Here's A Grenade I Can Toss Into The Room...9mm/40/45 How Much Ammo?

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by Ken S LaTrans, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I was having a discussion with a guy who works for a smaller department that is in the Tucson area. We were at an IDPA match, and I was shooting a Glock 19 in 9mm. He was shooting a Glock 30 in 45ACP.

    He started in on the old and tired "9mm is a pussy caliber, and nothing is as good as the 45" and how he would never carry anything that didn't "start with a 4"...blah blah blah.

    Oddly enough...I beat him in ESP (I was second out of 39 shooters...my son beat me) division and placed first in Law Enforcement. He finished dead last in Law Enforcement and in the bottom half of ESP.

    Before I go any further...I love the 45ACP. I absolutely love it. It is one of my three, all-time favorite pistol cartridges, it is right up there with 9mm, 40, and 45ACP. I know right! I like all three of them. I have, at one time or another, used all three as a duty round. At one time or another...one of them was my "absolute favorite"...but that was a function of the time and place in which I was using them.

    Back in the late 80s and early 90s...my favorite was the 45ACP. Why? 9mm technology hadn't really caught up ballistically with the 45ACP in terms of real world effectiveness. (I won't use the term stopping power).

    We had Remington 115gr JHP which was little more than a 9mm FMJ with a hole drilled in it. It would expand...or not. It was over penetrative, and acted more like a remote control drill. We also had the Federal 115gr +P+ JHP (9BP in Federal nomenclature) which was better than the 115gr Remington, but it was not very accurate out of our Glock 17s, and it had a reputation for over penetration which is a severe liability in a city department.

    The 40 S&W was available, but our department had not authorized it for on-duty use, though we were allowed to carry Glock 17, 19, 26 or Glock 21, 30, or 36. The full frame guns were for uniform carry, and the medium and compact frames were for plain clothes, off duty, and detectives and command grade officers.

    I carried a Glock 21 as my uniform pistol, and pair of Glock 36s as my primary and secondary backup guns. One in my pocket, and one in an ankle holster. I often (usually) carried a Glock 30 as my primary off duty pistol with a Glock 36 as a backup.

    I carried our issued 200gr Federal HydraShok JHP ammo in all platforms. It was accurate, and had performed magnificently in every shooting we had in our department and the one in which I was involved against two armed robbers. Put simply...I had used it to save my life...it worked...I trusted it. I still trust it.

    When our department became a "9mm or 40 only" department a couple of years later...and the 40 had shown a lot of promise and effectiveness in shootings...I carried a Glock 22 as my uniform pistol with a pair of Glock 27s in the same format as I had carried the Glock 36s. Off duty, I carried a Glock 23 with a Glock 27 as backup.

    I gained a lot of confidence in the 40 when I was once again forced to use it in the line of duty. It was a one shot stop and the subject was put down, totally incapacitated and unable to resist, but thankfully not killed.

    The 9mm was getting better...but still hadn't come up into the level as the 40 and the 45 in actual street use. I had access to literally tens of hundreds of lethal force and use of force reports from all over the country and while the 9mm was making gains, the kings of the hill in semiautomatic pistol were the 40 and the 45.

    Fast forward, I move to a different agency that is a Glock 17 or 19 only agency. Guns were as-issued, ammo was as-issued, and the only choice we had was Glock 17 or Glock 19 with a Glock 26 as an approved off duty or backup weapon. If we carried anything other than the issued weapons off duty, we were specifically NOT covered by the agency's liability coverage. We all carried out Glock 9mms.

    BUT...we had new ammo. We had the newer version of the Winchester Ranger 124gr +P+ JHP and it was fantastic. It was accurate. It was effective. It was a reliable expander. It actually was performing as well as both the 40 and 45. Ammo evolution really ramped up its pace and we now have all sorts of truly premium defensive loasdings available in 9mm, 40, and 45 which empirically are one an equal playing field with one another.

    Now, the 9mm actually has a bit of an edge over the 40 and 45 simply because it can carry more ammo in the same size package, with less felt recoil, with a shorter recovery time between shots, and with a "par effectiveness" over many, many defensive uses.

    NO...this is NOT the "spray and pray"mentality". I am all about shot placement, and I promise that I am a MUCH better shooter than you are. You can save time and agree with me. I have shot to MASTER and GRAND MASTER in multiple combat shooting disciplines. It is simply the reality that with more ammunition, the competent combative shooter can stay in the fight longer between reloads. Period.

