Lie Detection

Discussion in 'Other Advanced Survival Skills' started by pacmantacman, Apr 4, 2019.

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  1. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    I have found that lie detection is an extremely useful skill to possess. A lot of tactical problems can be abated or avoided altogether with this skill.

    We understand how important awareness is, lie detection done right is close to a super power as you are likely to realistically get. It can tell you what is going to happen in the future so you can avoid it. It can also give you an accurate account of what has happened in the past. It can uncover threats of all kinds and get you in front of big problems.

    Does anyone develop and practice lie detection? I find I use this skill often for big and little things to help keep me safe.
     
  2. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    NOPE, I am the worlds worst judge of people. It would be real helpful if I knew somebody was lying. My word is my bond and I apply that to everybody I meet. If a person lies to me, I will never trust them again. One reason I do not join and will never join any group.
     
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  3. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I find this easier on some than with others, for instance, with our prime minister & Trump, it is easy to detect. If they open their mouths they are lieing!!!
    Keith.
     
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  4. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    MANY years ago I read a book called "Body Language" and it was amazing and opened my eyes to learning how to read a person "tells". Very few people have the ability to hide their body language signals. Some people are, even as adults, as bad as a toddler when they are lying. Others take a little more studying before you have a clear picture.

    Most of this breaks down with a certain kind of person. A pathological liars sort of believes their lies or something because their tells is almost invisible. They are actually more likely to have a verbal tell than a physical one. Very strange people.

    Another thing that you can do with an understanding of body language is to use it proactively to influence people while you are talking or dealing with them. There is a huge silent language that people use all the time, mostly on an unconscious level, to communicate with each other.

    It can be great entertainment to play with peoples unconscious feelings or to confuse them. Have you ever wondered how in a crowded mall people walk in all directions and really very seldom run into each other? It is part of the unconscious language. When two people are approaching each other they will glance up at the other person's eyes. When their eyes meet they sort of play a game of rock paper scissors to decide which way they each should go and they pass easily. Once you understand the game you can choose how you want them to move and mostly make them do as you wish. OR you can play the game and then don't do as you had indicated and walk right into each other. I met several pretty young ladies this way. I would signal them to pass on my left and then step left and just stop so that they ran into me. We would laugh and it would break the ice for me.

    The mind is still our greatest unexplored wilderness!
     
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  5. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Body language is one method of lie detection but too unreliable to be counted on in my experience.

    However I agree with you that subconscious behavior is the key to not only lie detection but identify and avoiding/midigating most violent attracts also.
     
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  6. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    Unless they read the book too.

    The more time you spend listening to people talk, the easier it is to know when they are lying.

    Patterns will emerge, and stories will contradict previous statements, showing their lack of credibility.
     
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  7. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Just reading it won't help you all that much. In order for you to be able to control your mostly UNCONSCIOUS small movements takes a lot of serious practice and a rigid focus. It is a lot easier to learn to see these movements and expressions in other people than it is to stop yourself from doing it without looking like a plastic dummy. You can't just NOT make the tell moves, you have to replace them with something that looks natural. It is HARD to do without a lot of practice.
     
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  8. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    All completely true.
     
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  9. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    I have come to assume everything is a lie unless proven otherwise
    I know a few tells and how to ask the right questions.

    I also study people and have fine tuned my BS detecter.:D
     
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  10. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I have a total fascination with things having to do with the mind. I have always had a hard time really understanding people. Not like autism rather I just often times when I was a kid was puzzled by things that people did. I didn't have an easy childhood and while dealing with that I started learning that the differences I was seeing were because of hidden things that had shaped them. I was about 15 or 16 when I read "Body Language" To some extent it was like shining a light on things for me. You can read so much more than just lies.

    I am probably about the easiest person in the world to get along with if you have issues. Autistic people are not stupid they just don't have the natural ability to read people and are even more puzzled than I was. I actually like special people. The autistic, OCD and mentally challenged people will usually find a friend in me.
     
