Long Term Wilderness Shelter

Discussion in 'Permanent Shelters' started by randyt, May 24, 2020.

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  1. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    I am looking for thoughts on a long term shelter in a forested colder location, northwoods more or less. This comes from watching a tv show called "alone". They have about every thought about shelter on this show.

    The apex is most likely a log cabin but that may not be practical in many cases.

    A debris shelter in my mind isn't really long term. I'm thinking something like a northland tilt.

    just for fun, any thoughts?
     
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  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I'm don't know what a northland tilt is, but I've always fancied something on the lines of an old British roundhouse.
     
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  3. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Randy,

    When I was getting ready to build my BOP, I learned that log cabin construction was 2 plus the cost of a wooden shack. Didn't consider the extra cost worth it.

    Just my 2 flakes of gold dust.............
     
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  4. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    this is a northland tilt
    f7a0934f5cc955c8d0b986cb47530175.png

    I've built log cabins using materials from the land that the cabin was built on. Even the tin roofing came from a old fallen down shack. Really cost not much but labor.

    I'm thinking more along the lines something built from the land using smaller materials.
     
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  5. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    I was pondering about a log cabin construction was 2 plus cost of a wooden shack. I think the wood shack costs more. Think of it this way. Logs are cut and handled and taken to a sawmill. Milled into lumber and then hauled back to the site. Then many nails or screws are used to construct the shack. There is very little thermal mass with the shack as compared to the log cabin. just thoughts..
     
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  6. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    Can you elaborate more about this........the vision.......what is longterm in the context of this. Long as in 5 years or 30 years.....or just over the harsh winter.....???

    I wish that I had taken a bunch of photos of a building on the outskirts of an abandon Alaska Gold mine town. They had set-up a wall tent, and built a log structure around the wall tent. They painted the inside of the wall tent several coats of thick white paint. A wall tent is totally habitable in the harshest winter, and easy to heat. They lack horizontal structural strength from wind.
     
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  7. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    long term like a season or two
     
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  8. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    So just so as I fully understand roughly three to five months, maybe seven months, that would likely include one winter........???

    Do you remember on the Survival Magazine forum when I was explaining my system to Grizzly'Girl......???
     
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  9. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    I didn't see that, I'll check it out.
     
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  10. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    to include at least one winter
     
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  11. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Randy,

    My cost comparison was on contractor-provided costs to me.

    I can guess log cabins are not built as frequently as these 2X4, plywood, drywall places.

    At time of decision to build a BOP was traveling 95% of the time and could not build place myself.
     
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  12. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  13. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    OK, you said that you wanted this for a long term shelter. I assume that you are talking about this as a bug out location rather than a place to live now. Based on that I offer you this advice.

    In the past people didn't live INSIDE as we do now. Their cabin was a place to allow them to sleep safely and in the winter to shelter from the cold. The only other purpose of it was to allow you to store and protect your tools and supplies. If you will look at the picture of that Northland Tilt you will note that it was not very big. We call that an A-frame cabin here. A BIG log cabin would require an incredible amount of wood and fireplaces to keep warm in the winters in a place that it gets seriously cold in the winters.

    The old dogtrot cabin had a lot to be said for it. That is basically two small rooms under one roof with an open runway through the middle. In the summer the "dogtrot in the middle or breezeway offers you a place to be out of the rain without being tightly enclosed Big windows in the cabin when you have no power make it harder to keep warm.

    In the end in the summer you will want to do most of your cooking in a slightly separated kitchen area so if the fire gets away from you it doesn't burn down your home and all of your supplies. You could also have a brush arbor that would offer you shade and that would be where you spend most of your tie in the warm months. Even in the winters except for sleeping and sheltering from storms you will spend most of your time outside. In the winter you will be working to keep plenty of wood on hand so that if you get snowed in for a while you can hunker down and stay warm.

