"make Climate Change Illegal"

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Pragmatist, Jul 7, 2020.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200706-the-law-that-could-make-climate-change-illegal


    Good morning all,

    Denmark has the solution: use the law. Just like protecting statues, the same body of national laws can save the climate from changing.

    Congratulations Suriname and Bhutan !

    Don't know if the 2 cows are holy.

    Need to wear white gloves for drumming.

    ......

    In a more serious tone, if electricity generation was stopped 100%, it would be a good start.

    Next: dairy farms to be phased out.
     
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  2. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Cracking idea, except for one thing - the climate changes with or without human intervention, so how would we know who's fault it was? The example I would give for this is that during the dinosaur epoch CO2 was vastly higher in terms of PPM (parts per million) than it is now. Humans clearly didn't influence that.

    Whilst I fervently believe that we do contribute to climate change, it is possible that the changes we are seeing now are the legacy of the coal age in the 19th century and we may have no direct influence within our own time period.
     
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  3. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Brownbear,

    Concur.

    I've heard from some scientists that the building of the US Interstate Highway system causes so much rain runoff that this influences the climate.

    Still, minor compared to volcanic activity.
     
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  4. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Absolutely Pragmatist and it is keeping that sense of proportion that is essential.

    The climate is changing, we know that as established scientific fact. Precisely why is the reason there is so much controversy.

    I would argue that we have a responsibility to ensure it is not us humans causing/exacerbating the problem, or at least to minimise our input to the problem. If time shows that it is beyond our control then so be it, but the rise in pollution based asthma in children within cities is something that people should actively wish to prevent or minimise - that's what decent folks do.
     
  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    there was a saying over here about climate change which stuck in my mind something along the lines of " we are the first generation to feel the effects of climate change and the last that can do anything about it".
     
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  6. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    That sums it up very well.

    Whatever measures we take now may well not have realised their effects until after we are gone. But we do have a responsibly to not treat the world like our personal dustbin and it is in our own interest to keep the air clean
     
  7. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Brownbear,

    Here is the overall real problem from the US perspective:

    When compared to India, China, Pakistan, the US physical environment is closer to the Shetland Islands.

    When the US requires less pollutant fuels, the businesses cease and either invest in financial markets or relocate overseas.

    Yesterday it was announced that Dominion Energy and Duke Energy will cancel pipeline construction efforts for energy supplies to reach the Atlantic seaboard area. The environmental litigation was too costly.

    Virginia is now "legally" bound to have 100% non-pollutant energy use in 25 years. Currently, 5% of energy use in Virginia is non-polluting. The 95% differential won't be resolved in 25 years.

    I could not enter politics with a hope for success stories.
     
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  8. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Please, anybody, name any fuel source that is not polluting.. Waiting!!! Just more words spit into the air.

    Funny thing, while doing my research, I have not found anything that granted anybody the authority to determine what MY RESPONSIBILITY was to the environment. Since there are no authorized or legally mandated individuals, to determine responsibilities, then anybody stating it is a persons responsibility to care or give a crap about the climate or environment, are just talking out their tush.
     
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  9. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Non polluting fuel - quite easy - that is any fuel that puts outs less, or the same, pollutants as it takes in. Think trees, they breathe CO2, when burnt release a similar amount of CO2 - there is your answer.

    You have to decide whether it's your responsibility or whether it's any body else's, or even if it makes a difference if you do or don't - I don't give a monkeys either way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
    1. TMT Tactical
      What about all the pollutants created in harvesting the tree's? Transporting the harvested trees? Then of course the wood smoke added to the environment. There is no such thing as a NON-Polluting fuel.

      As for Responsibilities, that was my driving point, it is not your call to decide who is responsible for anything, except for yourself.
       
      TMT Tactical, Jul 10, 2020
  10. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    What you have outlined here is the core of the problem - an opportunity to make money has been spotted and, as a result, any physical actions have become too expensive to be viable - hence it goes to somewhere cheaper (I feel that this is the disease of the western world and we should review where our stuff comes from, how we buy it etc). Added to which, as I said earlier, changes take a huge amount of time, but here we see legislation forced through more quickly in comparison than any meaningful changes can be made.

    I like to measure it out in terms of trees. Well managed woodland can easily provide 100% carbon neutral energy sources, so we can decree today that from tomorrow we'll all use use wood from sustainable forestry. Unfortunately it will take the lifespan of the trees within that forest to reach the point where we can actually realise a carbon neutral state, so we'll all be dead and gone before it happens. That leaves us in the situation where we have no incentive in a modern business environment to invest beyond our achievable means (why, if we'll never see it come to fruition? We'd never even know if the work paid off). But the bills for the legislation require paying now, so we are pushed from potential profit into the a theoretical loss making situation and, obviously, it would be entirely foolish to pursue such a course. So we are left with small plots and small groups of individuals working at it primarily for the love of it, which is great for them but does not fit the big picture.