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  11. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    For myself, I just learned to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. then I don't have to practice anything, it will come naturally. For the other folks, I really won't trust you until you have earned that trust.
     
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  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I always think of the old advice in this context: " if it sounds too good too be true it probably is".
     
  13. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    My OH started up a business buying and selling antiques around 30 years ago, over the years it has forced us to deal with plenty of manipulating liars, I can spot them a mile off, I'm good at it.
    It's also surprisingly easy to tell when someone is trying to manipulate you or be dishonest over the telephone.
    Over the Internet it is rather harder, I can only seek independent verification of people's statements if they're specific enough (and in some cases I have looked for the liars and found them out) Lying well is a skill that very few people have.
     
  14. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    I have found this to be extremely true, even though a lot of people think they are good at it.
     
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  15. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Subconscious clues or rather “leaks” are generally the key to lie detection. The ironic thing is the more people lie, or the better they feel they are at lying, often the more they will exibit these clues.

    Tex since you have an interest in this subject I will ask you to not disregard the body language clues but temporarily at least consider focusing on a more reliable indicator which is verbal leaks.

    The words people say are the biggest indicators of deception if you know what to ask and what to listen for.
     
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  16. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I'm with TMT on this one. TMT, if you are the World's Worst Liar then I am second, and some day I will fight you for the title. It has been sad over the course of my career. I have seen things change from your word was your bond, and a handshake was sufficient to; you better get it in writing; to I don't care if it is in writing, sue me. Trust is not even in the English language any more. Not a change for the better, and not anything I care for.

    I have gotten better at detecting lies over the years. Maybe it comes from being lied to a lot. One thing I have found is that honest people expect everybody else to be honest. It doesn't even occur to them that someone would be lying. Dishonest people expect everybody to be dishonest. You never get anything past them because they expect everybody to be lying. So when dishonest people are dealing with honest people you better count your fingers after you shake hands.

    Try working the Scrap Industry. Those people would lie if the truth sounded better.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I've lost count how many times I've been lied to online, usually found out a bit later that what I was told was a lie.
    I trust nothing now without proof.
     
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  18. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Tex the reason body language is an unreliable indicator is because a lot of factors effect body language. For instance if your arms are crossed, it may be that you are defensive, or it may be you are just cold. As one example.
     
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  19. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    Agreed. All the more reason I try to vet or research what I post here. The last thing I want to do is give, or get bad information.
     
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  20. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    As a child I tried to tell a few lies, /got caught every darn time. Finally figured out I was not worth all the time and trouble. It is easy to remember the truth, a whole lot harder to remember the lie. The hard part for me was to learn not to be so brutally honest. That "how does the dress look on me", is a real killer. When I was dating, I used to tell the Ladies, don't ask me a question, unless you want the honest truth.
     
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  21. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    It's not that hard to hide them when you know what they are.
    That means they are no longer "unconscious".

    Sure you can.
    It's really not that hard to do.
    Lots of salesmen do it for a living.

    The easy thing is simply sticking to the facts so you don't need to lie.
     
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  22. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    I've seen lots of them on the internet because I have a good memory for things I read.

    I've seen people tell completely different versions of the same story on different sites, and then they got mad at me for pointing out the discrepancies.

    I still see them repeating those same lies, pretending it's real when really it's just their fantasies.
     
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  23. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Tex here is a powerful technique or formula for detecting lies. It’s not a slam dunk but it’s a strong indicator, probably the strongest.

    First ask a yes or no question. Or basically a close ended question with a predictable number of words required to answer. Again essentially a “yes” or “no”question.

    After asking the question the number one clue is they used two many words to answer the question. You say, “Do you have any weapons on you?” They say, “I don’t even own a weapon.” The clue is too many words because a simple “no” was all that was needed. They use too many words because subconsciously they don’t expect to be believed so they have to sell it.

    But that’s not the big clue because a giant other clue was present also. They didn’t answer the question! Not answering the question is the major indicator when someone is lying.

    GG: Did you do it?
    BG: Why would you ask me that?

