Religeon... What Is Its Place In The World?

People, no matter where they live, have always seemed to seek and need some sort of connection to a being or beings greater than themselves. Every culture that I have found has created their own gods and then based on those god's perceived desires shaped their culture. The next thing that they do is then try to force everyone that they encounter to submit and worship their gods.

Believe or not we live in a world that is ruled by people that want to force us to believe as they do. Even atheism has basically become a religion that its proponents want to force on others. A lot of people have the idea that the United States is and was founded to be and is a Christian country. that is false. Very few of the founding fathers were Christian and one of the things that they wanted to avoid at all costs was to repeat the endless wars that were fought in Europe mostly based on religious differences.

The government was set up not only to allow freedom of religion, but it was also equally set up to allow freedom FROM religion. The separation between Church and State was spelled out but even with that effort people just can't be separated from their beliefs. What the constitution and bill of rights try to do is allow personal freedom while also avoiding the chaos that had overwhelmed Europe over and over.

Despite their efforts, we have still had problems. As often as not people here have been free to worship as they wished as long as they did it without letting others know that they were of a different faith. If you were open and not Christian things could get UGLY fast. Check out the early years of the Latterday Saints and why they ended up in Salt Lake if you want to see religious freedom in action. I'm old enough to remember the almost panic that many felt with the election of John Kennedy. there was a lot of fear that we were putting the POPE in power in the US. Before JFK the possibility of a Catholic being elected president was just not considered a possibility. Nixon was a Quaker and that played a part in JFK's election too.

I don't think that it is possible to total separate religion from politics. I'm not even sure that it should be totally avoided. What MUST be avoided though is the idea that if you are American that you HAVE to be ANY specific faith. Down that road there is only chaos death and misery...

 

Bump...The fuze is lit...

 

Ha. Throughout history, many wars, conflicts, and much misery has been in the name of religion.

But then, it was foretold in prophecy long ago who and what would be behind it all, so this should come as no surprise.


.

 

Actually, any serious study will show the purpose of the 1st amendment with regard to religion was put in place to prevent any one Christian sect from being chosen a the state religion. It was never meant to protect muslims or satanists(I repeat myself). The Spanish had catholicism as their state religion while the British were Anglicans. America was supposed to be free for all Christians. There was never supposed to be any "protection from religion" and you will find no mention of such in any of the founding documents. Only recent historical revisionism leads any rational researcher to believe anything else. Too many of the founders directly mention God and/or Christ to realistically believe anything else.

 

Since the beginnings of human history, people have come right up to the edge of dying ... then survive. Many of these people had life after death experiences, also called near-death experiences. In these visions, their ancestors were there to meet them, often times telling them that it was not their time to die. Near-death experiencers often report seeing Holy souls. Christians "see Jesus". Muslims "see Muhammad". Hindus "see Krishna". Short story, they see beings who show them their lives and impart wisdom to them. People come back from this changed. Atheists become believers in God. People who once loved power and money come back and begin caring for other humans and lose their worldly lusts.

So, what did this do to primitive peoples? It caused them to create mythologies to match these visions. To what purpose? How did it help them? The near-deathers often would keep getting dreams in which future events would be shown to them. Their tribe considered this "magic". Predicting the future could save lives. The dreams having visions would instruct on how people should behave to be better people and to please God.

Many cultures including Ancient Rome set up Oracles as places where priests and priestesses would fast and punish their bodies until they had "visions". The purpose being that they wanted to predict the future. During human history there have been Prophets who appear who have been able to predict future events, perform "miracles" (healings for instance), and provide teachings on proper human behavior.

The above stuff resulted in the several religions on Earth being created.

I do not scoff at the above phenomenon. I have had dreams of future evens, have told family what I had seen, subsequently the events have come true, and I've had at least one relative nearly faint (honest to God, she almost hit the floor) when I showed her a newspaper article about an event that had happened the day before, but one which I had told her about a week prior. I had been told about the event in a vivid dream days before.

