Redeploying Europe To "high North", Toward Arctic Areas

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Pragmatist, Sep 1, 2020.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-...id-us-changes-europe-military-presence-2020-8


    Good morning all,

    Per ...

    I believe Canada would say they are the NATO northernmost nation. They claim up toward the Pole.

    Am deferring to the Forum's Alaska delegation as to the picture of USMC 1Lt ___ is getting real cold weather training in that picture. That brown sock hat must mean an unexpected warm day. I've been in cold areas in Russia and froze "up north" even with wool, goose down and fur.

    After Vietnam, when returning to the land of the big PXs, we training in 2 fields, riot control and Cold War reinforcement of Europe. I volunteered to be "if push comes to shove" assigned to the Norwegian/NATO base at Finmark county. ...... I know, in theory, how to use a non X-Y axis map (Omega-Theta grid? [meridians merge when getting high up]). Everyone in the unit laughed at me. A few minutes later, I also laughed at me.

    Was told we wouldn't even get to Europe; we'd be dead.

    A time to laugh and a time to party......................
     
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  2. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Does the USN currently have enough Arctic capable vessel (other than sub) to even operate there?
     
  3. Max rigger

    Max rigger Master Survivalist
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    Some US Marine units train with Norgie forces and UK Royal Marines up in Norway IIRC



    and the brits bit

     
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  4. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Not really.

    Our newer built submarines have a reinforced sail section....sail ..the structure sticking up from the hull of the submarine.

    This reinforced sail is for the purpose of punching through ice...called under ice configuration.

    Not real thick ice ...but thick enough. Where they will punch through is carefully selected for how thick or thin it is.


    Surface ships would need to have reinforced hulls ...particularly at the bow.....to break through ice and on many ships ....warships ..this is where the sonar domes are strategically located under the bows. Not going to work.....you would permanently damage the sonar domes....particularly if you know how they are constructed...assembled.
    I'm not sure many people know this about how and why an icebreaker is built the way it is.

    The goal would be to get our ships just outside the surface area..of the ice and launch aircraft and or drones...weapons from there....satellite control et al.

    Submarine warfare under the ice would be very very dangerous and dicey...with all the ice....masking/limiting sonar operations.

    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
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  5. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    With the words "enough" / "adequate" / "support facility", I am comfortable in saying No.

    Will defer to others who know about the USN's surface fleet as to specifics.
     
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  6. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Max,

    You remembered correctly.

    Some of the Marine guys from here went to Norway.

    I mix up the petroleum towns and the military towns of Norway.

    The Marines fly to Bodo, Norway I think.

    The oil folks, like us, work around Stavanger I think. No map is in front of me - - - You can guess I'm not at peak performance; no map means "badness" shall follow - - - to check of it's Stavanger as hub for their North Sea fields.
     
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  7. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    by the way...even operating outside the ice area is dangerous...pack ice...ice flows..as in what sunk the Titanic...

    You gotta be on your toes up there.

    Watcherchris...
     
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  8. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    When working on the tugs I have broken through up to 13" of ice to make a delivery.

    Generally speaking the Russians are the best equipped with icebreakers.

    The trick to surviving in the cold is to not get hot. If you start sweating you will loose insulation value to your clothing.
     
  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    What are your clothing & clothing material suggestions to folk who get very bad winters, yet not arctic conditions.

    I did a quick web search of merino wool:
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=merino+wool+thermal+underwear&atb=v140-1&ia=web

    To hear people on the web tell it, merino wool is the best. But then they have products to sell don't they!

    What do the folk living in such cold places do to stay warm, but to also protect themselves from moisture to include their own body sweat? Where I'm from (S.Appalachia), it was plain old wool this and wool that. Lord knows that these outdoor shops for yuppies have expensive products.
    .
     
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  10. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Merino wool is awesome. The Norwegian army surplus is great for cold weather and these folks are great to deal with. https://www.varusteleka.com/en There flat rate shipping of $9.99 to the USA isn't bad either.

