Mankinds Competition

Discussion in 'Hunting / Fishing / Trapping' started by TexDanm, Feb 9, 2020.

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  1. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Just an off the beaten path thought but what do you think if going to happen to all the exotic animals both in the zoos and those that are privately owned. I have personally known a couple of people that own big cats. One had a tiger and the other had a pair of pet lions. I’ve had malamute huskies that weighed a hundred pounds which are sweet dogs…to their family but might be one of the few dogs that could possibly survive going feral with little problem.

    Places like Great Brittan have not had large predators for a long time but escaped big cats could become a problem in a place that doesn’t have the weapons to deal with them as common possessions. I would hate to have to deal with something like that with a rabbit gun.

    Even the dogs are going to be a problem for a little while. Feral dogs are more dangerous than wolves because they have no instinctive fear of man. I can’t imagine much that would be more dangerous than a pack of big dogs like German shepherds, Doberman pinchers, Rottweilers, hounds or pit bulls that are starving and vicious. I’ve seen this and they will take down a full-grown hog or a pretty big calf in a flash. We’ve had to hunt and kill packs of feral dogs several times. We have a lot of big hunting dogs here and a pack of hog dogs could be deadly if they were left alone without human guidance.

    After a few generations, some of the cattle breeds are going to return to the wild state and will not be friendly. The ones with big horns are going to have little trouble adapting. We have a lot of longhorn cattle and brahmin cattle here that are already pretty well able to take care of themselves.

    When people stop actively hunting predatory animals, they can make a return fast. I watched this happen here with the gators. They went from endangered species to an infestation in a very short time. They never were all that endangered here but now they are everywhere. Fortunately, our gators mostly have manners. I think that is because even when they were protected species, they would still often end up on the table so they never did lose their fear of people.

    After a while, if indeed we lose 90% of our population, man’s place on the food chain won’t be as secure as it has been for many centuries. Any time a place in the ecosystem opens up something is going to move in and fill that space. We have displaced the big predators in most places to the point that they are endangered but wipe out a lot of people and they will make a fast comeback. I can assure you that the polar bears that the greenies are always worried about will happily fill in for us as will the grizzly bear, the wolves, and the mountain lions.
     
  2. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    How many moderate to big cities don't have at least one zoo? I think the answer is none. Let a virus loose that decimates the population quickly and some do-gooder is going to let the zoo animals loose, so they don't starve. Wild dogs are going to be a huge problem. As TD, pointed out, the dogs won't have natural fear of man. Any surviving PETA folks are going to get a real rude awaking when they try to pet that wild FIDO. Any quick acting major SHTF event, is going to let loose the dogs of war and the canine worlds. We are already reading about feral dogs attacking people, wait until these critters can't scavenge for food. The good folks working at the animal shelters will turn loose these poor starving critters, only to be eaten by them later on. Natures predators will make a comeback as well as their prey. The wild critters will flourish and the domesticated critters will become wild.
     
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  3. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    My thought re exotic animals.

    Virginia has new laws requiring licensees (possession requires registration, an annual inspection and fee for Dept of Animal Control oversight) to have evacuation arrangements in place - just like having horses. Licensees can be ordered (Dept Animal Control has LE status here) to relocate exotic animals to designated emergency animal shelter site or other arrangement(s). There are costs involved.

    I am not up to date on livestock but believe emergency requirements must be in place to protect the creatures and also public health. Arrangements must be in place to handle dead livestock.

    Rabbit guns out; irritant gases in.

    Dogs can be controlled - not 100% but close enough. Dogs, cattle, the other pending problems just might experience how the bison/buffalo fared.

    The BIGGEST danger is still the mosquito.
     