Me, I think we live in a multidimensional universe ... probably universes. To better explain quantum phenomenon, physicists have developed string theory. Many of you folk have read about string theory. To make string theory happen, one must postulate that we live in a universe of at the very least eleven (11) dimensions. Time and Space are but a few within many. Patients who have died on the operating table but who recovered have told physicians what they were doing in rooms adjacent to the operating suite. They have told their families what they were talking about when they were clinically dead. Mind is now being seen as "non-localized". Mind operates in many dimensions about which we know nothing.

So, what do humans do to explain this? Yes, first you postulate a multi-dimensional universe. But if you are not a physicist, then you start working these phenomenon into some religious paradigm. Such is what our ancient ancestors did. Ancient dogmas and mythologies are the human baggage/trash that gets stuck to religions as they pass through the centuries. Thomas Jefferson created his own bible in which he literally cut out the verses of the Bible that he thought were human contaminations.

 

Interesting discussion. How do you define religion ... theistic ... monotheistic, polytheistic, deistic, atheistic, agnostic, pantheistic, deistic, panentheistic. Rastafarian , pastafarian, and more
.... non theistic ... humanism, communism, materialistic, to name a few.

Everyone is a theologian, whether they recognize it or not. Even an atheist has a theology ... that there is no God. We are good theologians or we are bad theologians it in between but we are theologians.

Everyone has a religion, whether they define it theistically or non-theistically because we all have a world view which encompasses to some degree life, death, the afterlife, morality etc.

The claim that religions have caused more deaths than any other source is often cited but I have never seen any empirical evidence to prove that point, if we take the larger view of religion, like the questions above it is undeniably true.

Not all religions can be true, that doesn’t negate the right of an individual to hold a particular viewpoint sincerely, but let’s never make the assumption that sincerity or right to hold a view is the ultimate arbiter of truth. Every world view has some element of faith, I guess we will see in the end.

We often try and lay off “religion” on primitive humans but let’s not kid ourselves, we wise modern humans are equally as religious as our primitive ancestors, we simply worship at different altars.

 

That in itself is a religious statement.

 

Yeah, and the part where it says that all men are created equal it ONLY refered to white hetrosexuals with a penis too RIGHT?

 

Your statement shows only your ignorance of the historical realities surrounding the foundation of These United States. Jefferson said what he meant and meant what he said. All men are created equal. Let's be honest. At the time, women were not considered equal. ONLY Christianity considered all persons to be of equal value. No other religion or polity did. Many nations and religions still do not consider women equal to men. That is a fact. The founders wee way ahead of their time, but swimming against the tide. Would it have been better to try and make all of the social changes implicit in Jefferson's statement only to have the nation die stillborn? It was politically impossible to make all those changes at once. Jefferson did not say all WHITE men are created equal. He certainly knew about negros and orientals. If he meant to exclude them, he certainly could have. He didn't. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. That is what he said and what many believed.
So, let me ask you a question. Do you know why the 3/5's clause was enacted in the original Constitution. Unless you go google it, I am willing to bet you do not; based entirely upon the quoted. If you do google it, you will be surprised at the true reason and what it's real effect was.

 

TexDanm: While I agree with most of your original post there is one part that is grossly incorrect. You stated that very few of the Founding Fathers were Christian. Almost all of the Founding Fathers were Christian: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and other founding fathers all believed that religion was the source of all morality in our society.They believed very strongly that our inalienable rights were endowed by the Creator, and what God had given no man (government) can take away.

I totally agree they were very guarded about separating Church and State, and making sure there was no State sponsored or mandated religion.

What is religion's place in the world? IMHO it has been a guiding principle for many civilizations. As you stated nearly every culture has created their own gods, or incorporated gods from the peoples they had conquered. Maybe I am giving early man more credit than they are due, but I think they used these gods to explain the things they could not understand, and that mankind has a belief in a higher order than what we can see everyday.

There must be something out there bigger and smarter than we are that makes this all come together.

 

Wow!!!

This is going to be an interesting thread...Buckle Up.

Unfortunately I have some labors to which to attend and will be musing on what so far I have read...

Much to Muse upon..and comment..but it will have to come later.