    So, we are at a place where the 9mm, the 40, and the 45 are ballistically equivalent in premium defensive loadings and any difference that might exist are so infinitesimally small, that the only difference will be whether or not the subject has had more than one cup of coffee that morning or if they are amped on some chemical and then, realistically, it is not delivered trauma that is the stopper, but exsanguination that eventually stops them and the 9, 40, and 45 are all going to perform equally poorly.

    Yes, the Caliber Cowboys are shitting purple twinkies right now because I am saying that the 45 is NOT the one single magic bullet, and that the 9mm is a magnificent stopper in premium loadings and between the Big Three...there really isn't much difference.

    AND...sorry to burst even more bubbles...but the single best and most effective handgun round ever developed is the Federal 125gr JHP 357 Magnum...but 99% of you reading this can't handle the recoil and shoot it with any sort of competence or effectiveness in a combative situation. Yeah. I said it. I know it to be true.

    How do I know this is true? I have spent thirty years training, competing, teaching others, and more hours (years) on the range than any of you ever will. I shoot 3 to 4 matches per week, teach 1 or 2 classes, train at the regional academy. I know the revolver. I shoot both a Smith & Wesson K Frame revolver in EXPERT class in IDPA and Grand Master in USPSA, and a Smith & Wesson Model 627 Pro Series in USPSA. I have shot 300/300 in my department's qualification course with both, using 125gr Federal JHP 357 Magnum Ammo. In over 20 years, I have not seen another officer do it. In 25 years, I have never seen a civilian shoot 250/300 other than active competitive shooters.

    Yes...you may be able to put holes in pie plates on the static square range...but I am talking about combat shooting where ALL the skills involved in defending your life are in use. Shooting on the move, from the holster, reloading under time pressure...all while getting effective hits on the target. Shooting holes in paper with all the time in the world is a world of difference away from getting the effective hits you NEED to save your life when you don't have all the time in the world.

    So, what determines what I am going to carry day to day? When will I carry a 45?

    The answer is "not that often". When I went to New Jersey last year, regardless of the fact that I am a retired police officer and carry on LEOSA/HR218...I am still prohibited from carrying JHP ammo in public in New Jersey. So, I carried a Glock 30 in 45ACP and a Glock 36 in 45ACP, both loaded with 230gr Hornady Truncated Cone Flat Point ammo at standard velocity. This round has proven to be much less over penetrative than 230gr Ball ammo and it "pre-expanded".

    If I was in New York City on vacation, and was limited to a 7-round magazine with non-expanding ammo (there is continuing arguments in NYC if retired cops from other states can carry JHP ammo, so I choose NOT to be the one to be the test case)...then I would carry a PAIR of Glock 36 pistols, each loaded with the aforementioned 230gr Hornady Truncated Cone Flat Point ammo that I carried in New Jersey.


    I would NEVER carry 9mm FMJ for self defense if I had ANY choice in the matter. It is woefully ineffective as a fighting round, over penetrates horribly, and creates very little permanent wound channel.

    The 40 is only marginally better than the 9mm in FMJ loadings and not as good as the 45, so I would eschew both in favor of the 45 under those circumstances.

    It is an unarguable fact that during WWI and WWII, the American 45ACP FMJ round was MUCH more effective than ANY pistol round fielded by ANY other country.

    Continued For Part Two
     
  2. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    PART TWO

    However...in the 73 years since the war ended...okay...in the last 20 years, with the advent of modern premium hollow point ammunition...apples to apples...the 9mm is every bit as good as the 45 and in some user-platforms and circumstances it is better. The reverse is also true. The pivot point is realistically immediately circumstantial and can't be anticipated.

    What is the modern jacketed hollow point bullet designed to do?

    1. Feed reliably in quality pistols
    2. Deliver accuracy
    3. Penetrate to between 12 and 14 inches of tissue
    4. Expand to .50-.65 caliber

    The 9, 4o, and 45 all do that very well.

    So, now, what we're really talking about when it comes to an attachment to a given round is an emotional attachment...not a practical one. If you are able to set critical emotion aside, and exercise critical thinking, then you should be able to take the intellectually sound position, based on empirical evidence, that the 9mm is a very effective round in premium defense loadings.