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  4. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    Britain is supposed to have a lot of wild cats let loose in the 60s when the exotic animals licencing was introduced, then there are wild boar that were released by the Animal Liberation nutters from farms and now they are everywhere, not that anyone has ever seen or been approached by either of these animals, only very grainy photos taken at a long distance which could be of anything, wild animals will avoid humans as we are very noisy creatures and they are long gone by the time we get where they were.
    we have Mink that were released or escaped, mink farming was a big thing back in the 60s-I had a school friend who's father bred them, but I don't know anyone who has ever seen them.
    I agree feral dogs MAY become a problem post SHTF but many will die indoors not able to get out.
    Dairy cattle will die in the field or in the barns if they are not milked, within a week of the event.
    beef cattle and sheep will force a way out of fields if they can find a weak spot, sheep are very good escape artists as I know by personal experience.
    the nearest zoo is Bristol and that is 110 miles by road-not that a wild animal would travel by road!!! these places are secure so they would have to be let loose by the staff- but would they? the zoo is in the middle of a big city (population 463,400- that's a lot of free meals)and they would put a lot of people at risk if they did, long before the animals got here-if indeed they came in this direction(Wales is a lot closer- its only 44 miles from Bristol to Cardiff)).
     
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  5. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    It is an interesting thought. If it ever really came to that, a true TEOTWAWKI situation, how many dangerous predators would be released? I would love to ask that question of the people who manage the zoos? Would you unleash a large predator on the population, or would you euthanize it humanely? They, the Zoo people, have to live in the world also. They of all people should know it would be foolhardy to release large cats and bears into the general population. I would think things like snakes or rodents would be even worse.

    I don't know how long it would take, but nature would find a balance. Predators will thrive for a time, but once the food source is reduced, so will the population of predators.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      Morgan, don't be too surprised here in the states at how many large predators will be roaming after a SHTF event. I have a large cat rescue facility not that far away and it has had several large cats escape already. The hunter that had a African lion walk up on him, needed a change afterward. Some states like, Ohio have "0" restrictions on owning or selling exotic animals (including lions, tigers, leopards and bears, oh my!).
       
      Dalewick, Feb 11, 2020
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  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Where I live this question goes even further because of the prisons that we have here. Most if let out wouldn't be an especially big problem but in most prisons, there is a segregation wing filled with human animals that would be worse than letting tigers out. The word is that they will die there.
     
  7. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I too am close to a prison. It is a concern. Which way would they go; East to go back into the city or West to get out of Dodge? We are East, and too close for comfort. Hoping it never comes to that, but prepared if it does.
     
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  8. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Huntsville Texas is the home of the Texas Prison System and has 9 big prisons in the area. Most of them don't worry me in them are going to haul ass out to be anywhere but here if released. The two exceptions are a maximum-security unit and Death Row. The men in those will die there. These are the ones that can only be kept from killing or injuring other people by keeping them in a cage 23 hours a day and alone even when they are allowed out.

    My wife and Daughter between them have nearly 40 years in the prison system. The general population is mostly made up of people that are just too stupid to be free. They are not all that dangerous. In Texas the animals are kept in cages and the rest have jobs and work just like regular people do. They go to school if they don't have a high school diploma and learn all sorts of trades. The trustees live in dorms that are not even fenced in. My wife worked death row maximums security prisons for about half of her 25 years and even there she never was attacked or bothered in any physical way. The TV version of prisons isn't really the way it is for most of the inmates. It isn't fun but it isn't the constant hell that TV and movies make it.

    Dogs are already a problem in the rural places. they charge if you try to bring a dog to the pound so people dump them. It's sad, dogs can't live without human care. The ones that we have had to kill often have mouths that are snow-white because they are so worm-infested and anemic that they are dying a slow miserable death. Wolves and coyotes know how to eat certain grasses and such to keep themselves healthy but dogs no longer have that instinct. They may eat grass but not the right ones.

    Dogs, when they go feral, are totally different from wolves and coyotes. A wolf or coyote may kill your livestock for food. Dogs will chase and kill a calf for fun and then don't even know how to eat off of them. Dogs, even good pets, are actually not anything like being a tame wolf. They are too often psychotic and not very smart. this isn't a problem as long as they are kept as pets but when dumped they can become killers. For example a friend lost an occasional chicken to a fox, coyote or raccoon. Then one night a feral dog got into the hen house and killed them ALL, 36 chickens. He wasn't feeding it was just that he had an instinct to hunt and kill but then didn't know to stop or what to do with them even though he was starving.
     