My Non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

Actually, most of the American founder fathers were deists which is substantively different than orthodox Christianity. Most believed in God, and to some ten5 or another the Bible.they certainly held *for the most part) to Judeo-Christian values. If I recall directly most held memberships in a church, but their personal beliefs did not line up with Christianity. Jefferson for example edited his own version of the Bible emphasizing the moral teachings of Jesus but redacting out large portions.

Personally, I am glad they placed high value on the Scriptures but to call them Christians is to buy into a misconception.

A quick and dirty summary, Christians believe God created everything, is always in control, and that salvation comes through faith in Jesus. Orthodox Christians believe in a trinitarian God.Deists typically view God as creating and winding up the world then just left it be. He isn’t involved. Now there are plenty of nuances beyond that, and varying forms of deism, but this isn’t the place to get wrapped up into a discussion on the finer points of the differences.

 

Good morning Son of Liberty,

Was Jefferson's "merciless Indian Savages" included ?

Recommend reflect on what Tex Dan wrote.

 

I think I use a little more liberal definition of the word Christian. I view it as someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most of what I have read would confirm that.

 

It really depends on what you call the teachings of Jesus. Christianity teaches the creation and fall of man, the trinity of God, the need for a saviour, the impossibility of salvation apart from Christ, the virgin birth, sinless life substitutionary death of Christ, salvation by grace, eternity apart from Christ in eternal torment for non-believers, eternal life with Him for believers. If that’s what you mean by the teachings of Jesus. If you mean strictly his moral teachings then no that isnt Christianity.

I am no expert, but I do hold as seminary degree, am ordained by a conservative Christian denomination, have read literally 1,000s of books on the subject, listened to thousands of sermons across denominational spectrums, preached closed to 1,000 sermons, written more than 3,000 published articles and Bible devotions, taught 100s of hours of Bible study classes and more. The vague idea of following Jesus making one ChristIan, at least in the sense the founding fathers claimed to is erroneous at the deepest possible level.
It’s akin to saying I am a good friend of Donald Trump , when in truth the best I can say is that I know what the media says about him.

Having said all that I can see that by your definition the Founding fathers would be Christian, it just isn’t a valid definition.

 

by Texdanm,

Negative...Texdanm...negative...though they were well aware of the history you describe and the wars that resulted.
What the founders wanted to do is to separate the religion from the state..for they knew that chuch and state combined was what brought about the bondage of a people and nation..resulting in the stagnation of commerce..freedom and liberty. For all freedom is the freedom to enjoy the fruits of your labor/labors....commerce..the ability to buy and or trade for your own profit....for your own reasons....not governmental reasons or government guided by a state church.

Most of the world dwelled under governmental forms which were feudal in nature ...all around the world....most governents were feudal and some variation of god men on earth ruling over people and nations....feudalism.
And while this often resulted in very nice architecture..and buildings..castles to the powerful and wealthy..it did little for the ordinary peon on the street...their plight did not change throughout most of the centuries of written records. A few lived well off the labor and risk taking of the many.

Only a handful of nations were eventually able to break out of this church and state stranglehold over a nations economy.

There is a reason for this and often one not told to most people...they are never to recognize this pattern....ever...
Never are they to be able to have the tools..wisdom or knowledge to think their way through this kind of thing.
A Saint or Mormon has the ability under their religion to treat a non Saint differently than a Saint...a dual system in operation. This is not known by the average American raised to believe that all religions are the same religion and all gods are the same gods....pretty much the message students get in public schools today ..in the name of tolerance and diversity...while some do not practice it at all.

A Jew under their Judiac religion and or Talmud ..can treat a non Jew differently from a Jew. Again a dual set ....of rules for which most people do not know exists.

A Muslim can treat a non Muslim different than a Muslim....under the tenants of their religion and we see this today ...even in open warfare and terrorism..but most people do not know the specifics of why this is so.

A Catholic can treat a non Catholic as a heretic if they so choose under the guidelines of certain aspects of their religion...treat them differently.

Now ....not all people under these religions choose to do this....and treat most people decently ...but I am aware that this is in many religions if the adherents so choose to carry this out to the extent allowed or permitted within the religion.