    Before any of you scream FANBOY! to the rafters...please recognize that the term "fanboy" is the "internet expert's version of the race card". It is pulled when the internet caliber commando's argument is being shredded with common sense, logic, reason, and fact.

    I have already stated that I love the 45ACP. I merely recognize that it is NOT the "one magic bullet" that so many think it is.

    So...why would I carry a larger, heavier, harder to conceal pistol with less ammunition when I can carry a somewhat smaller, more concealable, lighter, faster shooting pistol with ammunition that is equally effective?

    That is what it boils down to.

    I hope I didn't cause too many strokes...but...there ya have it.
     
  3. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I have the Hornady reloading manual here at my computer desk.

    I also have the Hornday reloading manual from some 20 plus years ago.

    In addition to many new powders in that span of time...there are numerous improvements in bullet design.

    I speak here ...from rifle to pistol both.


    Something sure happened to bring back the .380 round...and I suspect bullet design and hence effectiveness has significantly improved in that caliber and since the olde days.


    I suspect that computer design...has helped to make bullets of today more efficient at a given task than some 20 plus years ago.

    I am not particularly a sports fan...but certain sports fans and those sports history fans have told me that more and more equipment for sports today has been computer designed...from golf clubs to bicycles..sports shoes and wear....and the whole spectrum of sports tools.

    I suspect that the same computer tools have been applied to bullet design as well...and with the results for which Ken S La Trans has been describing in effectiveness today.

    My .02,

    Watcherchris
     
  4. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Sonofabitch...you had to bring up the 380 (lol).

    I have largely ignored the 380 simply because 9mm pistols are available in platforms that are in the same size range as the 380 used to dominate. The Kahr CM9 is my personal favorite along with the Smith & Wesson Shield.

    When I started in LE back in the last century...a compact 9mm was the Smith & Wesson Model 39. The only reason why it was "compact" was because it was thinner than the 1911 or the Hi Power. The 380 lived in the Walther PPK and PPK/s series, along with the Beretta 84 and 85. Yeah, there were others...but these were the mainstream ones that were readily available. You could get the old AMT380 which would work....or not. The Detonics Pocket Nine...which would also work...or not. I never placed faith in a gun that would work...or not. And, of course, back then the 380 was more of a "better than nothing" round and being damned near 6'5", I could conceal a full size gun...so I did.

    One thing that I find hilarious is the number of doods who say the 9mm is a "pussy" round, yet when you ask them what they carry they say "Uhhhhhh....a KelTec P3AT" or "Uhhhhhhhh....a Ruger LCP".

    Yeah...I know the 380 has sort of grown up a little and become a "decent" defensive round in its most premium loadings, but I will still pass on it simply because there are so many 9mm pistols available in the same size range.

    Here is a pocket gun my wife bought me a few years ago as a joke for my birthday. She knows I hate A) Nickel plated guns B) Fake Ivory Grips...though these are bakelite C) 25ACP.
    Colt 25.jpg
    Damned good thing my wife is HOT, otherwise I'd divorce her for shit like that.
    Stace Shooting.png
     
  5. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I'm not sure exactly why some people don't deal well with recoil and some people just don't seem to mind it. I used to do some range instructing and never really understood it. Some people seem to be able to control their ..."fear" and some never seem to master it for long. I have seen big men over 6 feet tall and over 200 pounds that would recoil with the gun pointing straight up when they would drop the hammer on a dummy load. Their recoil was not related to the gun kicking, it was a reflex action.

    On the flips side my daughter loved shooting high powered handguns from a very young age. I did gunsmith work out of my home and we shot nearly everything I worked on. This was back when most cops carried revolvers and about the only automatic that was ever used was a 1911 45 ACP. I remember when they came out with the 41 mag specifically as a gun for law enforcement. That was a great round and if you made a hit it made a big impression. Alas too many people just couldn't handle it.

    Now days it is all about magazine capacity and if people aren't smart they will just spray and pray. I've seen films of it time after time when two guys go all out at each other across a counter in a convenience store. Lots of shooting and nobody has holes in them. LOL.

    Personally I think that a person is best served by carrying the most gun that they can accurately and repeatedly fire on an almost instinctual basis. The only way to achieve this sort of ability is to shoot a LOT and do it often with a gun that you can point instinctively. You are better with a 22 lr than a 44 mag if you can learn to shoot that 22 real well and can't handle the 44 confidently.