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  9. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Interesting question. While working for USDA/ADC (Animal Damage Control) I trapped and hunted a lot of different predators. Feral dogs are close to the top of my list for species that will kill you PDQ. I've killed several packs for endangering human life and killing livestock, and got put up a tree by 2 different packs. Feral dogs are terrible killers as they don't have the instincts or experience to kill cleanly as wild canines do, so they just bite , slash and tear where ever they grab. I've seen them tear cattle to shreds and be eating on the live animal while it lays there dying from blood loss and shock.

    Pragmatist, I would recommend extreme caution to anyone trying to use irritants (pepper spray, mace, etc.) against large cats. The may be big, but they are super fast. If there watching you, they can out jump the spray stream. I believe this is the reason spray still isn't popular in countries that have man eaters. I have never witnessed it but I've been told it often will not deter an attack but will embolden the animal due to the pain inflicted.

    I'll still focus more on the 2 legged predators after a major SHTF event, than the 4 legged variety. Because velociraptors are dangerous man. LOL!

    301857cbcdca960a801fa91a9d64f979.jpg

    Dale
     
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    we don't have the natural predators in the UK that you have in the US, no bears, no wolves.
    there was a scheme to reintroduce wolves to Scotland but I don't think it ever happened.
    we do have a few beavers on a couple of rivers in England though.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      lonewolf, there is a tunnel under the channel to France, is there not?
       
      Dalewick, Feb 11, 2020
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  11. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    yes, the British end is at Dover. it is well Policed.
     
    1. Dalewick
      I hoped it was. I would also think it would fill up with water fairly quickly if people aren't around to take care of it? Otherwise it would be a fast avenue to England for wildlife in Europe. 4 legged and 2 legged. Was thinking Iberian wolves and brown bears that will expand there territories quickly after humans aren't around to interfere.
       
      Dalewick, Feb 11, 2020
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  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    no animal has got through it yet, neither have any refugees-except hidden in the back of trucks.
    I would think without regular maintenance it would fill up with water fairly quickly.
     
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  13. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    All those feral animals are edible too.
     
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  14. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Dale,

    Appreciate the alert re big cats and irritant gas use.

    A couple here are skilled with the fogger sprays.
     
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  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The thing about the big cats that we have in the US like the mountain lion is that you don't usually see them until they pounce. They are ambush predators rather than pursuit preditors. Along the line of this discussion though African lions and tigers are different in their methods altogether. For those, I think that I would almost rather have an air horn than pepper spray. I wonder if the bear spray that I've read about is a more powerful spray than the regular people spray? Best of all would be a 12 gauge with alternating slugs and buckshot.

    I wonder if people get thinned out what ALL might become more out and about. The list of cryptids is huge and I have to wonder if they are all just imaginary monsters. LOL, your velociraptor makes me think of a critter here called the Texas T-Rex. People have reported and even got blurry pictures of a 6' tall two-legged reptilian critter. The part of Texas that I live in is sort of like parts of Washington State with lots of heavily forested lands and bigfoot sighting.
     
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  16. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon TexDanm,

    Interesting distinction re ambush versus pursuit big cat predators.

    Merci.

    Do you know of any vet / medical info on both categories when infected with rabies ? Although we don't have big cat wildlife here, the rabies matter still gets my attention. Someone can bring and release here a pink panther or a Tony the Tiger. This is a corridor area.
     
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  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Rabies is seldom a problem with cats. I think that it is because they climb trees to avoid fights with anything but another cat. I'm not sure that it might not be sort of true with the big cats. They seldom "fight" outside of their species. When they kill it isn't a fight and nothing preys on big cats. All of this except the part about regular cats is conjecture. The BIG carrier of rabies here is the skunk.
     
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  18. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    Info appreciated. Merci.
     
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  19. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Its about time someone portray velociraptor accurately instead of using Jurassic Park portrayal. Albeit those raptors in the picture are too big
     
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  20. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I don't care what size they are, i'm just glad they aren't around now.
     
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  21. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning all,

    My view is that this is a case where size does matter.

    The big creatures can be readily seen.

    My fear is rabid bats and mosquitoes.