So you see ...not all religions are indeed the same religion and not all gods are the same god.

This is forbidden knowledge to most people and it goes much deeper than this...I have seen this working within the court systems in this country..by mark, step, sign, and or inscription.

For we, the profane, are never supposed to know or be able to think this far on our own.

Agree ..it is not possible to separate religion from politics...and the reason for this is that if you observe carefully...Politics is in fact morphing into it's own religion.....with devout and very zealous adherents...and a similar dual standard to which I am attempting to describe here.

It is just that the "Hidden and Concealed " Talmudic rules for politics are not for the outer world or profane to ever know.

Again a dual set of rules..one for insiders and one for outsiders.

"I shall ever conceal and never reveal." as the saying goes.


Most people with a television and or movie education have not a clue of what I am speaking..but we do!!!!

And this is part and parcel of the history which will never be taught to the public..the profane...through the public school system.

I ran across it quite by accident ......before realizing the width and breadth of it.

Again...one must be careful...because not all who know what this is ...believe or practice it...to it's fullness.

Same for Latter-day Saints...Jews..or Muslims. Not all believe or practice it.

And Texdanm...I learned to apply this hidden and or concealed knowledge to the Democrats and Republicans both....



By the time 2001 and 2010 the Space Odyssey came out I knew way more than the profane should ever know.

More to come but this is it for this lengthy session.

Watcherchris
not an Ishmaelite.

 

The thing for the members here to know about history..is that in these nations which broke away from these dual rules systems ..wherein there was a standard for royalty..the insiders and another for the outsiders...those nations who broke out of this economic and social stranglehold................these were the nations who were to produce goods and services to benefit the average peon...

It was these nations who were to break out of the Catholic church and state stranglehold which were to go on to produce strong economies...where people could enjoy more of what they produced...by liberty and freedoms not known in other nations.

These nations were ..North Germany...the lowland nations....England and eventually the United States.
It was these nations who were to go on to produce the greatest plenty this world has ever known.

And anywhere else you see plenty being produced in any quantity..it was exported from one of these nations.

Because they put a limit on the power of Church and State combined together. They broke out of the Catholic Church and State relationship...

This will never be taught in most schools today in order to reinforce the concept that all religions are the same religion and all gods are the same god.

It is not so......and as we as a people are ever removed from our religious beliefs....as is the UK today....the economic stagnation will follow as it did under the very zealous religion of Barrack Obama in office and so too the leftists Democrats and phony Republicans.

Our economy stagnated under Obama and his leftist religion...politics of zeal....while trying to cook the books to show something else was happening...something else was to blame..the blame game...

And the left today are still trying to play this blame game...socialists...run amok....for they can do nothing else...so too the phony republicans.....masquerading as conservatives....they too can do nothing else.

And now you know the rest of the story.

Watching the time...gotta run ..but wanted to put this basic outline out there .....


Thanks,
Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

In case some of you do not understand what I am describing here.....

There is no other single factor which will determine the economic status of a people and nation ...outside of their religious beliefs.

And Governments are trying to remove a peoples religious beliefs from the public discourse..

England has been turned, over the years, into a secular even atheist nation.....and their economy follows suit. They have been socially and politically seduced into thinking Brexit was good for them...it turned out not to be so.

And so too was it here with these treaties similar to Brexit.......NAFTA I believe was one of them...in similitude to Brexit.


The Limits on Government.....Limited Government heavily depends on a peoples understanding and guidance from their religion..and this government, like England, has attempted to limit the publics access to their religion in their daily lives....attempted to remove it from public discourse...,from education and replace it with secularism...which is now openly trying to justify anything and everything.

Until Trump And Company we were going rapidly down this road as did the UK...and the Continent..and may yet still go down that road...

I suspect that this is why Trump and Company are so hated even by many in his own party....he is throwing a huge stick in the spokes of this wheel of leftist secularism....run amok.

Governments always try to extend their power and control over their people.....to herd them for more power. This is the history of most governments given sufficient time.


The Limits on Government were always to keep government.....state and church from becoming one power....

Not to limit the publics ability to worship or be daily guided by their religious beliefs.....


