Many weapons

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by Jason, Jan 17, 2016.

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  1. Paxxis

    Paxxis Active Member
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    Keith, thank you. Will check it out! :)
     
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  2. Para173

    Para173 Well-Known Member
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    If I were British, I would join a British WW2 re-enactors' group and get myself .303 bolt action SMLE rifle done up as a sniper rifle with a 4 power scope on it. Once I got the rifle, scope and ammo, I would keep them tucked away in a secure place at my home. I would break out my WW2 uniform, gear and sniper rifle for re-enacting at least two times a year and keep photos EVERY single time I went out to show off as a British Army sniper. I would have an album full of my reenactor photos with dates, times and locations printed on them. I would also have two bolts for the rifle. One with and one without a firing pin in it. When I was out in public I would keep the bolt without the firing pin in the rifle. When I could, I would take the rifle to a legal firearms club or range and zero it on occasion so that it was dead on for at least 150 meters, maybe 2oo meters. That should give you a HUGE edge over just about everybody over there and keep you legal too.
     
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  3. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    The .303 was always zeroed at 25yards!
    That gave you a close rising zero and a falling zero at 250yds
    Very handy out to 300m
     
  4. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    I have been to a couple of re-enactors events, not WW2 but civil war, that's the English civil war, I am very interested in the "living history" camps, how people lived day to day, but they tend to be small scale events in the South West, the English civil war ENDED in the south west so that is why we tend to get them down this way.
    I haven't come across any WW2 groups as yet.
     
  5. Para173

    Para173 Well-Known Member
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    I was talking about the scope being zeroed for 200 meters/yards or so. The metal sights should be zeroed at 25 meters, agreed. Be the first kid on your block with a sniper SMLE for WW2 re-enacting as a sniper and, if things go bad, personal protection should the need arise. If your scope is zeroed for 200 meters, that gives you a really HUGE advantage over all the other kids, so to speak. Sort of like being able to control 2 blocks length in any direction approximately from where you stand without breaking a sweat at all. Not a bad way to go when things turn on you and it makes a great cover too.
     
  6. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Scopes should be zeroed at 25m as well!
    Most regular centrefires should be zeroed at 25m
    unless you shoot some sort of speciality match!

    At a 200m zero you restrict your utility! past that range perceived drop is much greater!

    A 25m zero gives a rising zero at 25m and the POI is slightly high out to approx. 250m where you have a falling zero!
    This setup will give you the best centre of mass hitability out to 400m plus without changing any sight settings!
     
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  7. Para173

    Para173 Well-Known Member
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    Years ago the Olympic Rifle Team came up with a cheat system for U.S. Army Snipers that can be applied to all medium caliber cartridges. You zero your scopes for whatever medium cartridge you are using for a specific distance. For the 7.62 NATO rounds, National Match ammo, we used to zero at 300 meters on 3 power with our 3 by 9 variable Redfield scopes. Now, keep in mind that this cheat system is for high speed combat situations using a scope. So, our scopes were zeroed dead on at 300 meters. If the target was closer we aimed lower down on the target. If the target was further out and if we were in a hurry, and needed to make a snap shot, we could "aim a little higher up on the target." What I'm suggesting is for a fixed sight, 4 power scope, to be zeroed at 200 meters and applying the cheat system when in a rush or tactical situation. It works. When we had the luxury of time, we would use our ART (Automatic Range Tracking) system reticles to properly sight in on the target.

    Here's an updated version of what I mean about sighting in a scope. http://gundata.org/blog/post/how-to-sight-in-scope/
    The author takes the sighting in of his scope to 100 yards and away from the 25 yard target. What you're saying about sighting in on a 25 yard target will work, yes. BUT, older shooters, like me, want to go out beyond the 25 yard zeros and do what we know from having done previously in training and combat.

    U.S Marines and Paratroopers will initially zero their rifles' iron or metal sights at 25 yards like you suggest. But later on, those same guys will then zero their rifle sights at 36 meters. Why? Combat experience has taught them to do that. Keep in mind that the government bean counters, many years ago, determined that the average sniper shot was done at about 142 meters. Round that off, kiss it on top of its head and call it an average 150 meters for general reference. In other words, about a block and a half. Hmm. So a zero of 200 meters, a dead on zero means that, for the majority of most tactical shots involving a sniper type rifle, all a guy has got to do is aim dead on or just a little lower. See how that works out?

    Here's a site explaining the difference between regular Army and Marine/Paratrooper battle sight zeros. https://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

    Now, also keep in mind that some of my information is old and dated. What you are quoting is probably more modern and correct for the modern day purists. I think that both ways will work and survival is all about having options. The more options you have, the more you understand and learn, the better your chances of survival will be. What I'm suggesting will probably help people out in the overall majority of survival situations. Personally, I keep a scoped .308 bolt action with a 3 by 9 (Sound familiar?) scope on it, instead of a .303 British, around the house along with some high quality ammo.