    In general the 9mm has replaced the old 38 special as the round that most people can master without too much trouble. They are a lot better than they used to be. The autos now are dependable and most important they handle better stuff than the old anemic FMJ that used to be about all that you could shoot and depend on not jamming. I don't have a lot of use for subsonic ammunition for defence. Like you mentioned the 357 with 125 grain halfjacjeted hollow point is a dependable stopper and is my favorite defence load.

    Like most people these days I carry a 9mm for concealed carry. I don't care much for big magazines because they are heavy and to be real, I don't anticipate having a shootout with more than a couple of people at a time. Being an lod revolver trained shooter I AIM. I didn't have 17 rounds to chase some dip around with. If I squeeze the trigger someone will have a hole in them.

    I sat on a jury once where a man had shot someone across the width of a car three times and none of the bullets did much more than poke just under the skin. Cars were a lot bigger then and it was winter so he had a coat on and the gun was a Saturday Night Special but nonetheless I lost faith in a 25 for much of anything.

    People need to buy a handgun that they can shoot a lot. 9mm ammo and 22lr are about as cheap as there is so they both make a good place to start and then maybe move up. To me the Bren 10 was about the best defence auto but like the 41 mag most people couldn't handle it. The 40 was ok at first but they kept lowering it in power until there really isn't much point in it over a good 9mm load. If I was going to go auto now I would probably go with a 357 sig in a Glock because a quick change of the barrel lets you shoot 40 s&w in case the 357 sig fades out like it looks like it is going to.

    What ever you choose you need to make it so that you can hit whatever you aim at without having to resort to spraying. My biggest problem with spraying is that you are not aiming when you do that and this makes it to damn possible that you hit something or some body that you didn't intend to.
     
  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Woman shoots man in leg with a .22 short. Bullet finds its way into the great saphenous. Bullet gets pumped up through right side of heart into a lung. Man dies of pulmonary embolism ... a lead embolism.

    What can you say? Sometimes a man's luck just runs out.
     
  7. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Yeah...sometimes it does. When you add in all the people who "die of stupid" every single day the number goes up. BUT...I am never going to trust luck, good or bad, to get the job done.
     
  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I like my Browning Hi Power due to its extreme accuracy. The "shoots like a rifle" thingy in particular handguns is the draw to me. The Browning fits perfectly into my hand.

    The .357 is for when something has to by-god drop and/or you gotta shoot through the sides of vehicles. For men with larger hands, the .41 magnum is a perfect caliber.

    I like an all steel chopped 9mm due to their size being that of a .380/.32.
     
  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    My dad ran gambling machines and was himself a gambler. He taught me how to gamble when I was a child. He never let me win. His words, "You will never bluff me. I will always pay to see your cards."

    Half century later, I don't gamble.
     
  10. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    LOL LOL LOL......

    Though this is a serious topic....you guys have me rolling back and forth and laughing in my office chair here at my computer.


    I was never a 9mm fan...but have handled one Browning High Power...and I liked it very much. There is something about it significantly different from these new plastic...striker fired pistols. Even the feel of it..the heft and balance in ones hands.

    For some reason I don't see the Browning High Power up for sale much now days..verses a host of other 9mm's on the market for sale every day.

    However..to be fair since the days when I handled that Browning High Power..so long ago....bullet design ..as stated has come along way since. Powder selection too.


    I verily like my 1911 and occasionally carry it in a fanny pack or in a pancake holster with spare mags.

    However usually I am carrying a GP 100 in .357 mag...and speed loaders...on my hip pancake rig again. Speed loaders and also a wallet cartridge case..18 rounds.


    Only on occasion do I carry my S&W model 57 in an under arm holster...as it is a large pistol. Speed loaders too.
    The 41 mag is a mule..on both ends. I do need to practice more with this calibration...and am learning to roll my own for it.
    Have the 41 mag in a Blackhawk too and also like it. Both are six inch barrels.

    Oh...and simple economics dictated that I roll my own for this calibration in .41 Mag. Factory loadings are expensive and come in 20 round boxes.


    Ken,

    Agree...and have no interest in a .380. I don't really care for the 9MM but agree..they are everywhere today.


    I have a .40 caliber S&W stainless gun sold to me by a fellow at work who needed some cash. I had no interest in the .40 but for the price I reasoned I could not pass it up. I just don't particularly care for the long trigger take up on these striker fired pistols..but have since learned to manage it.
    The .40 S&W is a cartridge which also has a stout recoil but not unmanageable.