    Also you, so rightly, mention China, Pakistan etc, countries who have barely any legislation and are, hence, easily able to undercut the western world in these matters where money is concerned, and let's face that is what it's all about at the end of the day.
     
  11. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...f-zero-carbon-electricity-hasnt-set-a-2050-go


    Good morning Brownbear,

    Above link is a somewhat decent article on fuel and the environment.

    Do note that large wars are not discussed.

    A favorite book of mine is Oswald Spengler's 1918 "The Decline of the West".

    The US economy is just a contemporary and very large version of toll booths (castles) on the Rhine River.

    A big aspect neglected in discussing US policy on the big items is - employment - . Combine this with the new US political doctrine "too big to fail". If real market economics were used, there would be massive insurrections within the US.

    I hate to rely on a point made by a US socialist, but must. William Jennings Bryan posed the rhetorical question how can someone or some business contract with a foreign state trading company ?

    A major question that cannot be asked in polite American society is what side won the Cold War ?

    So far wheeler and dealer President Trump has kept the US afloat and there's no war on the European landmass or east Asia -
    at least as of now. As long as the US holds the Trump card - - - we will win the poker game.
     
  12. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    The page link is a 404 "not found" so I guess it's been deleted.
     
  13. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    BB, have you taken a vow of poverty? If not, you ARE a part of a capitalist society. Even socialist countries are part of a capitalist society. Nobody works or lives for free.

    Getting back to your tree analogy. Wood is not a viable power source and certainly is not carbon neutral as a power source. Roads have to be created to get to the forest to harvest the wood, pollutant from road building equipment. Cutting trees--- chain saw exhaust pollutant. Loading equipment exhaust, pollutant. Transport to lumber processing plant, exhaust pollutant. Lumber mill --- power requirement pollutants. Transport of wood product to power plant -- exhaust pollutant. Power plant exhaust --- pollutant. It is easy to claim a product is pollutant free, until you account for the entire process. Solar is clean until you take into account the entire process to build and install the solar system. Even whale oil (no drilling and use sailing vessels) was not carbon neutral. It required fuel to process the whale oil. Economic has and will always drive / determine what fuels we use.

    NOTE: No fuel source has ever been depleted, since the beginning of time. That is the good news for preppers, if or when we return to basic living, all the natural fuel sources will still be available. The other benefit, we will no longer care or give a rat's azz about it polluting. We will only care about it being available.
     
  14. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    That is sort of like passing a law making pi 3 instead of 3.14159... To make it easier to figure. This was actually proposed once!
     
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  15. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    You're wrong about wood - what you are saying about infrastructure is correct, but wood is sustainable. If you live within a small wooded area, it is 100% sustainable to manage that wood properly as a carbon neutral resource. If it is a commercial logging situation, then no. Your statement was that there is no non polluting fuel source, which was incorrect. My response was to show you there there is a non polluting fuel source. The issue with sustainability is that we are placed in a society where we can live within sustainable means. It would be nice if we were, that's for sure, but we're not.

    We are all part of a capitalist society even, as you say communism is really capitalism (just state driven rather than privately driven). No I've not taken a vow of poverty at all. I like to live within my means, which might be considered unusual by some today, but that's personal choice.
     
  16. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I just wanted to pick up this point TMT, this is how I see personal responsibility:

    I see personal responsibility for the environment as something we should all engage with. This does not have to do with "saving the planet" but for our own health and wellbeing. An example scenario I will give is (back to those wretched trees again) is that you own a small wood, in which you have a cabin etc. You use the wood for fire, repairing your house etc. It would would be foolish to chop the whole wood down and burn it in the first winter, as ever after you would have to rely someone else for wood. Asides of the cost you have then become dependant on another for your wellbeing. They can fix the price and make you pay dearly. They can sell you poor quality wood, they can determine when they want to deliver to you, effectively they have gained an amount of control over you, and so it goes on. In this case it is clear to see that it would have better to be responsible in one's use of resources and maintain control of them.

    Another thought would be that a sensible person would not defecate on their doorstep, there are good reasons of hygiene not to do so. But, so often business do exactly that. Their workers live in dirty industrial areas, yet I can guarantee that the owners live way away from any pollution themselves.

