Rebuilding after "the event"

Discussion in 'The Apocalypse' started by Arboreal, Jun 15, 2016.

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  1. Arboreal

    Arboreal Active Member
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    In the thread about goods for trade there is/was a debate whether any trade would take place after the apocalypse, since in the immediate aftermath, it will be wiser to avoid contact with strangers at all. That brings another question: how long do you think it would take for the society to start rebuilding after a disastrous chain fo events devastated the global civilization? What are the signs we might want to look for in such scenario?

    Granted, these are not the most practical question that came to mind ;) but I still think it's worth considering. I think it's rather tricky to re-estabilish cotnact witht eh wider society once we lose it, so maybe the safest bet would be to keep checking radio broadcasts - naturally, this requires equipment and a source of electricity, but it may allow to learn about re-estabilished communities, trade centres without taking the ultimate risk of venturing to an unknown group of people.
     
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  2. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I think the most likely scenario would be that groups would eventually grow into communities. All groups & communities NEED guidance. No one person can guide a group or community, it has to be a cooperative system. I can lead, I can delegate. I know the strengths & weaknesses of the people in our group, but I am not here to rule. As these communities grow, this will produce our new government.
    This form of government rarely exists today, here in Australia the government is NOT for the people. It is a dictatorship government that rules the people. The peoples rights are sacrificed to make the government, the super wealthy & the big corporations even more wealthy. Government here is about money & power & without a revolution or a TEOTWAWKI situation, there is no way out for us.
    Keith.
     
  3. Toast

    Toast New Member
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    If you look at early human history, I think that gives you a good idea of how it would turn out. Of course there would be loners, but for the most part people would be going and growing communities. Maybe it would start with just getting your family together, and then more and more people want to join. Having a community where everyone has a purpose and highly functioning is probably the ideal. That's the best way to grow society back to normal as fast as possible. We can only hope in such a scenario, that not all is lost, wouldn't want to start from scratch again. But I believe our ability to come together, into small towns and communities, and grow from there, is a good one.
     
  4. Arboreal

    Arboreal Active Member
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    That's true, but there's the problem of crossing the bridge between you and your immediate group of survivors and the bigger community. What criteria would you insist on for accepting new members (which will be necessary for the groups to grow quickly)? This would be a serious problem, initially we might be better off isolating ourselves, but when things begin to settle down it'll be better to let the group build up. Granted, in a small, close-knit group, it'll be easy to tell if the new member is a freeloader or socially dangerous, so you could always get rid of them if they failed to maintain the standards - pretty harsh action, but I guess it would be necessary in such harsh environment.

    I like your idea about cooperative system, I guess it might be more likely to appear, actually, since people with survivalist background would be the ones providing the experience, and we're not the most obedient, pro-authoritarian bunch out here ;)
     
  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    isolation to begin with, then "tribal" local groups would form, eventually villages would be created, but I fear this will be a long time before it happened.
     
  6. John Snort

    John Snort Well-Known Member
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    It could take a generation or two before people start trusting each other enough to start working together. And even then there'll be no guarantee that you'll be totally safe in a community until there comes a time when there is a way to enforce laws and punishing those who don't abide by laws . . .

    And that [non-existence of law or ways to enforce universal law] is what will probably make people unwilling to rebuild because . . . well, why bother if everything you build will be gone again?
     
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  7. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    and most people when talking about rebuilding want exactly the same as what went before, why is this? this could be the very reason why civilisation crashed in the first place. i'm for starting again from rock bottom and let time take its course, it will be centuries before we get to that stage anyway.
     
  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    this is a copy of something I wrote to a prepping friend back in June 2015 and I will repeat it in its entirety for consideration by members here:
    " we cannot build what went before, if there are enough survivors we can build some form of "community" once the dust settles, but it will be a basic community, everything done by hand or by using horses, ponies or donkeys if we can find them(riding horses are no good for pulling a cart...not trained and too highly strung) if we have enough of a supply of (hand)tools.. scrounge them now ..car boots and markets and hardware stores....and have a supply of heirloom seeds.
    its more likely to be "subsistence" farming more like allotment gardens than open fields and we wont be growing fields of wheat or corn, foraging and snaring, fishing if near the sea, will form the other part of the triangle.
    I have always said keep it simple, trying to set up wind turbines and solar electric systems may be possible for some, I don't have an engineering degree so I'll just stick to getting up when it gets light and going to bed when its too dark to see by.
    you and I grew up before the advent of supermarkets and we ate food that was "in season", if it wasn't in season we didn't have it to eat, both my wife and I have lived "off grid" with no mains electric, water and sewage, many alive today(under 50)have not and will not cope and therefore will not survive, they will not want to survive and I expect the survival rate to rocket immediately WHEN TSHTF. Ben Fogle said on one of his "new lives in the wild" tv programmes " I would not want to survive" and there will be many like that, as we have always said the "die-off" will be huge, maybe slow to begin with but will then escalate.
    even if we (as a nation)could use all the land available (we cant)we can still only grow about 60% of our food-all the rest is imported, that % drops every year as the land becomes less productive ( I saw a NFU report saying as much) without imports we can only feed a fraction of the current population.
    in 1750 when the "industrial revolution" began the population of this country was just over 6 million or about 10% of todays population.
    I BELIEVE IT WILL BE THAT AGAIN ONE DAY".............end quote.
     