Churches should never have a tax number...this is not separation of church and state...but a government subsidy of the churches. It is church and state in bed together....it is Ishmael...bondage of the churches by government.


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchhris

 

FACT whether you like it or not most of the founding fathers were not Christian. they were unitarian. If you will look you will not find the name of Christ mentioned in ANY of the governmental documents. The "Creator" that is called God is the same whether you are a Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or any branch of that line. Christians don't worship god they worship Christ. That is why they are called Christians. Somewhere along the line, they all assume that because they believe that Christ was god that any time anyone mentions god that they MUST be Christians. WRONG. You can worship God and never mention Christ quite well. Jesus managed... but then again that is why there is no Book of Jesus or any of his actual follower's writings allowed in the Catholic made bible.

The funny thing about the name of God is that people are so ignorant that they think that if you say it in a different language you can not be talking about the same individual. In the case of the Abrahamic-Judeo-Christian god There is actually no "Name". Names are for keeping individuals and things labeled when you have more than one. The one time that "God" was asked about his name was by Moses. He asked what his people should call him and the answer given was "Tell them I AM!"...Except at that time god wasn't speaking ENGLISH. Yahweh is basically Hebrew for I am. The later translation to Greek changed it because the letters used were the same but the sounds were not. Hebrew used a J to make the Y sound and a V for the W sound. So the written translation became Jehovah. Both words basically MEAN "I am". Another way to say I am is to say it in another language. In Arabic, I become Allah. That is the way people are. God didn't want a name but got one whether he liked it or not.

Most of the founding fathers were sick and tired of the endless wars fought by the many bastard children that the followers of Abraham had spawned. Europe had been swept over and over with wars and death. Catholics killing the Jews or the Islamic people or the Protestants or the Church of England. Christians were always killing whoever the victim-de-jour that year was. They went biblical and ONLY used words like God and Creator while carefully avoiding specifics when they were writing up the contract that they wanted their new government to have with its people.

The problem with a "Christian" nation is simple. WHICH one? "Christians" don't play well together. Each denomination is positive that THEIR church is the only REAL church and the rest are at best misguided at worst spawns of the Devil. Good Christians tend to kill people that don't agree with their beliefs. Our Founding Fathers were well aware of this and went to extreme effort to prevent our Government being taken over as most in Europe had been done by various Popes and Kings that ruled in the name of god.

If you are a Christian that is fine. Go to the Church of your choice and live a Christian life as you see it should be lead. Understand though that does not give you the right to demand that I live that way or follow your religious rules. Stay out od the Government with religious rules. Failure to do so ALWAYS ends the same way. WAR, DEATH, AND DESTRUCTION of the country. History PROVES that Christian run governments are no better than Islamic run governments. Look at Iran and see the future if the US was every taken over by Christians.

 

@Morgan101 Sorry ... I did in this post what I hate when others do it, I dumped a whole bunch of irrelevant information about my background to drive my point home. It kills dialogue. Normally I am not such an arrogant a$$

 

@TexDanm history proves that all governments are corrupt and destructive, it’s the nature of government. That’s the problem with power and greed it corrupts everything it touches. It almost always starts out with good intentions it just can’t stay there.

 

I did not take it as arrogant, nor did I think it irrelevant. I took it as experienced, and knowledgeable. You have obviously studied the subject more deeply than most of us, and have a little different perspective. My definition, albeit flawed, was a little more simplistic. All good. The dialogue should continue.

 

Texdanm....this cannot be true....and to those who know...have been taught ..it does not make good nonsense...


But it does make good logic and reason unless one has been taught..it is textbook secularism.

The textbook bait and switch so often used today ..in catching people short .is precisely the technique you are using here...and you would be correct in thinking that most people would never catch it.

It matters not whether the Founders were diests or Unitarians...or whatever label one wants to put on it.

What matters is what the people would buy into...and it is not diesm..or Unitarianism...,..

The dominant religion among the American People and to which they would buy into is Christianity....not what the founders determined..

The name Christian came from their opponents...in times past....King Agrippa...to Paul "Almost thou persuadest me to become a Christian." From Acts 26:28.