    These two examples are of how I would demonstrate personal responsibility. Scaled up to the levels of large business, that responsibility is so often neglected for profit, or more accurately for more profit (ie greed).

    There is a also powerful argument for purchasing goods made within your own country, so for example of you live in the US, buy a Maglite or a Leatherman not a Chinese copy that has come thousands of miles over the ocean. This way you support your own Country's economy, your own country's workers jobs (all of whom pay taxes that come back to benefit your own country). But how many people do this? So many people buy the cheapest, regardless of where to came from (I also think there is a case for patriotism, which is why I have used the US as an example of a country connected to two companies who products are highly thought of throughout the world). The by-product of this is to minimalise transportation, and hence the costs to you, the end consumer, but also to minimalism pollution from ocean going cargo ships (which are currently one of the more polluting forms of transport). There is also a fuel saving so, hopefully oil will last that bit longer too.

    I do not agree with the huge amounts of environmental laws that are continually introduced at vast cost to not only business, but to the end consumer. That in itself has, I believe, become an opportunistic money making machine. But if left unfettered many businesses would act, through greed and selfishness, as one who defecates on your doorstep.

    So, as you see, I believe personal responsibility is a choice we make, through our own actions. If it saves the planet (I am not even sure that planet actually needs saving, I think it will be just fine, only that we may not be here to enjoy that). Also, when it comes down to the wire I would say there no atheists in a liferaft/no starving vegans in a famine, we will all compromise our views when needs prevail.

    If you think taking personal responsibility for your own environment is me talking out of my tush, I'd recommend defecating on your doorstep and seeing how you get on, I figure you'll be annoyed with it pretty quickly (and me for suggesting it) ;)
     
  17. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    See you miss the point AGAIN. YOU do not have the right or authority to decide what anybody else's responsibility should be. And like most misinformed people, you choose to select cherry picking point. Yes if you live in a forest and use stone ax, then the forest might be a carbon neutral just for you and that depends on the amount of trees you need to cut and burn to stay warm, build shelter and cook your food. Wood is not a viable national fuel. As for wood / forest, go back and review how the forest was depleted in the past and wood had to be brought in from more distant locations. That process required the culture to shift from wood (a dwindling fuel) to something more economical. None of these fuel shifts have ever had anything to do with protecting the environment and everything to do with economics. Energy will always be based on economics, not environmental wishes.

    Yes, you deciding what my personal responsibility is towards the environment, is you talking out your azz. You are free to decide what YOUR responsibility towards the environment or anything else but not anybody else's responsibility.
     
  18. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the only reason for dwindling wood supplies is a growing population, in some countries "slash and burn" is a common way of clearing the land for agriculture, the fact that the trees hold the ground steady is lost on them, after a year or two the top soil blows away and the ground is useless so they move to another location and repeat the process, they learn nothing by the experience, at one time the whole of Britain was covered in trees, in fact near me Dartmoor was once covered in trees but were removed by stone age man for this new fangled way of living called farming.
    the same is now happening in the Amazon, again the fact that the Amazon in particular and trees in general are "the lungs of the planet" seems to be lost on many.
     
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  19. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Brownbear,

    If I may "modernize" your examples to TMT above;

    If someone has a cabin in a small wooded area, it is sometimes advantageous to use ALL wood for fuel within 12 months if the cabin owner knows the prognosis say he/sh/it other has only 12 months to live. In the US it is sometimes best not to inherit real estate. The taxes can economically destroy a young prospective inheritor.

    Industrial businesses must compete with other industrial businesses not having the costs of pollution abatement, waste disposal, etc. Without product sales, the US company approaches insolvency. We experienced this in 1975 eg Chrysler Corp, Lockheed Acft Co, (They were bailed out by USG). After the unemployment insurance accounts get depleted the insolvent company's labor force will riot. There will be deaths. I am writing about suppressed US labor history.

    Large US businesses sometimes avoid "responsibility" for more profits so as to avoid lethal dangers. Again, review US labor history. It got worst after JFK allowed the public sector to unionize. Guess who inspects the mines. There is a reason the US (and UK) lost most of the flag fleet - known as the world's safest, cleanest, healthiest maritime labor, ......

    Buying products of one's own country does not necessarily further one's own country. The USG allowed the US steel industry to shrink with the differential shifting to South Korea - and a parallel situation with auto manufacturing shifting to Japan - for the benefit of the USG and the US citizen. US planners needed to keep these 2 nations in the Western camp and out of the Second World bloc. (Trump is changing this and that's a reason he's hated so much.)

