Pulling The Trigger Theory Vs Application

One thing I have noticed over the years is that a LOT of people and gun owners are truly, whole heartily, genuinely and completely ready to kill in theory. In their mind and soul they are okay with it. They have the guns, the training, the T-Shirts, the resume and the inclination. They read all of the magazines, and watch the right YouTube channels. They may be big talkers, or quiet about it, but deep down they believe they will act.

However although they are willing in theory, when it comes to application they don’t. In that critical moment of truth, they fail to act. They get a second or a few seconds to act in a real situation and just don’t get to bang mentally.

I have a lot of ideas on why this happens and how to fix it, but I thought I would get your thoughts on the subject.

 

Here in the United States we have something called the Democrat party ,"actually communist party" that want to follow Australia's example and disarm U.S. citizens so the citizens won't be able to fight back against tyranny .

 

I just do whatever needs to be done when it needs to be done if it is pulling a trigger or sticking a knife it don't matter to me!
I have no god to answer to only myself.
Never had a problem in the past so I see no reason I will have a problem in the future.

I have seen great white hunters kill with a firearm but be unable to hold and slit a goats throat for the BBQ !

 

Most of the times a gun is used for self defense, no shots are fired.
Often the mere sight of a gun ends the threat.

The majority of people shot with handguns survive.

I don't believe there is enough real data to assume that "lots" of people aren't willing to do what is needed when the time comes.

Most never find out at all.

 

I’m in a position to meet a lot of people who have been in those situations and often debrief them in regard.

 

Snyper

US data from the last hundred years or so says otherwise.

From my research done the hard way pre internet about 30% of persons involved in a gunfight are hardcore shooters but the rest hesitate and mostly get shot themselves because of it! lots of simple mistakes but hesitation is the most common.

If I remember right the big mistakes were
Empty chamber
Empty gun
Letting the opponent get too close
And just being stupid!

 

Well I'd say in the second they made a decision that deadly force was not justified or they found a different method to de-escalate. Noting weak about that, it likely kept their ass out of jail since there was an alternate route or their life truly wasn't at risk. If you're saying there are people everyday that fail to pull the trigger at that critical moment and pay for it, I'd have to see facts, cases and not conjecture as how often do you hear of a failed self protection shoot resulting in the permit holder dying. Otherwise we'd never know as the only person left would be the person they didn't pull the trigger on. You seem to be inferring they're weak in that they didn't pull the trigger. I think you're maybe looking at it the wrong way and that they were strong, well trained and thinking on their feet and went an alternate route to keep from pulling it. the simple and fearful thing to do would be squeeze. Only a dumbass would brag that they are egging to kill another person, if you find someone like that they need locked up as they're a sociopath or psychopath of some flavor. If they are ever involved in a justifiable shoot they will have a tough time walking back from those statements and in a sure to follow civil suit a jury will tear them up.

A long time ago I made a decision that if need be I will pull the trigger and I will not hesitate to do so if it comes to that. Only once have I had to draw my weapon in a self defense situation and thankfully it backed the guy down and I didn't need to shoot. I could have done so in that few seconds it took me to draw and most likely no charges would have been filed at all. But when the weapon was up I gave pause and a last warning and they guy realized he'd messed up and brought a knife to a gun fight. He quickly backed down and then ran away. I ended up not needing to shoot him, do i regret giving that last second pause for a final chance to de-escalate, nope. But don't confuse that I didn't with the the statement I wouldn't have. I don't think any healthy person wants to live their life with the fact they had to take another human life but many of us wiill or do as it was for their protection or that of a loved one.

 

Overthrow your government.

Putting restrictions on essential human liberties is an act of war.

Tyrants are not human.

 

Country Guy you hit on a lot of good points. I’ve seen it both ways. Guys who correctly and happily found another route to not getting hurt.

And I’ve also seen people who questioned why they didn’t act, even in cases where they came out okay, they realized after the fact that they allowed the criminal too many opportunities or extended his opportunity to hurt them. And mentally committed themselves to act quicker next time. Thus further developing their shooter mindset based on learning from a personal negative experience.

Where I disagree is the thought that a justifiable homicide will result in charges being filed against you. The OVERWHELMING majority of the time this isn’t the case. But it’s a relevant topic because sadly that is a major reason people hesitate. Misinformation from people selling CCW insurance about the realities of self-defense law.

Great post though, I loved your feedback!

 

This type of situation is extremely helpful for the student of self-defense to experience. Because you learn something about yourself if you truly get that close to pulling the trigger. It can greatly build your confidence that you will without question act if required, because you had already decided to shoot in a real situation, with all of the complexities and the totality that involves. And the only reason you didn’t is because the criminal changed his actions.