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  9. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I agree. Nature has a way of controlling damage, so if the SHTF does not come from humans, it will eventually come from nature. There will be those that will want the electricity grid back up & working, & some may try to achieve that, but after such a catastrophe I think that the majority of sensible thinking people will see that we are probably better off without it, & instead we should embrace a simpler more natural lifestyle. This will not mean no electricity, for hospitals will need electricity, but it will mean a cleaner source of electricity than what the cities are using now.

    I don't think that many people know a lot about the industrial revolution (which started in England), they don't realise just how much was changed. For the people in the cities this may have seemed a great advantage, but for the cottage industry it was a total disaster. Many skills have been lost & forgotten by the majority, these skills & crafts for the most part only exist in 18th century Living History groups worldwide today. I treasure my wife's spinning wheel & looms & her tailoring skills. Maybe our generation will not have a NEED for these skills & crafts again, but I believe future generations will.
    Keith.
     
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  10. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    There will not be a law and order vacuum for long!
    Some group will establish some form of law and order
    and all under there control will pay for it!
    That is the natural order of things!
    Call it what you like, extortion, taxation, tribute, dues, fees whatever
    But it will happen!
    Some may call themselves boss, protector, prince, earl, lord, king whatever.

    It will all boil down to the same thing, a protector class and a working class!
    Good or bad it may be but it will happen

    Keeping your head in the sand or whatever you call your hidey hole will mean you have no say in the direction it takes!
    Quickly establishing your own protection system and a means to pay for it means you can mould it in your way!
    So the protectors serve the people and not the other way!
    Not establishing a protection/defence group will simply invite others to do it with there own ideas on how it should run!
     
  11. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    not for a long time it wont with a vastly reduced population, any "settlements" will be isolated and self contained.
     
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  12. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Look at dark ages England etc!
     
  13. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    different era, the "black death" sorted a few out!!
    anyone who tried to set themselves up as a lord and master probably wont last long, people aren't like the old peasants they wont put up with it for long, if at all.
    as the numbers fell they will find less people to pray on and will fall victim to infighting.
    less people means less food to pillage and take, starvation will soon take its toll, these sorts of people don't know how to grow food, to them it comes in a plastic package, to eat something that comes out of the ground will disgust them, ergo starvation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
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  14. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Most will not need to know as they will be in a work gang soon enough!

    No people are not like the old peasant class they are the new sheeple class minus the fire of the peasants!

    With so few guns in the UK feudal Lords will quickly rise and it will quickly be back to the dark/middle ages!

    With greatly reduced numbers there will be plenty of land to crop and food supply should not be a problem!

    Kings and queens will soon follow!
     
  15. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    you need labour to produce the food, with a reduced population this will mean limited food production, "subsistence farming" will be the order of the day..........duh!!
     
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  16. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    NO
    It just means a larger percentage of people needed to produce the required food!
    Now less than 10% of people are involved in the production and logistics of food!
    With the reduction of mechanization the percentage will rise to 25-30% a long way from subsistence farming!
    Food will travel less with local production and consumption.
    Remove education and within two generations it will degrade to subsistence farming!
     
  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    Britain imports about 40% of its food, without imports of food with the amount of land available we would only be able to feed about 25% of the current population, that decreases every year as the land becomes less productive, without chemicals and fertilisers which are all imported less land can be used. most of the oil is also imported.
    everything will have to be done by hand or if we are lucky using horses and ponies, the amount of food will be vastly reduced as of course will the population.
    we did away with servitude a long time ago in this country, I cannot see anyone putting up with that again, a leader is one thing-if he or she can deliver, but a lord and master? no way.
    it is true not many people are involved in farming now, but 25-30% of a reduced population-possibly 10% of what it was- is still a low number, commercially sized set ups will not exist for many years, people will be growing in allotment sized areas or something like the old "leper" strips, with a lower population we don't need as much food production, just enough for our own needs.
     
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  18. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Servitude will return as it has never really gone! just suppressed out of sight.
    The british have always been rather good at master and slave/peasant setups it seems to come naturally to the fore!
    Some will always want to "LORD" it over others and are not adverse to hiring muscle to enforce it!