    158137b02d35f4f74609084ae523ba4d.jpg

    83893626_2771246302954677_722385581899776000_o.jpg

    Good camo can be especially important in snow conditions. These are multicam alpine.

    Dale
     
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  11. Max rigger

    Max rigger Master Survivalist
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    Wool is a very good insulator, smooth non itchy merino makes a very good baselayer. Fleece is also very good but is bulkier and absorbs body odour; that said it does not compress as much as wool when wet so still can keep you warm and fleece is very easy to dry where wool takes an age.

    Cold weather clothing is all about layers, get hot? remove a layer, get cold? add a layer. Scandinavian cold weather surplus is good and their 24 hour ration packs (dehydrated) are among the best you can get. That said the brit 6000 calorie cold weather ration is very good, I've tried them and they are much better than what we were issued a decade or so ago.

    Another important factor, NEVER leave your house/tent/shelter cold, your body will be fighting to get your core temp to where is should be. Make sure you've had a warm drink/food and are toasty warm before going out.
     
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  12. Rebecca

    Rebecca Master Survivalist
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    There is cold, and then there's real cold. Just my observation but all those pictures in the article Pragmatist linked, and in the videos - it's not that cold. I'm sure its absolutely less that pleasant to train in, but you see all that exposed skin, ears, noses,cheeks, fingers to me its somewhere between 0 celcius and minus 20 celcius and little windchill. And before certain people jump on me that is an average winter's day for me so I am used to the layers etc. The closer to minus 20 celcius the more careful you get. Minus 28 celcius onwards becomes really dangerous. Past minus 40 and you should have no exposed skin. As in exposed skin will freeze in 5 minutes or less.

    Everyone probably has some way that the cold gets to them first. With me it's my ears that hurt first so I live in my tuque if I'm outside. The windchill on ears :( but my point is if they are running around in helmets or thin wool caps...or nothing...its not that cold.
     
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  13. Sourdough

    Sourdough "eleutheromaniac"
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    My most exhilarating and refreshing cold experience was 56 (Fahrenheit) below zero, and doing 60 MPH on a snow machine hauling ass on the Glenn Hwy. to a bar near Lake Louise, Alaska to get a nice cold beer. The foolishness of my youth.

    The day before I landed my Cessna 180 (ski equipped) on frozen Lake Louise, right in the middle of a large herd of Caribou, they were sure surprised.

    "Life Is Either a Daring Adventure or Nothing" - Helen Keller
    I often wonder how did I make it to 74 y/o......???


    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  14. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Don't you mean "pushing / nudging" the ice? I seriously doubt any hull could survive "punching" their way of any ice sheet even those made from HY-100 steel reinforced or not.

    Constructing the hull in icebreaker configuration would mean sacrificing manoeuvring ability elsewhere.

    IMO might as well getting rid of the sonar altogether. Its not like you can deploy any towed sonar either

    In rather counter intuitive solution is to use LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) active sonar or laser (LIDAR). But I seriously don't know how much onboard computing power will be needed for filtering out all those grinding ices background noise
     
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  15. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Easy said (and done) when you were 20 - early 30 years old. By the time I've reach late 30 my adventuring days are done
     
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  16. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    Strategically, the north is of critical importance for a variety of reasons. It’s important not only for the abundant mineral and oil resources, but also for National defense. I feel the US greatly under appreciates how important it is. I know China and Russia appreciates this.

    For operating in cold, Caribou hit the nail on the head on not overheating. So layers work best. I am always adding or taking off layers based on what I am doing to avoid getting hot. I prefer a light weight Marino wool or Marino wool blend base layer. The other layers can be wool or synthetic. The outer layer needs to be highly durable and wind and moisture resistant.

    Sourdough, I think I know which bar you are speaking of. I understand it’s for sale.
     