For those who know...Christ is God manifest in the Flesh..The Word dwelt amongst us....took on flesh....

The technique of the secular world is to separate Christ and God as two distinct separate persons.



This cannot be true Texdanm...not possible...

In Islam....the Muslims are authrorized to kill infidels....non believers and often so do this today...and we see the chaos arising from this different god and different religion. Islam cannot be the same as Christianity.

And remember..this too.....Texdanm....this applied to Roman Catholicism too.....it was permitted to kill a heretic and it was often carried out as evidenced by the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1572 in France..

This also happened in Catholic Ireland wherein the Catholics dragged the Protestants out of their homes and slaughtered them.

This is one reason Oliver Cromwell went into Ireland when the English Civil War was settled.


Christianity is not to be spread by the sword or by burnings...at the stake....

This history is not known by most Christians even today and it should be.

I have John Fox and his "Fox's Book of Martyrs" right here at my computer desk and it outlines the killings that went on in Europe and elsewhere in the name of god...

This is not authorized conduct in the Bible meaning these churches had operated outside the Word and the Candlestick.

Christianity is not to be spread by the sword or burnings at the stake...but Islam is spread by the sword.....even today. And so too it was with Roman Catholicism.

The Jewish Talmud ...religious doctrine is not found in the Olde Testament or the New Testament ...it must be from a source outside both the Olde and New Testaments.

So too is the Jewish occult Kabbalah...

These are not instructions from God TexDanm.....

Sadly ...most Christians are kept ignorant of this knowledge even by their own Ministers.
Most Christians know little history today...even Bible history...sad but true.

The Talmud and Kabbalah are from Occult sources into which the Hebrews/Jews came into contact as they secretly began practicing the religions of the nations surrounding them..and when they went into captivity...in particular in Babylon....
This is often referred to in the Bible as the Jews gone awhoring....whoredoms.....going after other gods...whom their fathers knew not...

And Texdanm...the Jews are still doing it today.....and are even joined in this whoredom by Christians....today...to this very day.

Sad But true....most Christians know none of this history...

All Gods are not the same god..and all religions are not the same religion.


By the way Texdanm.....here is one even most Chritsians do not know..and will never be taught by their ministers...

Jews under the Olde Testament Law are " Ishmael" and not of Isaac.

Read Carefully Galatians Chapter 4...

Concerning the TWo Covenants....and the two brothers ..Ishmael and Isaac.

"
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



Paul is talking about Mt Sinai....wherein was given the Tablets...the Ten Commandments...the Olde Testament Law..and that this is Hagar....and her children..and gendereth to bondage...with her children.
Ishmael...the line of Ishmael.

Whenever I detect someone trying to introduce different doctrine from what is in the Word....or such....I detect Ishmael....

Some one is trying to bring in an Ishmaelite.

If you are trained in it....you can spot "All religions are the same religion and all gods are the same god as being of Ishmael....Ishmaelites run wild..

And this is precisely why someone does not want any Bible or Bible Truth to be allowed in public discourse and in public schools.....because someone might figure out that they do not want to allow any competition for the infiltration of the line of Ishmael that they are sneaking into public education....across this nation.

We are to be separated from our Religion in every capacity that can be managed...that we be not able to recognize any Ishmaelite or Ishmaelite doctrine when confronted by it.

And many Churches today are switching from the path or line of Isaac to Ishmael without many in the congregations knowing or realizing it is happening.
They are willingly losing their candlestick.


My non Ishmaelite .02,
Watcherchris

 

Thanks for the gracious response

 

Innkeeper,

To my limited knowledge...all. governments in attempting to increase their power over people and nations....must always go to the ultimate power.

This means that governments must be able to extract the ultimate penalty for trespassing against their attempts at ultimate power.

The ultimate penalty is to keep people from challenging their quest for ultimate power.

So what is the ultimate penalty such that a people will not challenge their quest for ultimate power?


Ultimate power here being the ability to extract from people their production ....unlimited....any and everything...for which they labor...even their very lives.


What is the ultimate penalty they can extract on their way to ultimate power????

Find a teacher who will teach this in public schools!!


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite