canadians I've spoken to praise their healthcare and are pleased that it is free. When I asks specifics they dislike the actual care they receive.

    The way I see it you play the hand you are dealt. Your best choice may be a general practitioner or it may be a veterinarian. Every doctor I've ever had is better at something but less adept at others. I'd rather have a steak than a Big Mac but I'm not going to eat the Big Mac if that is all that is available.
     
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  37. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    we have a new doctors practise in our town but the previous doctors we were with we had to travel to another town and sometimes it would take 6 weeks to get an appointment with any doctor and I have heard the same of other places. the trouble is that newly qualified doctors want to work in big cities and not "out in the sticks" and so vacancies can remain unfilled. also lots of doctors practices are closing because they don't get enough funding to keep going.
    we were told by a previous doctor that he "wouldn't live here if you paid me too, I like to be in an urban place where I have access to everything I need", so Doctors are sheeple too.
    as I said before, in the UK just because someone might work in a rural location it does not necessarily mean that they live there too, many commute long distances, I have heard of some private dentist that commuted between London, Devon and Wales, then back to London.(he wont be doing that post TEOTWAWKI!!).
    in a SHTF situation such people may be located a long long way from any non urban survivors.
    it may be different in America- but some British preppers still aren't getting the full picture.
     
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  38. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Maybe it is different where you live but here a General practitioner is basically just a pill roller. You go to them and they give you a quick look over and then prescribe medications. If you are very sick or injured they either send you to the hospital or a specialist. They don't deliver babies, perform CPR, suture wounds or even give shots. Their entire practice is basically as diagnosticians. When there are no pharmacies to sell you pills, no emergency rooms to send you to and no specialists to treat anything but the most basic illnesses most GP physitians will be unable to do much for you.

    Unless you are talking about an emergency room physician, a surgeon or a trauma specialist a good EMT or military trained medic probably has a lot more experience and expertise on the kinds of things that you will need medical atention for in a colapsed world. Yes, they received some training in their early days but most have not had a scalpel in their hand in decades once they finish their schooling residency and internships. A surgeon with emergency training would be the best but they are few and far in-between. Most Doctors when you take away their extensive testing facilities, pharmacies, hospitals and specialists are not going to be a lot of help when you have been shot or your wife is having a baby. That is just not what they do nowadays.
     
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  39. GateCrasher

    GateCrasher Expert Member
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    Don't discount diagnosticians, knowing what the problem is is the critical first step to treating it. EMT-B certification is a semester at a community college, a physician has a doctorate in their field plus a couple years of residency and then specialty education and training. EMT training is focused on stabilization and transport.

    This is not in anyway a slight on other healthcare workers, having anyone with medical training nearby is better than not. I would just prefer those with the most knowledge in diagnosing and treating both injuries and diseases. A GP isn't likely to have had much experience with complicated surgical procedures, but at least he's had some surgical training on cadavers during his education. Wish there was a MD member here, I'm sure they could stick up for themselves, I'm certainly not qualified to judge the average GPs knowledge and capabilities on specialties outside their field of practice.
     
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  40. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    its not their knowledge that is the defining thing here, its their location, most GP's here commute in from somewhere else and in a major event that might not be possible, especially without power or fuel.
    even if one were to use the services of a veterinary the same still applies.
     
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  41. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Gatecrasher,

    We've commingling 2 related but still different subjects.

    Yes, more subject-matter training and experience after this training is more desirable. A corporate jet pilot with 1,500 hours of experience on the same type of aircraft is more valuable than a pilot with "only" 1,000 hours. A native-speaking translator is better than someone using a phrase book. A Master Mariner - All Oceans is more skilled and experience than someone who own a boat on a trailer next to the Chesapeake Bay.

    An M.D. has more training and experience than an EMT.

    The world's largest hospital system is the US Department of Veterans Affairs Veterans Health Service. A veteran patient arriving at a VA Medical Center with or without an appointment will, in all probability not have contact with an M.D.

    In Virginia, a pharmacist can administer a flu shot under the supervision of a M.D. My flu shot records and invoices - paid for by Medicare - clearly show the specifics with 1 of the specifics being the name and location of the supervising M.D. The doctor is ~ 500 miles from here in a Virginia county next to Tennessee.

    I don't know what area of the country you're in but in Virginia and the Federal systems eg Veterans and military, MUCH has changed.

    .............

    With the new batch of medical personnel on the scene, I've witnessed patient health care delivery provided by second tier personnel such as EMTs, PAs, dental hygienists equal to M.D.s This is only an opinion and I have no medical background - don't even know the difference between a compound fracture and compound interest. I still personally go on a case by case basic for my own health care when out in the field during emergencies/disasters. Some of those new EMTs from Germana Community College, Northern Virginia I trust more so than the current M.D.s Again: only my opinion.
     
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  42. GateCrasher

    GateCrasher Expert Member
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    No argument there Pragmatist, and no argument with Texdanm that certain healthcare workers are going to be better at some procedures than a MD either. I suspect a Phlebotomist has a lot more experience on venipuncture than a MD, trauma nurse, or an EMT does just by virtue of them doing it every day, all day.
     
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  43. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Pre-SHTF, I want the best that medicine has to offer. Post SHTF, I will probably be glad to have anybody with some medical skills.
     
  44. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    even someone with first aid skills may be hard to find post SHTF.
     
  45. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    If you know one, your best option for a medical person in your group may be a U.S. Army Special Forces Medical Specialist (MOS 18D). You get a doctor that can shoot. Really shoot. A Air Force PJ would also be a good add.

    Goat test not required....LOL!

    Dale
     
  46. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Based on what you have said, LoneWolf, in rural America there are far more emergency services folk who know how to keep folk alive than seen in England.

    Suffice it to say that I have intimate knowledge of medical training for all branches of medicine, EMS through the medical specialties (ER physicians, Family Med, Surgery, Pediatrics, ...).

    There are medical schools here in America that have been created for the sole purpose of drawing-in qualified students who themselves are from rural areas and who we hope will STAY in the region of their upbringing. Creating such medical schools is a relatively new phenomenon.

    In rural Appalachia, I've seen clinics open and close and open and close ... . Now they have a tendency to stay open. At least we can get residents into those places to keep the clinic doors open. Local attending physicians can be found more often now, enabling the residents to practice in such communities. These clinics set bones, suture, replace fluids, administer antibiotics, do emergency births, treat emergent heart attacks, ... -- so maybe they can't do involved surgeries, but they sure can keep people alive. Let me also praise rural EMS personnel. More and more nowadays, if these folk can't get to central education centers, the education centers go mobile to them. Think that it is involved making that happen? It sure is.

    In the last 15 years, I've seen a sea change. About time! People shouldn't have to be going to their large animal veterinarian to get proper treatment. The evolution within EMS and paramedic services is greater than that seen in the realm of providing physicians. There are more EMS and they are far better prepared than they used to be.

    I'm not the person to ask concerning the realm of urban medical provision quality / quantity. I find it mind-numbing, however, that emergency personnel fire & rescue must have police escort to prevent their taking fire from the locals or getting mobbed and robbed. That is a sure sign that civilization has come unglued in such cities. Why send so many troops overseas when we have savagery within our own urban areas?! Shut down the urban gangs! Crush them. Snap their spines. Make them civilized or make them go away forever. Yet we cannot do this, for the fascist collectivists need this urban cancer to continue. Such American traitors have metastasized into all branches of our government. Orwell's "1984" explains the situation; I need say nothing more.
     
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  47. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    a lot of the services, emergency and non emergency, over the last few years have been closed down or lost a lot of personnel in England.
    rural police stations have been closed or their "front desk" has been shut so that you can no longer contact the police for routine enquiries in person, you have to phone or go online, emergency 999 is still available, however for many "minor" crimes like burglary no police will attend, you just get a crime number for your insurance company.
    Ambulance's will only attend if a paramedic requests one, the nearest ER is 25-30 miles away and in an emergency an air ambulance(helicopter) is called.
    rural fire brigades are all volunteers, not full time, and are paid per "shout" -when they are called out to a fire.
    we have family doctors known as GP's(general practice) in some small towns and they can cover a wide area, there is some talk of such doctors no longer doing home visits, but as been said before such doctors are not "hands on" they consult and give out prescriptions but nothing more, practice nurses will give you your flu jab, anything more needs a hospital visit, requiring a 2 hour round car journey, for x-rays, tests etc.
    there are many health vacancies both in surgeries but many more vacancies in hospitals for both nurses and doctors, many thousands of vacancies in the health service nationally.
     
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  48. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    When it comes to medical assistance there are a lot of professions that have some pretty extensive medical type training as a part of their training. Naturally Nurses Emergency medical techs and such are going to be able to do a lot but then there are a lot of people that you wouldn't normally think of. People in the dental professions are required to have a lot of medical type training. Part of their licensing requirements is to have an updated CPR certification at all times. Firemen and police are also often trained in various emergency first aid techniques. Even Doctors have to go to the CPR certification classes to keep their licenses. They hate this and are often terrible at it. It just isn't something that a GP spends much time doing.

    After the fall a great majority of the medical profession are going to be trapped in the big cities. The people with the greatest chances to survive a total collapse are going to be in places that don't have a lot of doctors living among them. W as preppers need to acquaint ourselves with the possible alternative practitioners. As an example, my wife is a dental hygienist. Part of keeping her license is CPR training and a bunch of hours of continuing education every year. She has taken lots of first aid classes, actually became a certified CPR instructor. She has done emergency triage work and has a lot of pharmaceutical knowledge. Is she a doctor hell no but she is very good at first aid. She also can do a lot of dental stuff of course.

    After things collapse, we are going to have to make do with what is available. In my case I have a lot of books on medical care. I also have a lot of books having to do with both herbal medication and how to make some of the most common medicines. Penicillin is not all that hard to produce. Most pain medications had a start in natural sources. Alcohol has a multitude of uses in medical practices and medicines. Opium poppys might be a worthwhile plant as might the higher THC hemp plants. We are just now returning to some of the medical uses for marijuana that our ancestors knew.

    If you look back into the past all of these plants were very important in their many uses. As with most things, some will abuse almost anything but if you are in pain you will give a lot for some sort of relief. Another rather odd thing that you might look into is hypnotism. It can and does work and can allow pain to be temporarily turned off.

    Just food for thought...
     
  49. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I have been first aid certificated in the past(construction sites) and retain a lot of the knowledge, wife is herbally trained as well as having farming knowledge, old fashioned to some but very handy for our type of food production post SHTF, i'm also an experienced garden and allotment grower.
     
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