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  17. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    I've been reading that book suggested by one of the members about 'The Mad Trapper " up in the Yukon Territories...and in places it is remarkable that he survived out in that area...with the cold and other conditions. It would have broken me ...

    Hope to finish the book in the next couple of days.


    Varuna...

    Yes...pretty much. Only the sail structure is so reinforced for just that purpose....the sail and perhaps a forward hatch on the hull is what they want to get above the ice.

    In the olde days...when there were wings or what are called....Fairwater Planes the planes had on them a special positioning for breaking through the ice...in that the planes would turn vertical....

    https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/ssn-684-p02.jpg

    Today these planes have been moved way forward on the boats and can fully retract into the hull so they are not an issue in breaking through the ice.

    But no the hull bears little of the brunt of breaking through the ice. No they don't punch through the ice as you see them do in certain promotional videos of them porposing into the air in non iced water...so to speak...it is a slow and careful process...breaking through ice.

    Watcherchris.
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  18. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    It's been interesting to read everyone's post. I've lived in a wide variety of "cold". My current and home state of West Virginia can have a wide variety of temperatures with most winters usually in the 20's or 10's. Not bad considering I've also lived in Colorado and Minnesota with northern Minnesota being stupid type cold most of the winter. As previously stated, learn to wear layers and stay dry. In extreme cold, you get wet you can die. I worked outside in Minnesota in the winter with the warm daytime high temps being in the -20's and cold weather being -40's and a jaw dropping cold spell that hit -67 F.

    I also agree with being warm before going outside. That's not always possible though in survival situations. No different than staying dry at all times while outside is possible. Uncle Sam was kind enough to teach me how to survive the extremes of both of these scenarios. They cut a hole in the ice with a balmy outside temperature of 12 F and we had to jump in. We then used our ice picks to crawl out of the freezing water, while choking out what water we could. Then on our feet and start running to get that core body temp up. Couldn't stop until the cloths we wore was froze stiff (except for the joint areas). Then I built a fire (we all did) and stripped. Work more at beating the ice out of my cloths while convincing myself to not stand in the middle of the fire. Slowly, your cloths warm and dry and you get redressed. A mylar blanket is a God send while doing this.

    Now, for the $50,000 question. Could I do all of that now, at my age and health condition. Honest answer...NO. I couldn't. So I ask myself, how do I prep to deal with life in extreme cold conditions. How I dress will be the same. How I act in the environment will be different. I have to use more caution when traveling in such environments. No walking on unknown frozen lakes or rivers. Use a pole to sound the ice I do have to be on. I have to travel slower or be willing to suffer the consequences.

    We get old. We get injuries. Prepping with those in the plan, improves our lives. Just my opinion.

    Dale
     
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    1. Sourdough
      That is exactly what I am compelled to deal with.....NOW. I have to figure some way forward, now that my wonderful long term SHTF survival plan has expired with my being near 74 y/o. So I am disassembling the massive old system......and unclear of the way forward. All that is abundantly clear is....I first have to make it through this coming winter.

      Maybe I'll write a book: "How to survive in the Alaska wilderness if your Old, deaf and blind".
       
      Sourdough, Sep 2, 2020
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  19. Max rigger

    Max rigger Master Survivalist
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    Another vital factor in staying warm is hydration, Antarctica is the driest place on earth. Every breath you take needs to be 'heated' for the air to work in your system so you go through a lot of fluid just sitting there breathing and heating air in your lungs. Broadly speaking you need as much fluid intake in extreme cold as you do in extreme heat so keep your fluid intake up.

    I'm not enjoying the weather here in Scotland, its cool, damp/rain and high winds, I much prefer winter conditions so I'll be heading home the weekend. Its no fun hiking in the mountains in rain/mist/high winds. Currently gusting 40mph ++
     
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    1. Dalewick
      I spent a week in Antarctica in 85. Not a fan and it was January (middle of there summer) and that week sucked. I still can't understand why anyone pays good money to visit there. Takes all kinds.
       
      Dalewick, Sep 3, 2020
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