    Had a chance to fire a Ruger American at the gun club ..a striker fired pistol in 9mm and liked the trigger pull on that one better than my .40 S&W.

    My problem is that I have shot some guns with very good triggers. This can spoil one when using other guns.

    Hence back to what Texdamn and Ken both aptly state...train ...train...train...with what you have.


    Olde Geezer...

    I too am not a gambler. Took a woman to Las Vegas years ago..and never gambled the whole time I was there. Just not interested in gambling away my hard earned monies.

    But......

    They do put on some fabulous buffets and food spreads...now that interested me greatly.
    Also some nice shows.

    But overall ...Las Vegas is not my kind of place..to big ..to much flashy lights and bling...not for me.

    Prefer the country or the mountains. Some peace and quiet. Now that is my tune...not the fast food lane of life.


    Gentlemen..thanks for some great posts,

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
  11. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    I must say...the Hi Power is my most beloved of handguns. In reality, my favorite handguns rank in order:

    Smith & Wesson Model 19 4"
    Smith & Wesson Model 25 4"
    Browning Hi Power
    1911A1 5"
    Glock (pick a model)

    BUT...my attachment to the Smith revolvers, Browning, and Saive pistols (Let us not forget the 1911 is a John Moses Browing Design and the Hi Power was actually designed by Dieudonné Joseph Saive) are emotional. I love the feel of them, I like shooting them, and I like building and customizing them. But, I also recognize that as fighting pistols, they have been eclipsed by more modern designs.

    Conversely, my attachment to Glock pistols is purely rational. I have carried them on duty for so many years...and used them to actually fight and save my life...add to that with ZERO failures over half a million round fired in competition...then my rational brain tells me that that format pistol has exceeded the inherent design limitations of the 1911 or the Hi Power.

    While I do NOT recommend the practice...Glock is the ONLY semiautomatic pistol I would load and carry and trust my life to it without ever having fired that specific pistol. Exigent circumstances put me in that position one night after shots were fired. The shoot team had to take my gun, and my Lieutenant who was a cop's cop, went to her trunk and pulled out a Glock box with a new Glock 22 in it and handed it to me and said "Your holster looks empty. Stick this in there". I loaded it, stuck it in my holster...and knew it would work.

    I would NEVER trust a Hi Power or 1911 that I didn't personally work on until I have several hundred rounds through it with the specific ammo I intend to carry.

    The Smith revolver...being a different animal...is the one I would trust to work as much as I trust a Glock to work.

    Yes...the M&P series, Hk pistols, Sig, CZ, Ruger...on and on...are all fine fighting pistols as well. My simple, rational preference is for the Glock.

    My FAVORITE single handgun of all (134 at last count) handguns I own:
    Nelson Ford Customized Model 25 45ACP Revolver
    I shoot this one in IDPA at least once a month.

    Nelson Ford Model 25.png
    Centennial Hi Power.
    I ramped, throated, polished this one. I polished the face of the magazine safety so the magazines drop free, and did a complete trigger job. Now the trigger breaks at 3.5lbs (Hi Power triggers SUCK out of the box and are a nominal 7.5lbs) with zero creep or over travel.
    Centennial Hi Power 1.png
    Centennial Hi Power 2.png
    Adjustable Sight Hi Power that I did the same work as above...only this one has been NP3d by ROBAR
    BHP ~ 1 - Copy.jpg
    My "Oddball Weird Gun Favorite"...my CZ75B that I won in a match
    IMG00502-20101120-1311.jpg
     
  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The model 19 K Frame is a working man's gun. If you are going to carry a revolver on a day to day basis it is the S&W revolver of choice. If you are going to shoot a lot and like to reload on the hot side I always loved my Model 28 N Frame. In the end the 586 L Frame was a great compromise.

    All that said and with thousands of hours polishing and tuning S&W revolvers actions, I carry a Ruger Security 6 with a target trigger and hammer. I like to load monsters and the Ruger will take that sort of thing that would ruin a K frame Smith. Weight wise it is like the K frame but with the strength of the N frame. Since I was never a cop or even an armed security person it was the best choice for me. I did a little bouncing but that isn't an armed sort of security work.