    Almost unlimited power has allowed people to build and live in ever-larger homes. When I was a kid a middle-class house would be between 1000 and 1500 square feet with three bedrooms and one bath and an eat-in kitchen. Now they are running more along the lines of 1800 to 2000 square feet with 3 or 4 bedrooms and 2 to 3 bathrooms and a living room, den, and formal dining room. Back when I was a kid most families had 3 to 6 kids now we run more towards 1 or 2 kids. Yet our houses are a lot bigger. ???

    Our basic culture has changed. While our houses got bigger but our homes have shrunk out of existance. Both parents wrk and the kids are warehoused in daycare. With both adults working there is little time for cooking so people don't sit down at the table and eat together. One of the hardest things that people are going to have to adapt to if the world as we know it goes down is to reestablish the old ways and where people fit into things. Without daycare SOMEBODY is going to have to raise those kids. No restraunts or grocery stores means soombody has to cook and the meals will be basic and for nourihment and not the banquet that we mak every mal now.

    Your life will be simplified. You want your cabin to reflect that.
     
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  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    My input would concern your being able to keep it out of the hands of critters or inferior aggressive "humans". The moment you walk away, something takes your place. Shelter is shelter. Shelter is a universal commodity of value.

    If it is a bug-out shelter or a shelter for hunting, no matter how far away from civilization, just count on other "humans" (scummy inferiors) having claimed the place as their own. I've perpetually run into these sub-human monsters during my lifetime. Guys that hunt deer via archery still have to carry a decent firearm with them. Where I'm from, archers kill and dress a deer, then get robbed by the inbred rednecks. I'm from a place that has no shortage of inbred rednecks. Hillbillies are civilized, redneck low-breeds are not just uncivilized, they cannot be civilized. What little brains they have cannot override their glandular urges. They are utterly of no value to the Earth, mankind, nor God Himself.

    So you decide to head-out for your shelter. Mr. Bear also likes your shelter. Do you kill Mr. Bear? Me, I wouldn't kill a bear unless it had gone dangerous around humans in a human community. I would think to myself, "Great, you just did something nice for a stinky shaggy bear."

    OK, let's try this scenario on for size: Let's say your shelter is near cabin-quality. The feces has hit the fan, so you have to retreat to this place because where you currently live is no longer inhabitable due to fill-in-the-blank whatever crap. You get to your place in the woods and some human critters are there enjoying being protected from the rain and roasting some mystery meat over a fire. If anyone is semi-intelligent, they'd have used their binoculars to assess the sitrep of the location before marching on in. Your binoculars tell you that the "people" living here make Neanderthals look fabulously evolved. Tell me, do you blurt-out, "Hey, this is my place!"? Silly me, I just wouldn't do that. You could try to "make nice", then shoot them in the back of the head.

    A bit of a bother, all this. If you can't protect something, you don't own it. May be that you have land where this sort of thing rarely occurs -- that would be great! Maybe you know adjacent land owners and they are sensitive as to who they let come up into their hollar. Where my mom was from, the folk in that hollar would let me up in there, for they knew me. Were I an unfriendly, my life wouldn't have been worth a plugged nickle. If you do not have that sort of security going on for you and this land you are thinking about, I have no answer for you as what to do ... unless you have a crew who would help you wipe-out the opposition (can't just drive them off, for they'll surely return and with reinforcements). Might makes right.
    .
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  15. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    We use a tent called a Bombshelter made be Eureka Tent......in the "Alaska Professional Hunting Guide and Outfitter" industry. But there are now many quality tents. For my cache sites I use much cheaper tents, with the hope they last for three or four months. But there are several out there so if one fails, jut move to a different cache site.
     
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  16. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    I would recommend something below ground or covered with earth. Made from available materials such as logs, stone, sand bags, etc. My reasons would be warmth, security and if done correctly they are almost impossible to see and no heat signature.

    09e7cf51ffc2d60d2ddd2a07e5276a39.jpg

    Native earth shelter or Hogan.
    b641143c711f4fa41616fa38897d72c0.jpg

    Dale
     
  17. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    This is an area that is not well thought out by "Bushcrafters", unless they have actually tried to build a debris shelter with two or four feet of snow hiding all the debris, and doing it with five hours of "Semi-Daylight". I find it hard to beat a four season tent and a quality bow saw, for light portable shelter.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Below the earth allows ambient Earth-temperature to come to your aid. Too, tents offer no safety from bullets.

