Question About United States Military......especially The National Guard.

Discussion in 'General Q&A' started by Sourdough, Apr 12, 2019.

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  1. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    Question about United States Military......especially the National Guard.

    So.......Please help me to understand. I have long understood (read thought) that the United States Military was/is prohibited from attacking Americans inside the borders of America. So first question is that accurate.....???

    Second, I was of the understanding that the "National Guard" was exempt from the above, as it was/is a domestic unit under the management (direct or indirect) of the Governors of each state/territory/district/etc.. And that this is what allowed for the shooting and killing of (8) Eight students at the Ohio State University about 1968, by The Ohio National Guard.

    So I am looking for a clear understanding of any "Military" attacking Americans, and exactly who can authorize that action.

    Note: I do not have any issue with the United States Military........however I would like to be crystal clear as to what they can and can't do inside the borders of America to citizens of America. With talk of Civil War II or Revolution, I should think this is somewhat important.
     
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  2. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    If there is widespread civil unrest in America. Say for example the Longshoremen's Union was on strike, and it has lasted for seven weeks. The Teamster's Union has all or nearly all the trucking companies closed with truckers on strike. The Railroad Workers Union and Pullmans Union are on strike. The "ARMY" National Guard, has been attempting to quell massive civil unrest riots.

    Now say, The "ARMY" National Guard, has taken very heavy casualties, Up to 17% of "ARMY" National Guardsmen have been killed or wounded. Here is the question......???

    Can the United States Army, transfer seventy-eight thousand troops to the "ARMY" National Guard.....???

    In a "Purely" domestic disturbance in America, can The United States Marines, be sent to reinforce the "Army" National Guard.....???

    Now for extra bonus points. Why does it appear as if the American people's government is covertly consolidating power to enforce its will, on the people whom it is charged with protecting and serving......???
     
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  3. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    As I understand it, military may lawfully be ordered by Congress to give limited support to or act in concert with civilian law enforcement while the national guard may operate within its home state or adjacent state on the instruction of the relevant state governors

    This next bit is cut and paste so feel free to ignore the links (in green)

    The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prohibits the use of U.S. military forces to perform the tasks of civilian law enforcement such as arrest, apprehension, interrogation, and detention unless explicitly authorized by Congress.
    The Posse Comitatus Act, signed into law by President Rutherford B. Hayes on June 18, 1878, limits the power of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce U.S. laws and domestic policies within the borders of the United States. The law was passed as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction and was subsequently amended in 1956 and 1981.
    As originally enacted in 1878, the Posse Comitatus Act applied only to the U.S. Army but was amended in 1956 to include the Air Force. In addition, the Department of the Navy has enacted regulations intended to apply the Posse Comitatus Act restrictions to the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps.
    The Posse Comitatus Act does not apply to the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard when acting in a law enforcement capacity within its own state when ordered by the governor of that state or in an adjacent state if invited by that state’s governor.
    Operating under the Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Coast Guard is not covered by the Posse Comitatus Act. While the Coast Guard is an “armed service,” it also has both a maritime law enforcement mission and a federal regulatory agency mission.
    The Posse Comitatus Act was originally enacted due to the feeling of many members of Congress at the time that President Abraham Lincoln had exceeded his authority during the Civil War by suspending habeas corpus and creating military courts with jurisdiction over civilians.
    It should be noted that the Posse Comitatus Act greatly limits, but does not eliminate the power of the President of the United States to declare "martial law," the assumption of all civilian police powers by the military.
    The president, under his or her constitutional powers to put down insurrection, rebellion, or invasion, may declare martial law when local law enforcement and court systems have ceased to function. For example, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, President Roosevelt declared martial law in Hawaii at the request of the territorial governor.

    What that means in practice is anyone's guess.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  4. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    It has already been done. Federal troops were ordered to attack civilian tax resisters long ago. This first attempt at an "income tax" was eventually repealed and we went without one until woodrow wilson(D) screwed us. 13,000 federalized troops led by a very famous general were mobilized to attack civilians who would not pay the tax.
     
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  5. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    WOW-WOW-WOW...........that is "Exactly what I was hoping to find. Much Thank You.
     
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  6. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    There was also a very large Union Strike that was smashed violently by military force, I think in PA..
     
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  7. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    .....bottom line, if the financial and political brokers feel threatened, the military will be used. The Patriot Act opened the door and it was made legal to secretly imprison and hold an American if that person was deemed a terrorist. It didn't identify who had to make the accusation, their justification, nor is it required to present evidence to support the act; the person will simply disappear without access to any constitutional rights https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law . Anyone who believes the government is for the people..........I have some magic beans for sale.
     
  8. Duncan

    Duncan Expert Member
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    Are you talking about Douglas MacArthur and his troops (under orders from President Herbert Hoover) putting down the Bonus Army march in July 1932 ...

    ... or George Washington marching against the Whiskey Rebellion guys in 1794?
     
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  9. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    They aren't allowed to do law enforcement duties in the US except under special circumstances.

    If fighting was that heavy that would most likely trigger "Martial Law", meaning the military would take over all LEO duties.

    None of that is likely to happen though, outside PAW fantasy stories.
     
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  10. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    It was kind of a Rorschach test. It has happened several times in the past. Each person might see a different incident.
     
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  11. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    In the U.S. and probably everywhere people are always in danger of being attacked by their own government .Look at what occurred at Ruby Ridge . The government brought in snipers and a small army to attack Weaver and his family . Their reason , an undercover federal boy pretending to be his friend talked him into sawing off a shotgun barrel a inch or two shorter than the federal law stipulated . They attacked a bunch of folks in Waco Texas and burned them out , killing many people . The reason . They didn't agree with their religion . Here in the U.S. it doesn't necessarily have to be the National Guard that makes a military style attack . The feds at one point was so focused on me , they would send me nice post cards every Christmas . I found myself wherever I was at , traveling down the road or going to the mail box ,peering behind bushes looking for those fed boys hiding to watch me . My grandkids got a kick out of me watching airplanes and helicopters that would sometimes circle around the house .
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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    1. Schattentarn
      I am in California so I do not fear the regular Army under Donald Trump. I fear the National Guard under Gavin Newscum. I hope the regular Army rolls in and liberates this state from the traitors running it now. Also, I hope "civilians" mean US civilians so the regular Army can be deployed against the illegal alien invasion.
       
      Schattentarn, Jul 13, 2019
  12. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    You mean like ........not likely as in not likely aircraft would be deliberately flown into Twin Towers and murder thousands.......???

    Or do you mean not likely as in, the entire world financial system would ever fail, like 2008.....???

    Or do you mean not likely that a little country like Japan could and would sink much of the United States battle fleet.....???

    I suspect that with a small effort, the members of this forum, could create a long like of events that were assumed to have been "Not Likely".......but it still happened.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    And then there is the matter of ordering men to do that which they simply will not do.

    Sheriffs departments are currently refusing to enforce anti-Constitutional laws. Consider also that 90% of combat military are rather conservative in their political leanings. Many would not put their boots on the necks of people who are identical to their very own families.

    And here's the rule of all "civilizations", "Whoever owns the guns, makes the rules."

    Anyone not believing that is still a child in their head. One must allow unreasonable people to perish.
     
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  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Oh by the way, there was no "financial collapse" in 2008. Compare a sneeze to the 1917 flu. That is the real "economic downturn" that is going to hit our interconnected planet. All fiat currencies will fall and likely at the same time. Everybody who is in the know knows this. China and Russia (a gold-mining nation itself) are buying massive amounts of gold.

    If you have savings monetized in a fiat currency, those savings WILL be wiped out -- 100% likelihood.
     
  15. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    That's not a similar scenario.
    Context matters.

    Another totally different scenario.
    The "whole world" didn't fail. No world war started.

    The one you described has never happened here nor anywhere else that I know of.

     
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  16. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    @Old Geezer , I have seen you post this number in the past. I am curious where you get this 90% statistic. I believe that it is incorrect today. I honestly think it is closer to 40/60 or even 50/50 today.
     
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  17. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Old Geezer and Last Outlaw,

    Do factor in the NEW, de facto, composition of US military. It now includes the NGOs (Non-Governmental Organizations). For example: MPRI = Military Professional Resources, Inc. It was initially established and led by a retired 3 star US Army general. There's the more familiar DynCorps. Vinnell Corp, the "advisor" to SANG (Saudi Arabian National Guard), ...

    Related; I hope to post something at yesterday's North Carolina prepper org (or lack thereof). Moyock, North Carolina got my attention. This town was the initial site of Frontier Services when it was known as "Blackwater". Moyock is next to Virginia Beach, Virginia. This area is the largest military section of the nation now.

    The military has been reorganized. CONARC, the old Continental Army Command, ... I'm omitting the USAF Air Defense Cmd because of typing matters here ... was replaced by Northern Command ("NORCOM"). Much has changed.

    Now add the NGO support services to above.

    All the above is a slow process and there is resistance. The beer money checks from the National Guard meetings are going away. The Eagle is recuperating and preparing.

    ......

    IBME; It was Kent State University, Ohio circa 1970 ['71 ?]. Believe it was Governor Otto Kerner (spelling ?) who produced the report on what happened.
     
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I should clarify. Among combat / actual fighting forces.

    Still, when dealing with military personnel and ex-military, I see very few left-leaning folk

    In the Marine Corps a survey was taken. Only one out of three said that they would take up arms against U.S. civilians. Note also that military personnel are made-up of people from states that are conservative in nature, Heartland America. Urbanites are under-represented in the military.
     
  19. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    One in three is 33%. Not 90%. I really doubt that even 30% left leaning is correct and that the number is much higher in other branches of service.

    If 30% of the US Marines would take up arms against the citizenry then I would bet the number is much higher in the US Army. I lived and worked right outside Ft. Hood in Texas and I can tell you that the numbers of left leaning military personnel is much higher than even the 30%. These people ARE our combat troops.

    I have to say that if 30% of the US Marines would take up arms against the citizenry and follow such orders then that is a very scary number for sure.
     
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  20. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    Wow....a rat in the nest...


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  21. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Friend of mine just left Ft. Hood. She described Killeen, Texas as the armpit of humanity. Said that there was all manner of drug addicts living there.

    So LastOutlaw, you think the military will side with the communists. The left is out of the closet, by the by. Liberals perpetually put down America. And now you say the military hates the Americans who support them and will take up arms against civilians to fight for the leftist internationalists. Obama, et. al., supported the slow death of all military branches. The folk I know in the Military loathe the Obama / Hillary / Jane Fonda lot.

    LastOutlaw (have you actually committed felonies?) you have convinced me, the military, I guess, is just a herd of sheep and will burn the Constitution if asked to do so.

    If that's true, then I guess I'll likely die fighting back for Tommy Jefferson and his lot. At least I'll die with dignity.
     
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  22. LastOutlaw

    LastOutlaw Master Survivalist
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    Whoa. Now dont get carried away and dont put words in my mouth.

    First, Yes Killeen is a pit. Lots of military towns are and Killeen is a huge military town. I dont think that most leftist realize they are headed towards communism. Keep in mind that today's young people are not taught about communism like we were. They also have been primed to accept Socialism for the last 20 years at least in the public school system. I do think that close to 50% will do as they are told without question. I would guess that the people that you know in the military are older people like you and I. The old school people in the military are conservative for the most part. At least the ones who are left there. I honestly do not think most of the younger people today know what the constitution is. They certainly are not taught about it in public school.

    I was raised in the military. It is not the same as it was when I lived on post many many years ago.
    There are a lot of people who are using the military as a means to citizenship. There are many others who simply think of it as a job and a way out of their own personal shithole. Whatever that may be.

    Obama purged a lot of the conservative leaders out of the military during his administration by way of litmus questions. Remember?

    I do think that socialism will come to this country at some point in the next few changes of administration. I think that because the school systems teach that it is the right thing and no one seems to be addressing that problem. Regardless of the reprieve we seem to have gotten by Donald Trump being elected, the pendulum swings and at some point there will be more of the kids who think socialism is a great thing and an answer to the problems as they are being taught and it will be implemented. I think if the leftists hadn't stolen the primary from Bernie Sanders we may have been there now. I think there was a very good chance he would have won the presidency because of the college aged voters who #walkedaway when Hillary got the nomination.

    socialism.jpg
     
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  23. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    The left showed their hand too soon. They really should have waited for a few more generations to die off, before pushing the extreme socialist platform. There are still too many Living Americans (us old farts) that remember real history and reality. That mistake may slow them down but in the end, "Free Lunch) will win out.
     
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  24. Duncan

    Duncan Expert Member
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    I think the reason that the liberal ideas are becoming more popular with a significant number of Americans is simple: According to most polls the biggest hot-button issue for Americans is healthcare. No one will disagree that (1) our health care system is broken; and (2) all the European countries, as well as Australia, Canada, Japan, and most of the Asian countries around the Pacific Rim have better healthcare than Americans do.

    Several years ago, Dawn and I and my brother and his wife took a two-week trip to Costa Rica. One week was messing around, and the second week was a dog-'n'-pony show for people considering becoming expats. Understand that CR is not a Third World country; it's a (practically) First World country surrounded by Third World countries, e.g., Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador. We visited several hospitals, clinics, and dental offices. Their medical/dental care is better than ours. In fact; CR's healthcare is like Canada's: you might have to wait a bit, but it's cheaper, and you don't have to worry about not having insurance, pre-existing conditions, etc. CR is rated 15th in the world for healthcare, the US at the time was rated 16th.
    Check it out here:

    "According to a recent publication from the Commonwealth Fund, The USA is ranked last out of 11 Countries.
    'Among the 11 nations studied in this report – Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in 2010, 2007, 2006, and 2014'
    According to a recent publication from the Commonwealth Fund, The USA is ranked last out of 11 Countries."

    Liberals say we should adopt a single-payer healthcare plan, because the rest of the civilized world does so, and their healthcare is better (and more cost-effective) than ours. More and more Americans are beginning to agree with them.

    How about guns? Well, for many of us, the Second Amendment is very important, but more and more people (including a lot of Republicans) are beginning to think that people should be checked out before purchasing firearm to try to weed out the crazies. You may say that "registration is the first step toward confiscation" or "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", but fewer and fewer people are buying in to that stuff anymore.

    So ... does this mean that we're in for years of progressive ideas becoming the law of the land? Possibly. Trump has nominated several "conservative" SCOTUS jurors (successfully), but that doesn't mean they'll always vote the way Trumpists of the "Conservatives" (two very different groups, BTW) would want them to.

    I think that, within ten years, the US will have a single-payer government-insurance for healthcare and it will work out fine. I also think that, within ten years, the NRA will become less and less relevant to most Americans, and there won't be that many cold, dead fingers for someone to pry the guns from.

    And the Republic will survive. It always has.
     
  25. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Duncan,

    Highly accurate.

    I thought I was reading a briefing paper from a US Senator to a major campaign contributor as to what's going on.
     
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  26. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    No it hasn't. We are a very young nation in the grand scheme. The republic I was born into is already dead. Even that was less free than the republic my grandfather was born into. The republic is just among the walking dead. It continues, dying a little more each day, not realizing it has already failed. I remember reading an old series by Isaac Asimov called "Foundation". Life went on in the empire as it continued to degenerate and fail until it was plunged into barbarism. We are on our way. The descent is picking up speed daily. The evidence is all around us from the slaughter of millions of unborn children every year to the failure to protect our borders from the barbarians at the gates, to the complete debasing of our currency, the the hatred of honest work. The bread and circuses keep the public mollified for now, but it will only take one thing to bring it all tumbling down in an eye-blink.
     