    GG: Can I trust you?
    BG: You’ve know me for ten years.

    GG: Will you honor this agreement?
    BG: I’m a good guy. You know me.

    Both clues are present. Too many words not answering the question. No answering is mostly subconscious, but also manipulative to throw you off and at the same time avoid out right lying and give them an out if confronted later in certain situations.

    There are other indicators. And it’s not a slam dunk but I have had a LOT of luck with this simple formula. Example;

    Are you going to corporate?
    Yes.
    Do you have a gun?
    No.
    Do you have a knife?
    No.
    Did you come here alone?
    Well I always travel alone.

    Probably he has a friend near by. Developing base line questions can help establish when the lie occurs.
     
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  24. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    So true. The truth never changes. "How does this dress look on me?" Sorry, that isn't a lie. They don't want the truth. They just want confirmation. Besides, that is an opinion. How can an opinion be wrong?
     
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  25. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    Because I despise dishonesty and have zero respect for liars, I have a finely tuned BS meter and have an uncanny knack for detecting lies. In my book, even the so-called "white lies" are unacceptable.

    Unfortunately lying is so commonplace nowadays that whenever someone does something honest, such as return a lost wallet full of cash or something like that, it makes the news!

    Integrity and honesty go hand in hand and both traits are highly valued in my circle of friends and family.


    .
     
  26. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    I think farting and lying is still acceptable isn’t it Grizzlyette?
     
  27. GrizzlyetteAdams

    GrizzlyetteAdams Crap Creek Survivor
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    If ya gonna fart, don't lie and blame the dog! If you do, then required reading for you would be the book, Fart Proudly: Writings of Benjamin Franklin You Never Read in School by Benjamin Franklin and Carl Japikse

    (Ben Franklin really did write a publication titled, "Fart Proudly" which shocked the polite people of the day. He and Mark Twain had lots of fun twisting the panties of the public in a tight knot, lol.)

    b495431144775d62e161f410916f016a.jpeg


    [​IMG]
     
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  28. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    True, it isn't hard to stop making the specific movements or making the verbal tells once you know what they are. The problem is that when you do this you come off looking like a Junior High thespian with no talent playing Romeo in a play. If you come off looking untrustworthy you don't gain much with your lie.

    Good salesmen, politicians, actors and actresses and con-men don't just hide their tells. They actually have tells. The thing is that their tells are trained lies. It takes a tremendous amount of work and practice to be able to perform these false tells while still acting and reacting normally in all other ways.

    Just trying to hide your tells only makes you an obvious and bad liar. As pacmantacman pointed out above when an unskilled liar lies they generally overdo things trying to cover up and not tell a direct lie. They will do this with their physical tells too. The ability to tell a truly believable lie is an art. Politicians and actors do it by practicing a speech or their lines. A top-level conman can do it off the cuff on the spur of the moment.

    This is a fascinating subject. Another part of it has to do with cultural training and how it varies from place to place. Just as a quick example, Hispanic kids often get a bad rap for being untruthful and sort of sneaky when they are in an Anglo-dominated place. This happens because they are taught that it is rude to look an elder in the face. When scolded they are supposed to look down and accept their scolding silently. Anglo kids are supposed to look at an adult when they are talking to you especially when they are being scolded. It seems to infuriate an ignorant person when a child refuses to be respectful. These kids are being as respectful as possible. Anglo kids in a Hispanic dominate place come off as rude and brazen with no respect for their elders and no manners.

    It would be sort of nice to be able to always stick to the truth but if you do it you are going to have a hard time and be seen as an autistic person. If you want the truth THEY will give it to you...Actually, they will give it to you even when you don't want it.

    Snyper, are you married? If you are then you KNOW that truth isn't always the best way to go!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
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  29. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    You're making it much more complicated than it really is.

    Yes, and I have no reason to lie to her.

    We've known each other for about 50 years and we know each other's secrets already.

    You might have a hard time.
    That doesn't mean anything about anyone else.
     