    The human species 3 main natural predators are:

    1. mosquito
    2. human species
    3. fresh water snail
     
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  22. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    same here Texdanm….and racoons..


    Around here they do not want you trapping, transporting, and releasing racoons.....for that reason...sickness..

    I trap them on occasion...marshmallows...... when they get too numerous and then put them down with a .22 short...or .22 pellet rifle up close.

    https://www.amazon.com/Duke-0510-Coon-Trap-Pack/dp/B00P4HHZ0C/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1UWJNSQBG30D2&dchild=1&keywords=duke+raccoon+trap&qid=1581522089&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=duke+racoon+,sporting,139&sr=1-2

    The larger ones can get an attitude real fast......and don't ever be a touchy feely humanitarian and try to release them from this trap.....while live...they will eat you up...bad news.....

    So far...I've not caught a skunk in these traps...I'd have to put them down from afar...very afar...but they are around here......just not as much as racoons. Thank goodness.


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
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  23. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    There used to be a comedy record about a guy that went up a tree to get personal with a coon. I think that the name of the story was, Knock him down, John. When I was a teenager we used to run the coons at night for fun. We didn't kill them just chased and ran the hounds. We treed one and so I went up the tree to chase him down, Yes, I did that and let me tell you a big boar coon, once he has had enough, is a MONSTER! I was trying to get the hell down out of that tree without falling and breaking my neck OR letting that coon chew my face off. I hit the ground about a half-second before the coon. He had ENOUGH and so proceeded to kick the dog's asses and then chase all of us out of his woods! I don't know what he was running from in the first place. If he wasn't interested in our game he should have just told us to leave him alone in the beginning.
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I don't mind the bats. they eat mosquitos so they are my friends. I have often thought that if mankind ever falls the worst threat might be from the small creatures that we don't think of a lot now because we control them with poisons and traps. We have an invasive species in Texas and much of the South called a Fire Ant. I have seen them take over a pasture and have mound ever 8 or 10 feet. They nearly wiped out any birds or small animals that nest on the ground. DDT knocked them down but then the DDT caused cancer issues and was banned. since then there has been an ongoing war as we try to control them. When they are in a pasture if a cow drops a calf and it is close to a mound the ants can kill the calf before it can get on its feet.

    I wonder what it will be like ten years after people stop controlling them? You can't live with them. They will find you and try to eat you! Their bite/sting is excruciating. I wonder what other tiny monsters are out there that we don't consider now because they are controlled and not an issue as long as we keep their numbers under control.
     
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  25. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  26. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    We've got fire ants here also. As soon as I noticed their visitation, I did more than a "No Trespassing" sign.

    It's the - rabid - bats that are scary.

    Believe they consume 2 and a half times their weight in mosquitoes per day/night.
     
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  27. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Wrong in both accounts.

    First of all size does matter, a 3 Kg cat and 100 Kg cat behave exactly the same, however their size difference made all the difference in their potential lethally.

    Secondly, dinosaurs (including velociraptor) still exist today, albeit we human domesticate them in large number (as in industrial scale), and most people doesn't realize they were basically the offspring of velociraptor.

    Trust me you do not wan't those domesticated dinosaur offspring to grow larger than they are currently now.
     
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  28. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    as what? I thought dinosaurs evolved into birds.
     
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  29. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    As this

    ada03980b04af1919bf1c1dabb19ff63.jpeg
     
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  30. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    a rooster you mean? I know they can give a nasty peck but a raptor, really?
     
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  31. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    More and more they are coming to understand that the raptors were most likely birds in the early stages of evolution. Birds are not dinosaurs but some of the "dinosaurs may have been birds. There were toothed birds in South America that were HUGE predatory monsters. They lasted until the ice-age allowed mammal predators to come over the Aleutian land bridge. I suspect that what the big cats didn't get that man did and finished them off. I'm quite content to not have those things to worry about. There ARE reports of a "BIG bird and even a feathered Texas T-rex out in the West Texas Desert.

    1f08f86e8a7bb5f1966b257b942b6002.png
     
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  32. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    To think of it, all big cats is actually recent species (in term of geological timescale).
     
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