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  27. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Son of Liberty,

    If I may, ...

    Just contrary subject-matter commentary; I'd still help you 100% id we were together working a disaster so we could GOOD.

    Actually the US is older than several of the modern nation-states. Think of Germany, Italy, the French Republic, Japan, ...

    I don't know your age nor your grandfather's so this isn't going to be that clear - but still on point.

    A republic and a people's republic are still "republics". Think Of Dr Sun's China and Chairman Mao's China. They both ran republics and there was still some prosperity and some starvation and et cetra.

    Think of pre US official entry WWII. The nation's labor unions were getting established as powerful political forces no less so than the more recent eg Black Panther Party, American Association of University Professors, American Medical Association, etc.

    Ref the barbarianism; you could be right and I prep for this but,so far, the US is a relatively safe society compared to the pre-WWII and immediate post WWII eras.

    The abortion matter has national inherent consensus and support - regardless of the public rhetoric. The continued support of the Social Security retirement program and the other large programs with a similar complexion shrank the nation labor force. Thus, women were required to work. This requires abortions on demand PLUS the providers are making fortunes (It's publicly-funded). Recall the acronym DINK - Duel Income No Kids. They were being subsidized - indirectly by the national abortion program.

    The US currency is not debased. It is devalued. This is how the pension funds are de facto being depleted so as to make the US competitive again. Watch the change to inflation that's pending. An inflation rate of 2% means the Fed is reducing the purchasing power of the monopoly mone.... er ... the dollar ... by 2% every year. Every generation (20 years per) assets are valued at one half. The US is on the way to become competitive again.

    "Hatred of hard work": agree. This is the school system teaching this. The family structure is long gone. Racial integration has been a national failure. Immigrants are arriving from the the wrong nations without skills for the labor force.
     
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  28. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    I am in my mid 50s. My grandfather died 3 years ago at 99 years of age. While we are still technically a "republic" we are much less free to say and do as we wish than we were when I was born. I clearly remember days when I carried rifles to school in anticipation of hunting after school. I also remember bringing knives to school to be prepared for a scout meeting immediately after school. In my grandfather's day, and for a time after, you could by antitank weapons and machine guns out of a catalog to be delivered to your home. in the years just before my birth, you could still get rifles and shotguns out of the Sears catalog delivered directly to your home. Before WW2, my grandfather traveled the world working on a freighter with no transport, he drove cars for years with no driver's license required. I could go on, but you get my point.
     
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  29. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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    Our currency is debased.
    We used to be on the gold standard. Our coins used to be gold and silver; nickle and copper. Gold is gone as is the gold standard. Silver coins were reduced to 90% then 50% now none. Even pennies are no longer copper. That is debasement. Our FRNs are devalued and the devaluation continues.
     
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  30. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Master Survivalist
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  31. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Son of Liberty,

    Appreciate providing the age info.

    I understand your point, get it and basically agree with the money matter.

    We've got political correctness now. I remember the McCarthy era when one slip up and someone would send a report to some org. Even studying the Russian language generated suspicion.

    The "religious establishment" was a de facto political force. They dictated matters such as businesses being open on Sundays.

    Other post;

    The gold standard went away in places besides the US. When President Wilson learned of "elastic money", he and the rest of the politicians ... well, they loved fiat money.

    Abortion: like much else here at msf.com, different persons use different definitions for the same word. Critical US labor shortages required the 1973 Roe Wade abortion legislation. Do remember the Social Security program prevented an insurrection. This was the same for the organized national labor unions.

    What's the difference whether following the Ba'al worship practices and those practices of other "faiths" ? Recall the 1890 Reynold versus US Supremes decision prohibiting polygamy by the Latter Day Saints. These confrontations and compromises were going on even in colonial times. Remember Lord Baltimore colony were not Protestants.
     
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