    Review why Boeing, Chicago relocated major component assembly manufacturing to China. It helped split the USSR-PRC alliance. In overall effect, this benefits the US citizen/worker. It's better to have a reduced standard of living than being dead from warfare.

    Who has personal responsibility for the disabled ? for the teenage mother who is on the second morning bottle of sloe gin ? the recent immigrant who comes from a society where it's accepted to throw garbage out the window ? the jet-set college kid who does not care about beer cans left on the beach or trail ?

    Was there a reason the US companies relocated to the Middle East for oil acquisition ? The UK companies are at the same places.
     
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  20. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I have and am not telling anyone anything, I have not missed the point at all and , frankly, I find the use of capitals the equivalent of someone shouting in my face.

    I resent you claiming I am uninformed, especially when you have chosen to be so damnably rude. You persist in accusing me of talking out of my "azz", which quite frankly I would not dream of saying to you, so you will forgive me for no longer wishing to engage with you in the future, and believe me, right now I feel that is no loss for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
    1. TMT Tactical
      Are you offended, go find your safe space.
       
      TMT Tactical, Jul 11, 2020
  21. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    What the Leftists don't get is that to run a nation it takes unimaginable amounts of energy.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/201794/us-electricity-consumption-since-1975/

    "End use of electricity in the United States totaled 3.99 trillion kilowatt hours in 2019, a decrease from the previous year."

    Natural gas:

    https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=43035

    "U.S. natural gas consumption increased by 3% in 2019, reaching a record of 85.0 billion cubic feet per day (Bcf/d), according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) recently released Natural Gas Monthly. New natural gas-fired electric capacity and lower natural gas prices led the increase in domestic natural gas consumption."

    Leftists and tree-huggers live in Never-Never Land.

    The USA must go nuclear power. We can then do perpetual research into reactors that are much more clean than breeder reactors. These new type reactors do exist, however their costs are high. This can and must be done. Cleaner reactors WILL be developed. Meanwhile there are geophysically safe rock formations wherein nuclear waste can be stored for tens of thousands of years.

    https://www.dw.com/en/sweden-plans-first-ultimate-storage-site-for-nuclear-waste/a-14935527

    There will always be neurotic children who protest.
    .
     
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  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    In America, electric cars are powered by the burning of coal. In the SouthWest, they are powered by natural gas being burned.

    Think windmills will be creating enough electricity to run these electric cars? Then obviously, Don Quixote was a great knight.
    .
     
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  23. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    One thing few talk about doing is regulating and banning volcanoes. Volcanoes are possessed of extreme audacity. Seems like whenever they decide to blow-up, they just do. They fill out no Request to Erupt forms; they just go off like some cow dumping manure in a field. Disgusting and dangerous, I tell you!

    And volcanoes screw-up the atmosphere, no less. There need to be laws regulating volcano activity! Register them, then ban them!

    https://scied.ucar.edu/shortcontent/how-volcanoes-influence-climate
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Global warming is inconvenient and a problem...an Iceage can be a world-ending problem. Global warming may mean that the wheat fields of the future in North America may be in Canada. An ice age may mean that all of Canada and a half or more of the USA is uninhabitable. We are entering a solar period where ice age is more likely than ongoing global warming. All of this though becomes beside the point if we allow our insanity to lead to us killing the majority of the people ourselves.

    PS: Along with banning volcanos we need to put no trespassing signs in orbit to keep the comets and other big space junk from coming here.
     
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  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    A sulfurous idea:

    https://www.technologyreview.com/2013/02/08/84239/a-cheap-and-easy-plan-to-stop-global-warming/

    We have been using scrubbers in coal-fired electric generating plants for decades now to remove sulfur.

    https://sciencing.com/do-scrubbers-do-smoke-stacks-5004709.html

    I worked the electronics industry that made the controllers for these scrubbers. Once scrubbed, coal exhausts from these massive chimneys shoot FAR higher into the atmosphere and deliver their other toxins into atmospheric levels you don't EVEN want these toxins. At higher altitudes, these gasses are carried all around the planet.

    Do-gooders, do evil. They are just too stupid and immature to understand.

    Back when China was growing industrially, they built a new coal-fired electrical generating plant per every two weeks = 26 coal-fired plants a year. Now that China is receding in industrial output, the plant-building has slowed to a crawl. They could stop, actually. China has entire newly built cities going uninhabited.

    Here is a pre-covid article:
    https://allthatsinteresting.com/chinese-ghost-cities
    .
     