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  30. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Snyper, you are nothing but an ignorant troll with almost NOTHING to contribute. Your posts offer nothing but one-liners telling people that they are wrong without offering a single thing other than your negitivity and ill thought bare opinions. Try offering something other than just a childish one-liner to back up your thoughts...if you can.

    Your idea of truth is a cruel and thoughtless embarrassment to all around you if you really are this ignorant or maybe autistic. White lies are a necessary part of getting along with people. Do you just blurt out whatever comes to mind? Even if it is the honest truth that sort of behavior would get you beat up a lot. I knew kids like you when I was in school. they never learned how to act right but they did learn to just be silent after enough beatings. Mostly I pity you; if what you say is true you lead a hard and lonely life.
     
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  31. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    My Dad loved to cut a loud fart in public and then would turn and scold me for being ill-mannered! I got him back later in life. I squeezed out a silent but deadly one in an elevator full of people and then loudly offered, "Damn Dad you couldn't wait until we got out of the elevator!" And then tried to distance me from him.

    In general, it seems that fart humor crosses all boundaries. Old, young, rich, poor and people from many nations can all appreciate the humor of our natural music.

    I know this is off topic but that is just how farts are. No matter what the situation a fart is always an appropriate response as long as no one can pin it on you.
     
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  32. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Back to the lie detecting and body language thing... No single thing is an absolute tell but as you watch someone their accumulated shows will give you a lot of indications of what they are feeling. One of the fascinating things is that you can sort of help people feel in touch with you by mimicking their body language in a very slight way. It is sort of like agreeing with them verbally and makes them feel more comfortable with you.

    Lawyers in big cases will hire readers to access the body language of the jurors and try to pick out the stronger personalities. the lawyer can then work those people with his body language and eye contacts when he or she is speaking to the jury.

    To some extent, all of this is little different from regular wire you up to lie detectors or voice stress analysis. An expert can get a general impression but the reality is that none of this is set in stone. Some people can beat a lie detector and anyone can learn how to make a lie detector give off unreadable false indicators. The person doing the reading knows that you are doing it and that doesn't make you look good but they can't offer a definitive reading on you.

    Body language works best when people don't know that they are being studied or watched. A politician giving a speech is also a performance in body language. Delivery and what your body is saying is about as important as what is being said. It is often interesting to go to and watch a great orator speak and then later listen to the audio of that same speech. Your response to what is said may vary significantly to what it was when you saw it delivered.

    I love to watch young men and their attempts at getting young ladies attention. Their language is the very easiest to read. Within a couple of minutes I know if they are going to be successful or shot down. I watch their"presentation and then read the lady's answer. I am a people watcher.

    Pacman Pacman, you mentioned people crossing their arms. One thing that I saw several years ago and didn't understand what it meant was when a male friend started walking around with his arms crossed when it was not cold. He would do this while walking around in a store even. I saw the same thing later when a woman that I saw pretty often started doing it. He went sort of off the wall and just left his family job and everything and never came back and the lady killed herself. I don't know what exactly that sort of thing means but I think it indicated someone under dire stress. I know if I see it again in someone that I care about I will try and help them.
     
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  33. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    My father was a professional gambler. His poker stare could burn out your eyes and suck out your soul.

    I don't have that ability to the degree that man did. When hunting, take a dog; their sense of smell is supernatural. When you know your journey will take you in amongst potential liars, take your woman.
     
  34. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Women do seem to have an almost mystical effect on liars...men in general. I think that it is part of the "Mama" power. they will just LOOK at you and you know that they aren't buying it and start to hunt another direction.

    My wife had this power and used it regularly in prison. They would try to lie to her and she would just stand there and look at them until they broke and fessed up. She has a "Church" look that makes you just know that you are near death. You know, that look your Mama would give you in Church or any public place that foretold a great trauma in your future if you didn't straighten up and act right.
     
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  35. EarlyMarksman

    EarlyMarksman Well-Known Member
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    I reckon I sorta suck at this myself. I tend to just decide whether or not to believe what someone is saying.
     
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