I totally agree in this type of situation it can be healthy for the shooter to not pull the trigger. Great job.

As stated I have also seen people who rewound the tape and thought, “Man I gave that guy too big of opportunity and should have shot! Thank goodness he did X instead of Z.”

 

Maybe killing a lot of animals when a child takes the edge off shooting humans. Ugly crap topic. Civvies defend their families. Soldiers defend their troop. It's like having car accidents -- do what you gotta do at the time. Think about it later.

Don't ever challenge rednecks thinking that they just might freeze with horror or some neurotic anxiety whatever. Ain't gonna happen. Can you say, "Lead poisoning." It's knee-jerk kill where I'm from. Note to outsiders, back-off or die. That's no threat, just simple reality. Mess with a sow bear's cub -- she gonna think about what to do? No brother, she isn't.

 

The thing about guns is that so many people just don't understand the RULES. A Gun is not used as a threat unless you are a cop. If I pull a gun I'm going to shoot you because if I wasn't in immediate danger of attack I'm not going to escalate the problem to a lethal encounter. If you don't KNOW that you can, will and are going to shoot someone NEVER draw the gun. If you are not shooting they will be and you will be dead. If the gun is in your hand and you have still not made the decision to shoot the gun is more of a danger to you than protection. Human reaction time is such that if you have not shot and are going to try and react if you decide that they are going to harm you they will be able to cut your throat unless they are more than 20 feet away. That leads to the last rule...Guns are for standing over here and shooting people over there! Keep your distance until they are down and can't make a run at you. A gun is actually a terrible weapon for hand to hand combat!!!!

In Texas, I can legally shoot you for stealing my hubcaps. Would I do it....no? As long as you don't enter my buildings I won't feel threatened enough to use lethal force. If I wake up at night and you are in my house I will kill you on sight. If you try to rob me personally I will shoot you. If you strike me I will shoot you. If I shoot you you will probably die. I have never shot a person. I have no real desire to kill anyone.

If you are going to bear arms you need to sit down and seriously consider your feelings on this. When are you SURE that you will kill? What things are worth killing FOR? Will you be able to look their loved ones in the face and tell them that you had to do it? Once it's done you are going to have to own it and live with it.

 

You are referencing the Tueller Drill and the “21 foot rule.” I suspect you know already, but it’s a bit more complex than what you mentioned above.

 

Tex and TMT please don’t take this like I’m coming at you but the above is just bad gun advice that gets circulated over and over. Always waiting to draw until it is crucial to the point that you absolutely need to fire that gun right then is not good tactical advice. And that misinformation is part of the problem and part of why people fail to act in a timely manner.

 

Well if you are using it as a legal defense it is. The “21 foot rule” has been heavily litigated. And simply being armed and within 21 feet in and of itself does not constitute a lethal threat or legal self-defense. Again I don’t think you are truly trying to make it that simple. But others might take it that way and try to operationslize an incomplete formula.

 

Great point. It’s difficult in a situation to see beyond your own immediate safety concerns. Especially the first time someone tries to kill you. So it would be asking a lot of Country Guy to be concerned about such things in that moment. He did solve the problem and he was safe.

But after an incident it’s healthy to explore what you did, why you did it, and what you would want to do next time. Your point is an example of what I’m talking about where someone might have that thought and regret not pulling the trigger.

 

Well your making my point, there are more factors than being armed and with 21 feet, such as a reasonable believe that they have a motive to hurt you. And also the ability as in no serious obstacles like a locked car door between you. That’s why I was saying I’m sure you understand it isn’t that simple. Not trying to argue, just being as accurate as possible.

And it’s also true that in some situations you wouldn’t be okay shooting someone with a knife inside of 21 feet and the reverse is also true. You might be legally okay shooting someone further than 21 feet.

The 21 foot rule isn’t a rule at all, only an unscientific but useful guideline.

 

The simple way I could explain this is to consider thinking about the difference between when you should and are willing and justified in using lethal force, vs when you actually want to pull the trigger.

 

To go back to the original question " Would you pull the trigger or not?" I don't know if anybody really knows until they are in the situation. You can say what you will do. You can train to do everything properly. When the SHTF how do you know you won't be a deer in the headlights?

I THINK that I could pull the trigger. I THINK that I have been trained by very good, knowledgeable people. I know I have done everything I have been told. I hope I never have to find out. I think this is a good thread to post this link. It is an interesting concept and at about the 8:45 mark there is data on why armed citizens fail in a gunfight.

 

I’m not going to complete my considering as you profess to have done, let’s start with that. And I’ve already told you my opinion, I’m certainly not going to use words like always and never as it pertains to tactical problem solving. As in I will NEVER draw my gun unless I’m going to fire it.

Waiting to draw your gun in some circumstances can be under responding to a threat.

 

I liked the video.

Some people may feel the weapon isn’t accessible enough, therefore want to act, but don’t have the confidence to deploy it in a timely manner.

Or they lack the confidence in their ability to solve the problem because they are carrying a gun that is a small caliber, has a low mag capacity and or tends to malfunction but they carry it anyways because they purchased it and it’s comfortable.

I agree totally that lack of confidence is a huge factor. There are a lot of reasons people lack confidence. As I mentioned not knowing how the law actually works in the real world and being fed misinformation is a huge one. But lack of confidence in equipment and skill is CERTAINLY another one.

Great post Morgan!

 

I wasn't meaning to say that you should wait until it was critical and then try a quick draw. The point that I was trying to make is that pulling a gun that you are not then fully and immediately ready to use is really REALLY bad on so many levels.

First off if you are not under immediate threat and you come out with a pistol, even in Texas, you are committing a felony. You just don't pull a gun because you are mad or someone was running their head at you. This places you in a very tenuous legal position.

If you pull a gun and don't use it immediately you may have just escalated a screaming match into a life or death situation. If you go first without compelling evidence of being in danger you just became the attacker.

Peoples reaction times are a very limiting factor. Very few people have the training and muscle memory to start, stop, think about it and start again before another person can act decisively. If you pull a gun on me and don't shoot me I WILL draw my gun and shoot you before you can DECIDE to shoot me and react. The fact that you have not shot me means that you have to make that decision before you can act while I am performing a muscle trained draw and fire with very little decision making going on. This would not possibly work against a trained opponent like an experienced cop or someone in the active military but most people just don't have the ability to make that start, stop, start with any precision.

You don't let someone get close to you and then draw your gun and not fire immediately. Drawing a gun that you are not prepared to shoot will get you killed. My draw and fire is a trained ACTION. Even I would fall prey to hesitation if I drew and stopped. The TV cowboy face off is like the old karate chop to the side of the neck that knocks you out and is just silly. If you wait until I start my draw to decide to draw your gun you are going to get shot unless you are some sort of freak.

Understand, my advice is based on getting you out of a bad situation alive. It is based on you practicing so that if you make a move it is fluid and decisive.

More later I have to go fishng...

 

This part of the statement I totally agree with. Never drawing unless you are going to fire vs not drawing it unless you are willing to fire are wildly different, major, drastic differences in strategies.

Planning to only draw if you fire the weapon is a shallow plan. Being willing to fire every time if that becomes the most reasonable option is wisdom. And certainly there are times when drawing and immediately firing is the reasonable option.

 

In no way am I suggesting you pull a weapon out prior to being legally okay to do so. Rather this is my main point on this branch of the conversation. The legal burden for a reasonable person feeling in fear for their life is actually pretty easy to articulate in most cases and is met often well before you actually are in fear for your life and feel the need to shoot. So if you can legally shot them, you certainly can legally use a lesser degree of force by deploying the weapon without firing it. Solving the problem legally before things escalate to needing to fire. It happens all of the time.

In that scenario not firing makes sense and isn’t a failure to act, rather not drawing would be under responding and firing wouldn’t be over responding legally but to the shooter it would be morally too far at that moment.

My original post was to discuss a different type of situation where someone wanted to pull the trigger, but didn’t for whatever reason. As opposed to what I’m relating above where not firing was a tactical decision that resulted in solving the problem before the need to fire existed.

 

I’m getting a lot of comments imply that drawing from concealment beats a drawn gun due to action vs reaction. Certainly action vs reaction is a real principle but it isn’t black magic that will save you.

In fact law enforcement officers are taught to react against a close proximity drawn gun by disarming the weapon from the attacker vs attempting to draw their own weapon. Even though a uniformed officer isn’t facing the additional challenges of drawing from concealment.

If the gun is outside of grabbing distance and you can move, do it, because if you just stand there and draw you will likely get shot. And if movement and grabbing isn’t possible either wait for a better opportunity or worse case scenario draw under the gun and hope you will be saved by your vest, modern medical care, or the opponents lack of marksmanship.

But plan A is to disarm over drawing if possible because that is the most probable way of midigating the threat without getting shot.

Every professional is teaching the value of action vs reaction, but nobody is selling it like being a fast draw expert is a safe proffered path to victory.

They aren’t teaching if someone breaks into your home to respond with a holstered weapon because it’s safer and quicker and less confusing than if you already had it out and ready. That’s nonsense.

Rather the opposite in that the concept is that the fastest draw is the gun already in your hand. Or rather getting the gun in your hand as early as possible in a conformation. Exactly the opposite of wait until the need to fire exists because you are behind the action curb at that point.