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  26. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good evening TexDanm,

    I'm somewhat looking forward to this new Ice Age. Hopefully some areas of far north Canada will allow for the growing of buckwheat, for a favorite bread of mine .

    Am now in the mood for some warm weather pumpernickel bread (orig from Westphalia) and that Canadian apple juice that fermented and then distilled.

    ......

    It's slightly humid here at this section of Hurricane Alley.
     
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  27. Pragmatist

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    Good evening Old Geezer,

    At the ghost city article, the mentioned Shenzhen, bordering Hong Kong, is part of a bigger story. Shenzhen + 8 other cities of mainland plus Macao and HK are being formed into the Pearl River Delta economic zone. HK's housing problem is thus solved. This new metro area will be mostly car free and have jobs currently not available in HK.

    The area is BIG and the HK-Macao bridge/road is already built.

    The Americans know this area from the annual Canton trade fair.
     
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    1. Old Geezer
      Maybe the once-free people of Hong Kong do not wish to drop their pants and bend over for the raping communists of China.
       
      Old Geezer, Jul 11, 2020
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  28. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  29. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good evening Old Geezer,

    SIDEBAR: Actually, only people in HK "free" were from rich families. This was a / the major reason for the riots; not an extradition treaty.

    The UK's immigrant paradise generates the question of who really runs immigration policy and its management. Does the UK need unskilled labor.

    Residential housing built in green zones is one thing. The other thing is how will the resident pay for the place ? Low-paying employment - presuming employed - probably will no.
     
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  30. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Are you saying that the only people in Honk Kong who knew freedom were "rich families"? Sounds like the communist phrase, "oppressor capitalist" to me.

    It is not my belief that the middle classes and lower classes of Hong Kong were slaves. It IS my belief that the people of China who are NOT communist party members are slaves. They do as they are told and say what they are told to say, else they end up in prison or shot dead.

    Chinese medical school students who got out of that communist "utopia" told us that if they needed cadavers at their school, a call was made to a local prison, and then some cadavers would show up.

    3147189f6eac4119c319cefe1ac3272b.jpeg
     
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  31. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good evening Old Geezer,

    Not saying that. Am saying the matter was/is economic pressure and economic freedom. Anyone in HK can read the Herald Tribune, People's Daily, the British tabloids, the Russian papers, ...

    Without funding sources - most will not be from employment, housing impoverishes those of the middle and lower economic classes.

    Most Chinese in mainland are not in CPC and not slaves. Yes, they have extensive restrictions when compared to the US and western Europe, but this is not new in China even well prior WWI.

    Medical schools getting priority for cadavers: common - until the organ transplant program started. Not a new matter in Middle Kingdom.

    Can't comment on the picture. Would need year, location, some event info. The picture is not strange; it's common enough throughout much of the world.
     
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  32. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "Medical schools getting priority for cadavers: common - until the organ transplant program started. Not a new matter in Middle Kingdom."

    What the med student was telling us was that when they requested cadavers, the prison killed that many prisoners and sent the still-warm bodies to the med school / hospital. In China, med students live / have quarters within the teaching hospital.

    "Most Chinese in mainland are not in CPC and not slaves. Yes, they have extensive restrictions when compared to the US and western Europe, but this is not new in China even well prior WWI."

    The Chinese do what they are told. They submit. That is slavery. Our Founding Fathers killed for a whole lot less. So would I. Oh, and 3,000,000 Americans bought guns last month. To own a firearm in China, you must ask the government's permission -- even communist lackeys are denied.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackke...ims-into-forced-labor-factories/#50daede744e5

    https://www.socialmediaasia.com/202...icizing-the-governments-response-to-covid-19/

    https://www.hngn.com/articles/22937...-criticized-countrys-coronavirus-response.htm

    https://summit.news/2020/05/15/repo...r-questioning-official-coronavirus-narrative/

    4d9355278599276da3bdb4f2d8ba7a8d.jpeg
    .
     
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  33. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Old Geezer,

    Yes, what you were told was correct - basically. All do not live within the teaching hospital.

    I accept your use of a specific definition of "slavery". I accept. The clarification needed.

    "True freedom" is not clear enough to view for comparison eg Egypt, Turkey, Brazil and some other large population countries.

    The Guangdong Province (basically old Canton Province w/o Hainan) labor force from owners, executive management downward to the rest have a higher standard of living than counterparts in the West. It is also a rising standard of living.

    I've lived in China and by request once taught English to Medical Doctors at a nearby med school. Forbes isn't even in the running for being an authority on China. Check Boeing China, Inc or ESSO Eastern.
     
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