    For more information you can go online and visit various websites that have the U.S. Army Sniper Training Manual FM 23-10 in pdf format for downloading. It amounts to 329 pages of training information all about snipers and how they operate. http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/united_states_army_fm_23-10 - 17_august_1994.pdf
     
  8. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Actually what I was quoting was old time stuff ! military .303 as in basic sighting in for .303SMLE!
    I actually used to sight in at 100m and 300m but could spend hours and lots a ammo getting it right if there was any crosswind!
    THEN IN THE 70's this old WWI and WWII veteran showed how to sight in at just 25m! get everything right and put three shots spot on at 25m and you are good to go with the SMLE out to the range of your sights! with surplus ammo that is.
    One of the better tips from decades!
    And most regular centrefires deviate little from this! barring the slow ones and the lightspeed ones!
    I have sighted most of my centrefires alike from .223R through .243 up to .308W
    Every one gives me a 25m zero or very close to and a 250m zero!
    If target is 25m I aim spot on! if 100m I aim a little low, if 250m away spot on again and at 400m somewhat high!
    I rarely shoot past 300m and when I do I get out my .308W hammer! and that sorts things to 1,200m:D not that it gets much use anymore!

    Never been military but have won hundreds of trophies for bettering the rest!
    Tossed a skip full of trophies For martial Arts, Pistol and Rifle shooting when I quit competition ten years ago!
     
  9. Para173

    Para173 Well-Known Member
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    There you go, Arkane. Two old guys who have been around the block in different ways. You as a competition shooter and me through a war and 40+ years of law enforcement. In fact, I still teach police, civilian and sometimes military personnel about weaponry depending on the specific course of study. Like you I have awards, decorations and some scars to show where I've been and what I've done. I'm still picking pieces of Viet Nam out of my body on occasion as they work their way out. Because I still teach and need to keep up-to-date on information, I've learned to quote websites to back up what I say. I allow that some of my information is dated because, in some of I know, it is dated stuff BUT at one time it was valid and useful. My wife loves to say that the only reason I keep winning local trivia contests is because I'm "loaded full of useless knowledge."

    Let me compare our shooting worlds and see if I am right. You had a bolt action firearm or firearms. You had the hand-loaded or precision loaded ammo that you did yourself. If you did prone shooting you laid down on a nice mat. Your shooting was timed and at set distances. You had judges and you knew, in advance, what your course of fire would be.

    My shooting world has always been spontaneous, sudden and irregular. My weapons varied from full automatic fire to bolt action weapons. Sometimes I had National Match ammo but most of the time it was regular duty grade ammo. If I did prone shooting I got whatever the ground offered me: mud, grass, rocks, termite mounds or whatever. Much of my shooting was done in the dark, not timed and done at different distances. Much of the shooting was done at fairly close range. Most of the time the courses of fire in which I got involved came at me and my pals out of the blue, without warning. Ours was the most primitive survival kind of shooting that you can imagine.

    So, all things considered, we both bring things to the table that should be interesting. Tell you what, Arkane, do me a favor? Since I don't have a .303 SMLE and you do, zero your rifle your way and then test out the cheat method to see if your zero idea will work with quick cheat method. Now keep in mind, that the cheat method is for hurried shooting or combat shooting and you ride the vertical reticle. What you are doing is relying on the bullet's basic speed to be fast enough from 0 to 300 meters to ride the reticle with no deviation from wind at all. Now remember as you move in closer aim lower down on the target. Heck at 25 meters you may even need to aim at the very bottom or even slightly below the target to hit dead center but this is a speed or emergency shooting trick, not precision shooting like you would normally do.

    That's another thing. There is a difference between civilized sports shooting and rowdy, no rules survival shooting. Speed and precision is of the essence. Tactics augment what your firearms can do too. Double taps make guns more effective for general tactical work. In a world of survival, you won't get that daily bath. You'll be lucky to bathe once a week. If you are real lucky, you'll be able to wipe down every day. So the world I come from, Arkane, is the world you worry about in your nightmares. The reason I come to this site is because I want to learn more stuff because I know what it's like in a survival world. So I'm willing to learn too and hope for the best.

    Let me know if that cheat method works for you, Arkane. I hope it does.
     
  10. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Been there done that with that cheat, it works but I like mine better!
    My shooting was not always on a one way range but I am not going there!
    Very little of my early shooting was from a bench or prone but later and older it is now!

    I have no nightmares though some say I create nightmares but they are full of it!:)

    I have my fathers gift of falling into a cesspit then coming out smelling of roses!

    Father survived Dresden, three shipwrecks, the retreat through france and a stint in an American POW camp where he nearly starved to death!

    Transferred to England he was then released and found work women and new life!

    A true survivor there, even had half a dozen holes shot through him along the way!
     
  11. Para173

    Para173 Well-Known Member
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    Some of those guys from WW2, you've got to give them credit. I had a neighbor who had been in the Luftwaffe. He had been an airplane mechanic. At the end of the war he had been given a rifle and turned into an infantryman to help fight the Russians. He got shot up real bad and had the scars to prove it all over his body. He positively HATED the Russians. He was actually a Czech who had been forced into German military service. He spoke like 4 different languages fluently and became a Baptist minister.

    He once told me the story behind the word "sturmgewher." Sturmgewher means something akin to "storm weapon." When Senator Ted Kennedy had some hearing about rifles, he had a pencil neck geek lie in front of a committee about how sturmgewher meant "assault rifle." According to my neighbor, sturmgewher actually meant "a tool (rifle) to be used when being stormed (by enemy troops)." In other words, a sturmgewher is a DEFENSIVE rifle that has limited range, about 350 meters or so, and is not actually used for attacking purposes. I always thought that was interesting that a Democrat senator from an east coast state could get away with lying like that and not suffer any repercussions. After that, my neighbor had no use for Ted Kennedy either.
     
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