    My one big regret is that I don't have a Hi Power. It was a gun far ahead of its time and some of John Browning's best work. The thing was that back in my day the ammo was just about all FMJ that would feed reliably without a lot of porting and polishing work. The ammo today is great and I have no problems with it feeding in anything. The heavier bullets at better speed that they have now, to me, has finally made a separation between the 45 and the 9mm that makes the 9mm a better security round. The better speed allows the hollow points open and make up for the initial smaller hole size. Throwing the just insane number of rounds most 9mm mag hole makes it the leader now days. When it was ball ammo against ball ammo the 45 was better. Now that is just not the case.

    I still will take a 6 shot 357 mag or 41 mag revolver over either though. I remember back when a Houston cop emptied a Hi Power 9mm into a guy and was into a second mag before he took the guy down. PCP made it so you had to drain the brain to stop someone and the 9mm ball just wasn't up to it. In general cops are discouraged from doing headshots so you have to do enough damage gto drop the blood pressure and kill the brain and that takes a lot of damage and time when the guy is trying to tear you to pieces.
     
  13. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    When we carried the Model 19 before the switch to bottom feeders, our issue ammo was Federal 110gr +P+ JHP 38. It didn't beat up the Model 19s at all. We had 125gr JHP 357 ammo "available for special circumstances"...which I always thought was stupid because "special circumstances" usually mean someone screwed up, or they came up on the fly and ESP is not issued equipment so it was useless in your range bag anyway.

    Special circumstances meant I got out of my cruiser with my M4.
     
  14. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Cops always had to deal with the way things would LOOK to the civilians when the media was done twisting things around. A MAGNUM was just considered mean and unnecessarily deadly in the minds of the idiots. The same reasoning was why headshots are almost forbidden and no cop with any sense at all will qualify with a perfect score. If you have a perfect shooting score in your qualification some lawyer may later say that you killed someone unnecessarily since if you are that good you could have shot them in the leg. Such insanity!!

    Unlike a cop I was taught to double tap the chest then if they were not on the ground to go upstairs. If someone isn't moving fast I will just start there. I trained shooting playing cards which are the size of a sinus shot. I would have made a terrible cop. Cops have to kick ass and take names but then suddenly stop when the guy stops resisting. If I get started I stop when you stop moving or even defending yourself. That usually means that you are out. I don't want to kill anyone but then again I don't want you to come back up on me either.
     
  15. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    If you have a perfect shooting score in your qualification some lawyer may later say that you killed someone unnecessarily since if you are that good you could have shot them in the leg.

    That's an old wive's tail that just won't die. While it is true a shyster "amberlampse" chasing lawyer can float a bullshit theory such as that in front of a jury...and they are always trying something new...it takes less than two minutes to shoot that particular bit of hestafoit down and make them look like a complete fool and a liar in front of a jury. I haven't heard that particular claim in a courtroom in over 20 years when "super deadly hollowpoint ammo" was still the big bugaboo.

    "Officer LaTrans, is it true that you are a nationally ranked competitive shooter and have been in several lethal force incidents already? Isn't it true that you shoot so you can be a more deadly gunfighter? And may I remind you that you re under oath?"

    "I am well aware that I am under oath counselor, just as I am well aware that you are not" (pause, look the jury in the eye) "While it is true that I shoot competitively, I shoot competitively to keep my skill at a high level for the safety of not only the suspect, but for the safety of the city I am sworn to serve".

    "Safety...riiiight. How can you say that shooting at such a high level is safer for the suspect...or...your...victim...as well as the public as a whole?"

    "Because counselor, I know that any time I am forced to discharge my weapon in the line of duty, there are at least two attorneys attached to each bullet. One, the attorney in the prosecutor's office who will review every action I was forced to take, and the one such as yourself who is paid if he can successfully sue the department on behalf of the criminal who forced me to fire".

    "How does that make your skill as a...gunfighter....more safe for the public or your....GASP...victim?"

    "Because counselor, I have worked and trained hard at my own expense to acquire the skills necessary to assure that I will hit my target, and not send wild shots into innocent bystanders if I am forced to fire my weapon".

    "And yet...you fired three deadly hollowpoint bullets into the chest of your victim. Why not simply shoot the alleged gun out of his hand".