    My uncle, Battle of the Bulge, the men would use their explosives to crack the frozen earth to dig below ground level. German tree-top bursts were slaughtering them. Plus, the cold was eating their souls. Once they'd completed their foxholes, they'd get orders to pack up and move yet again. Half of his company was killed (not wounded, killed). Right behind where I'm sitting is his company's group photograph. I can spin my chair right now and look at the photographs of dozens of kids, they were just kids, who never lived to see age 23.

    Anything having to do with post-SHTF has to take into consideration defending wherever it is you will be positioned. Anyone imagining, "We are safe here," might as well have their casket with them.

    Should you be fairing better than others, such will be discovered. Such will be envied. With 90% plus people, morals will go straight out the window.

    Dig or build barriers.

    Building a forest retreat, count on others trying to take it or being there when you arrive. Build in weaknesses / "things you know about" that will get them killed when you and yours show up. Know the places in the structure that you can shoot through from outside. When you retake the place and do some rebuilding, then you can "patch" the once built-in flaws.

    Ground emplacements are there pretty much to stay, so dig where water will not gather and cover your dig-out. If others are occupying when you arrive, burn them out, then rebuild. You will not have to re-dig your entrenchment and that's one BIG plus.

    During your trip to your wilderness hide-out, just figure that others will be there and will have already have established a perimeter. You will have to take-out their family members or friends on the way into retaking your survival abode.

    For American preppers, it's looking more and more like we are going to have a civil war. In urban areas, there will be race wars and food/fuel wars. Slaughter is coming. Prepare.
    .
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    a British round house was built with whatever materials they could find in the area and would last 25-30 years.
    a lot of the old houses where I live were built of Cob which is a mixture of animal dung, hay or straw and mud all mixed together, this allows for very thick walls to be built. some of these houses are 200 years old and still lived in today.
    another alternative is to use square hay bales-not so common these days- to make very thick walls these are then boarded over on the outside and plastered on the inside, makes for a very warm structure.
    the Saxon's used to build houses that were part dugout, 4 feet down into the earth so that they weren't that high above ground and you stepped down into them.
    then there are places that are built using cordwood, much easier than hauling tree trunks about.
    so many ways.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      Cob is an EXCELLENT building material.
       
      Dalewick, May 25, 2020
  20. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    I was researching British round houses and those look like a really good option. The shelter I was thinking about wasn't really for a post SHTF situation but rather some one in a wilderness area with out bringing in many outside resources.

    It looks like the participants on the "alone" tv show mostly use some kind of A-frame. I don't watch the show much but have seen a few episodes.
     
  21. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    something along the lines of a cabin or A frame structure then.
    "survival lilly" on youtube did something she called a supershelter, might be worth a look.
     
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  22. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    What is the best shelter or cabin is very much a matter of location. Where I live if you dig a hole you have a pond. Without pumps to keep them pumped out basements are a constant problem and that is why there are no basements here. we don't ever have snow other than a few flurries once every few years. What you will have is long hot summers with lots of rain. In South East Texas, the usual summer weather forecast ism "Hot with locally heavy afternoon thunderstorms" these storms can be violent but unbelievably small. you can sit in your yard in the sun and see the neighbors getting drenched. There is no day of the year that you couldn't see temperatures I the high 80s to low 90s. I've gone swimming in the first week of a new year more than once.

    Here shelter in the wild is more about shade and protection from the rain and mosquitos than about warmth. For most of the year a tarp for a roof and a net to allow you to sleep without getting eaten alive is all you need. I guess that is why in the past the open middle dogtrot houses were so common. The older houses here all had one or more screened porches that were used in the summer for sleeping eating and as summertime livingrooms.

    A tent would be a great shelter for 9 or 10 months out of the year. For something more permanent an open-sided shed with a small back room for sleeping and sheltering in the coldest days would work really well. For security you could build a wall out of logs. Mosquito nets are a must all year around.
     
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  23. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Cherokee structures

    https://thecherokeenations.weebly.com/shelter.html

    Permanent structures were not so important in that there was a very wide nomadic streak in them. Game shifted, they shifted. Weather got bad, go somewhere warmer. Treaties were important to reduce the constant fighting. In the eastern part of North America, tribes formed nations. My Scots kin leased land from the Cherokee in what was called the Watauga Association. My kin owned no slaves. There were no plantations up in the mountains. When the Indians saw our log cabins and traded deer skins and other goods for iron tools, they too began building cabins, especially for special purposes and such. My lot married in with them and sold them flintlocks and other iron-works products.

    We hillbillies slaughtered British troops and British sympathizers during the Revolutionary War. My Scots lot were Republican / anti-slavery so fought for the Union during the civil war. Confederate troops attacked us and we're talking far south of the Mason-Dixon . Talk about brother against brother ... . Cherokee caught on fast, but sided with British during Revolutionary War and with Confederacy during Civil War. The Cherokee having picked the wrong side in both conflicts, spelt doom for them.

    Here's a neat council house. Cherokee often built circular structures. Cherokee seem to have always been particularly intelligent, good workers, and great soldiers.

    35673f08d9cc3b74b3d2e9b6ddf04a18.jpeg


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Tennessee_bridge_burnings

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_in_the_American_Civil_War
    .
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The Cherokee along with a few other tribes sort of merged into the anglo society and passed as "whies". Many of us carry their genes. My wife is 25% her Mother was 50%. They left the reservations in Oklahoma and passed through Louisianne and became cajun french in the passing. Until 1926 Native Americans couldn't own property in Texas.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      Hey there, careful what you say about my great grandparents. LOL! My family doesn't even know our original name. They didn't have to walk to OK or die though. I consider them the ultimate survivors. There is 3 different families in our area with the same last name and none of us related. LOL!
       
      Dalewick, May 25, 2020
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  25. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    LOL, My wifes familly is the same way. When they crossed over into Texas from Louisianna they crossed on a Ferry and that became their "White" person name.
     
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  26. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    If it is only for a couple of seasons (including a winter) I would go with a teepee/wickiup. You can probably use natural materials, free or very little cost, and some cordage. You could wrap it in stretch wrap to improve the water tight capabilities. These guys are doing it in Quebec, which should be a good test of Winter.

    Doesn't look like it would take to long to build, although some extra hands would be helpful.

     
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  27. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    I find it very interesting that we have many threads on this subject. We diligently work this question, which rarely even comes up on other forums, yet we seem to fail at establishing even a short list of quality options.

    It seems clear to me that we drift far from the original goal, and into structures intended for 50 years of usefulness.

    For myself, and my potential need, this is a question I wish we had viable answers for.
     
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  28. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    depends I think on one's definition of "long term".
     
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  29. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    The goal of this thread was established near the start. That being two seasons, one of those two needs include one winter. So one spring and one winter......or....One Fall and one winter.

    Which strangely mimics my potentially perceived need.
     
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  30. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  31. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    True......but the thread original question inquires about up north in winter.
     
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  32. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    In my neck of the woods there are some abandoned but functional old trappers and settlers cabins. While most don’t know they exist, some do. So stealth isn’t assured, but they are off any road system and they aren’t in prime recreation areas. I have a cache near a couple. One of my plans, which I haven’t fully thought through, was to hold up in one of these and either make it work, or use it as a base of operations until I come up with a better plan. I don’t have all of the answers either, so I appreciate the discussion.
     
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  33. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    One issue for us and maybe some others is snow. I generally don't check my large caches in the snow, but will wait and wait and wait till a good snow fall is coming and leave early, so tracks are filled in. Speaking of caches.......I have figured out that mice are breaching some sites. And while they are not much of a problem, they have a few times tracked food to their home, and this has been just enough to entice bears to follow the trail to the cache.
     
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  34. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    definition of "long term" does seem to vary from person to person.
    by long term I mean several years, maybe a decade or two, not a couple of seasons.
     
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