    Fortified towns will appear quick with the attendant power structures to suit!
    As mr Lonewolf will be keeping well and truly to him/herself he/she will have no input as to how the new world shapes itself.
    I hope where you are your guess's are right. A king David of Devon might just demand you respect his title and follow his rules and pay your TAX's:eek:
     
  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    keep making it up as you go along, but basing your idea of post SHTF on "The Postman" or "Mad Max" dosent mean it will happen, WHEN TSHTF it will be completely different to anything that went before and will be nothing like what you think it will be.
     
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  20. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    putting the same post on 2 different threads isn't going to prove anything. goodbye.
     
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  21. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Sorry I did not realise you had a monopoly on right!
    I do now!
     
  22. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    in my area of the country i'll be lucky if I SEE another person post SHTF much less have anything to do with them, I live in a very low population area.
     
  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I do a lot of research and have done so for many years, I base my answers on fact not something off the top of my head on the spur of the moment.
     
  24. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    If you are not ready post shtf your going to die it will be years before goverments will be reformed and trusted if you can not grow food what are you going to eat
     
  25. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Seems you have a monopoly on that also!

    I to have researched studied and practiced survivalism for a few years, since mid seventies actually
    I studied and practiced MA for nearly two decades, Aus champ for a fleeting moment!
    I studied and practiced most things pistol for over two decades getting as far as Olympic selection
    I studied and practiced most things long gun for over four decades winning many medals
    I have studied and practiced most things "bush" and still do!
    I currently still study many things

    I deal only in fact
    The only thing off the top of my head is my hat as I am inside at my computer and am not so rude to wear it inside!:oops:
     
  26. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    my point exactly, we have to be proactive and be ready prior to SHTF, not waiting and reacting when the event actually happens and starting doing something post SHTF, that's far too late.
    although I would have said "if your not ready PRE SHTF" you will die.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2016
  27. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I am not sure I want to rebuild "society", no that's not true, I KNOW I don't want to rebuild society not in its current form anyway.
    the reality will probably be that with a vastly reduced population, current thinking 10% or less, it wont be possible to rebuild society much higher than a minimal and basic "community" or village level. anything more than that will be hundreds of years in the making, after all it took humans 2,000+ years to get where we are today.
     
  28. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    The level of society/tech/progress is highly dependant on numbers!
    Any group of less than one hundred or so is doomed to the stoneage after a few generations! as there are insufficient numbers to specialise so everyone needs to do everything for themselves.
    Once numbers climb above several thousands specialists can ply a trade and concentrate on there trade and excel at it! and take on an apprentice!
    The tech will still be low but similar to the middle ages.
    Once society reaches the hundreds of thousands then an industrial revolution is possible similar to early 1800's,
    But it will take many millions to reach 20th century tech again and in the billions for 21st century tech to resume!

    The larger the society you are part of the better things can get!
    How good that society is depends on its members!
     
  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    once the dust has settled and our basic settlements are set up, these will number much less than hundreds-more likely to be in the tens of population than hundreds.
    "specialisation" is what will doom the present "civilisation" to oblivion, what we need are "jack of all trades" not "masters of one", we need to be able to do most things for ourselves, we cannot just assume that others will survive just so that we can have them to assist us.
     
  30. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    Problem with jack of all trades is they are not really any good at any of them!
    and long term they rely on the specialists for there information.
    Without the specialists jacks just become hillbillys!

    As I said before numbers in a society determine the level of tech able to be achieved, the prosperity of the society will determine if that level is achieved!
     
  31. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    don't just assume that the numbers will be large enough to enable one to have the technology they desire, chances are we will go back to a more basic lifestyle, plan for that level and nothing more, if its better than that then your laughing but as our American cousins say "never assume a goddam thing"!!
    expecting to find someone to do a job that we ourselves cannot do is doomed to failure, learn that skill now not after SHTF.
    "specialisation" is what will cause the collapse in the first place, that and globilisation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  32. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    as far as numbers go i'm in a remote rural low population area, numbers are low now, after SHTF they will be miniscule.
     
  33. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    I was speaking of numbers in the society you are part of! that maybe as small as a single person, a village of sixty, a bunch of villages that trade or a whole county!
    A lone survivor if they lived long enough will decend to a grunting caveman, a single family will do little better!
     
  34. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    with the survival rate being as low as 10% or even 5% numbers of survivors will be very low.
    post event I don't expect many, if any, other people to remain here, the ones that survive will leave and go and stay with other relatives, the place is like a ghost town most of the time as it is now.
    survival groups in the UK will consist of solely family "units", whether that is a single person or an extended family. "prepper" groups don't seem to last very long over here, people don't tend to hang around and soon move onto the next "cool" thing.
    a lone survivor has as much chance of surviving as a larger group, its all down to availability of resources, if a single individual has planned well he(or she) will have just as much chance of surviving as a family unit, maybe more, its all about skills and knowledge and knowing ones area very well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
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