    "Counselor. The hand, along with the leg, and the head are the most mobile and dynamic targets on a human body. Even if I were a professional trick shooter, a small, fast moving target like that is difficult to hit. Not only that, as the chances of missing increase so do the chances of hitting an innocent bystander, and you can couple that with the fact that a gunshot wound to the hand is permanently crippling and a leg shot is often likely to cause excruciating pain, but not necessarily stop the threat and that leads to a necessity of firing more rounds into the suspect which is by any measure cruel and unusual punishment, or killing them outright. Our goal is not to kill, it is to stop a threat and the high center chest area of the human torso has demonstrated time and time again to be the most efficient target area where a suspect will be stopped and with the least chance of over penetration where the bullet may travel through them and into an innocent bystander. It took three shots to the high center chest to stop the threat, and as soon as the threat was topped, I stopped firing".


    ***By this time the opposing counsel was apoplectic shouting OBJECTION! to the rafters, but he can't tell you to shut up...only the dude in the black robe behind the bench can tell you to shut up. He committed the first fundamental mistake of the shyster lawyer...he asked me WHY? And he did it because I laid the trap and framed my HONEST answers in such a way that he HAD TO ask why...then I shot him and his bullshit assertion fill of holes***

    It is also noteworthy that the judge looked at him and said "Overruled counselor...you asked the question. Officer you may continue".

    ***The jury was smiling at this point, and the opposing counsel was red faced and about to explode***

    "....and this is why I have taken the choice to develop skills that will allow me to serve my community more effectively and to assure the highest degree of safety to the community as a whole".

    ***At this point, the opposing counsel was trying to save face and he pulled another one out of his ass***

    "Isn't it true that your victim was a measured thirty yards from your position? That's an extreme range for a handgun, surely you didn't consider a man with only a handgun to be a danger to you at such an extreme distance?"

    "Well counselor, no, I don't consider thirty or even fifty yards or more to be an extreme range for a handgun, especially when you take into account that your client was firing his handgun in my direction and there were innocent bystanders in the potential line of his fire".

    "So you're saying that thirty yards is not an extreme range for a man with a handgun?"

    "Counselor, you said it yourself. I placed three rounds into the spot I was aiming...using only a handgun at the same range".


    ***Several members of the jury laughed out loud and shook their heads at the shyster***

    "I have nothing further".

    At that...my attorney (attorney for the city)...simply said "The defense rests".

    The judge gave the jury their instructions vis a vis the "preponderance of the evidence" and they were back in less than fifteen minutes with a FULL finding for the defense (me and the city).

    Oddly enough...any time that particular attorney heard he was going to be facing ME on the stand...he tried to cut a deal before it went in front of a judge or a jury.

    The point is....any bullshit assertion that a shyster lawyer can invent can be shot down and destroyed by an honest, and smart officer or civilian who is forced to fire to stop a threat who knows his shit.








     
  16. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Most people don't know that a leg shot can be about as lethal as a chest shot. If you bust that femoral artery you will bleed out in a couple of minutes. I sat on a jury one time for a crazy dude that had tried to kill an EX-girlfriend twice and beat her nearly to death once. We gave him life as a habitual criminal. Two days later when they were transporting him he shanked a deputy. The deputy shot him once in the armpit from the ground. End of him. He died before anyone could do anything for him. Does kicking someone in the chest count as CPR?

    I had an FFL and worked off and on at a range and did gunsmith stuff but it was over 30 years ago. I dealt with a lot of cops and did trigger jobs on a ton of model 19s and 66s for them. That about the perfect score was what they told me. Personally if I couldn't carry hollow points I always liked semi wadcutter handloads. I got totally out of the gun business, I even sold every gun that I owned that had paper on it, when Janet Reno and the Clintons declared war on anyone with an FFL.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  17. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Texdanm,

    I've heard that too about semi wadcutters. I reload a lot of them either in cast lead or copper plated bullets. Get them by the 500 count box when I can...for .38/357.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  18. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Yeppers I have three boxes of 500 count 158 gr. simiwadcutteers. I used to buy my jacketed bullets by the pound from an old guy that had huge barrels of them in the common calibers and configurations. His prices were insanely great. I especially like the 125 gr half jacketed hollow points. He also had some 170gr jacketed soft points that were great for hunting especially in my lever action Trapper. That was back before the leveraction bullets that have pointed plastic tips that are safe in a tubular magazine but have way better ballistic coefficients.
     
  19. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Well, look at the era where that bad advice was dispensed by men who should have known better. It was also the era when someone would say "If you shoot someone on the porch, drag 'em inside".

    Common sense, logic, and reason should tell anyone that it's not only bad, but downright stupid advice.

    "Officer X...your scores on the pistol range are average, or below average at best. In fact, your scores show that you barely qualified. So, with that it mind, isn't it also true that you are barely competent to carry a firearm, let alone carry one in the performance of your duties as a police officer?"

    "Duhhhhh....er....ah.....well....."

    "Officer X, isn't it also true that some officers will actually qualify with a lower score on purpose based on the advice that high scores on the qualification range will somehow get them into trouble of they have to use their weapon on duty, and shoot too well, or miss?"

    "Duhhhh....er...ah...well...."

    "So, which is it Officer X? Are you merely incompetent, or are you a liar who fudged your scores on purpose?"

    There is a saying in law enforcement that goes "Suck one cock, you're a cocksucker for life. Tell one lie, you're a liar for life".

    How much credibility is Officer X going to have when he either admits to being incompetent, or to being an officer who willfully and purposefully fudged his scores? Nothing he/she says after that will have any credibility. More over...any attorney who has been halfway down the block will know all of those anecdotal bits of BS advice and they WILL use it in court. I know. I have seen them try it. Remember, they can throw any BS theory they want to and they are NOT under oath. The officer is. So...lie or admit to incompetence. Those are the only choices and both will end a career.

    And not to put too fine a point on it...but "knowing a bunch of cops..." doesn't really impart any expertise into how the job really works.

    But, what do I know? I only did it for thirty years.
     
  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Wow, are you telling me that cops lie and are stupid? That never occured to me. It also never occured to me that they might have had nefarious reasons for always trying to get me to sell them an untraceable gun off the books. Let's face it, cops have a big problem with their public relations and the way many people perceive them.

    The thug type things that they were allowed to get away with back then has come home to them now and bit them right in the butt. I always worried more about cops than I ever did about gang bangers and criminals. If they attacked me I could defend myself. I had two separate close friends Assault police officers kel-lite flashlights with their faces while they were on their knees with their hands cuffed behind them. Neither of them were ever prosecuted for anything...on the condition that they didn't sue over the beatings that they took. Neither as far as I know have ever been convicted of anything. One was beat for being a licensed firearms dealer. The other was a little guy that I ran around with that was beat for driving while having long hair. That's sort of like the current driving while black.

    I was cuffed and threatened one time because they said they SMELLED weed on me. I was clean as hell at that time, on the board of directors of my church and a youth counselor and youth leader. But I had long hair and that was all the criminal behavior that they needed to treat me like a criminal. You seem to have the typical cop problem in that you have never had to have manners because you got to carry a gun and could do or say anything you wanted. I live in a small town now and we have great police. Lets face it there is not much opportunity to be a big bad cowboy in Maybury.

    When I was in the gun business I was older and had short hair. I always was very careful in all my dealings with cops though and only trusted them as far as I could throw them. The cops at the time in the area that I worked were the worst sort. The good news is in the end the US attorney general cleaned them out. After that we didn't have any more suicides where someone shot themselves several times in the back with a single shot bolt action rifle or show up in a pond with three bullet holes in their skull in an accidental drowning. At one point the head county cop and acting Sheriff had only been a cop for two weeks. The entire rest of the department was in jail with federal charges.

    Hows that for a grenade?
     
  21. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    Not really even a lady finger. Seriously...I mean...*pop* in small letters.

    If you actually READ what I wrote...I was calling out and criticizing the behavior of the COPS.

    The bold type in yellow is the line of questioning an attorney would bear down on during a trial if an officer was stupid enough to follow that dumbass advice. It is an exposition of HOW that bad bit of advice that was dispensed years ago by poorly trained and NON professional law enforcement agencies.
     
  22. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The cop that told me that was a lieutenant in charge of training with the Houston PD. Whatever, if I misunderstood you then I'm sorry if I was rude. Having long hair and riding motorcycles in late 60s and early 70s I didn't have many pleasant interactions with cops. What was funny was that I was not a hippie or a doper. I was just a long haired redneck cowboy ahead of my time. My motorcycle was never a chopper. I rode a dressed bike that when I sold it I sold it to a cop for escorting funerals and such. My car was a 56 chevy that I bought from a farmer for 125 dollars and rebuilt myself. I owned a horse for most of my life and all I wore on my big feet were Tony Lama 150 dollar cowboy boots.(Back then those were about the only EEE width things I could wear) I was very active in my church and every time I had to deal with a damn cop I was treated like I was some criminal piece of crap.
     
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