 

Any opinions or declarations made in a thread like this could prejudice any future claim of self defence, possibly not for you guys in the US but for those of us in the UK or Australia its a really bad idea to put these statements in writing.

 

The law in America is more clear than most people understand in regards to self-defense. I’m completely okay with discussing my ability and strategy to do that. Because it is my right, and it’s in the spirit of doing reasonable things to protect myself from death or serious injury.

For multiple reasons I wouldn’t want to say many things on here, but honestly discussing the subject I’m okay with personally. In regards to me attorneys have much deeper Wells to draw from.

I think it’s a great point to bring up and consider.

 

I'm back...Great day fishing. We had a great time and ended up with 8lbs of boneless fillets.

Myth Busters actually did a show on the topic of knife or handgun at ranges of less than 20 feet.

I think that to some extent we are sort of saying the same thing but from opposite ends of the perspective. I believe that if you are going to carry a gun that you should practice with it and be very competent with it. I am not going to draw and wave a gun around. If I reach for my gun things are already past the crisis point. I have trained to draw and fire. I can and have proven a bunch of times that even if you have the gun out I can draw and hit a target before the average untrained person can fire an accurate round.

If you aren't going to train you might be better off without a gun to carry. For one thing, I have seen way too many people that seemed to think that since they had a gun that they were now some how 7' tall, armor-plated and a real live gunslinger. Shooting a box of shells through a new gun does not make you trained. I used to instruct at a range and saw this all the time...and the thought of people like that carrying guns just scares the crap out of me.

Gotta eat more latter....

 

Good post Tex. I think a casual reader might take some of my comments as stirring the pot. But in my world digging up all of these issues is encouraged and healthy.

 

Many times if no shots are fired nothing is reported, so there is little data that accounts for those incidents.
Police reports mostly document shootings.
They don't document the crimes prevented by merely showing a means of self defense.

 

How could you debrief someone if nothing is reported?
There's plenty of data to be found:

https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LottMustard.pdf

 

Not all the uses of a firearm for self defense are against someone armed with a gun of their own.

 

THIS sort of topic is, in my humble opinion (HaHA), is at the very root of prepping. I believe that being prepared is more of a mental thing than just a physical gathering of physical things. No two people are the same and when it comes to something as serious as taking a human life each person has to find their way according to what they can live with. If you wait until you are in crisis to consider these sort of things you may either hesitate or act in panic and make a bad decision.

For ME and no one else, I will not show a gun until my life is in imminent threat. When the gun comes out I'm going to shoot someone. If I'm not going to shoot someone then the gun needs to stay in the holster. As close as I will ever come to making a threat that a gun is involved in would be pulling my coat back to clear my weapon or pull my shirt out and tuck it in behind my holster to clear it. this will only be done when I'm on the killing edge and almost sure that things are about to go sideways.

I also understand that a lot of you have problems because of where you live and you have to add in the legal ramifications of even trying to defend yourselves. If I act as I plan there will be no legal problem. The threat will be obvious and the fact that I was defending myself from serious injury. That also is a part of my personal decision about how I will handle a threat.

We each and every one of us will have to decide how we will deal with crisis and threat. That decision needs to be based on your skills, your situation and what you can live with. the time to consider these sort of things is now and not when it is happening.

Disagreement just makes us think harder and reevaluate our decisions. A discussion where everyone agrees is like riding down the road talking to a bobblehead doll that is stuck on your dash.

 

I'm old, I'm not going to even try to fight with a young buck. I'm not going to let anyone beat the hell out of me either. I'm old but I am still tough enough to take a few hits. I will then try to leave and if they grab me I will shoot them. In this way, I have established that I have a reasonable concern of bodily injury and made an effort to leave and was pursued. In Texas that places me in legal right to use lethal force.

I HATE all the legal stuff but knowing your legal rights and responsibilities in just about as important as your proficiency with a weapon. Knowledge is the real preparation for survival. I know the laws AND know what to say and not say when I give my statement to the cops.

 

Lots of people who experience events talk to me for a variety of reasons.

 

That applies to everyone.
That doesn't create data though.

 

None of that applies to what I said about the earlier comment you made.
"Taking a few hits" is a dangerous and foolish strategy.

 

Data is like a bikini. It’s interesting to look at, but it’s what is under the bikini that holds the real secrets.

 

If you shoot an unarmed person that has not touched you that is called murder. If they have a weapon I will simply draw and kill them when the threat becomes unavoidable. The law makes no distinction about your right to defend yourself whether it is from a gun, knife, ax, club or a javelin. I addressed your comment in the only way applicable to me where I live.

 

Well dang Tex I hate disagreeing with you but shooting an unarmed person who hasn’t touched you is not an automatic murder charge, not by a LONG shot. A+B does not necessarily = C on that one. Lots of scenarios where this would be justified.