Societal Collapse.

Discussion in 'Other Not Listed Situations' started by lonewolf, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    We are in a situation now where we are so specialised that it is virtually impossible to realise our level of technology without the infrastructure to support it.
    Whereas in the past a state might fall the effect was short lived because it only affected that single state.
    We are so interconnected now that the whole world would be affected if our civilisation collapses, we have built a monumental "house of cards" held together by worldwide connections that are very fragile to disruption.
    The earth only has resources for an advanced technology situation to be a one time event, mother nature very rarely gives two bites of the cherry.
    We either sort these problems out now or we are going to lose it all and for good.
    This new fangled "civilisation" thing has only been around for 5000 years or so(depending on what you call civilisation) and for 90% of our time on the planet humans have lived as hunter/gatherers, if we lose it all we will -probably- survive as a species but at a reduced level, it should also be noted that over 90% of all species that lived on planet Earth have become extinct.
     
  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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  3. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    Our infrastructure is indeed very fragile for many reasons, including your point of specialization. Disruption could be from something as simple as a hack of a computer system like with the colonial pipeline up to a significant CME taking world wide systems down. The fact that we are specialized, if we have a disruption in the ability of that specialized knowledge worker to apply their knowledge, this certainly compounds the problem.

    While I disagree a bit on your assessment of scarce resources (Alaska has abundant rare earth minerals, oil, natural gas, coal, among others, cut environmental politics prevents exploitation), the point is that if we have a major disruption in supply from other sources, it would take many years to brings much of this to market. Additionally, much of our specialized infrastructure takes years to build even assuming you had access to the material and a workforce and distribution system to make it work.

    Our infrastructure and our ability to make it all work is more fragile than most recognize.
     
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  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Meanwhile, the biden administration is shutting down pipelines faster than any crew of hackers could do.

    If socialists are so pro-worker, why do they kill so many jobs?

    Schizophrenia? In biden's case, its ETOH-induced dementia. He supposedly went cold turkey, saying that there were already too many alcoholics in his family. Yet, one can wait until it is too late. Damage done is damage done. Aging on top of an already compromised CNS spells disaster. With a healthy brain and no viral nor ETOH damage, the brain can keep on keeping-on well into one's 80's, even 90's. Give it a blood supply and it will work on and on.

    Alcoholism is pandemic in the attorney profession and who is it that runs the Congressional and Executive branches of government? Attorneys.

    Washington D.C. = "Sots R Us"
    .
     
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  5. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    We in North America are still FULL of resources. Our coastal waters are FULL of resources.

    However, humans are insufficiently evolved to organize the usage of this bounty. An average IQ of 100 doesn't cut it ... at all. The inability of most people's frontal lobes to squash their glandular desires is a fatal flaw with our species.

    The arrogance of our species is the final nail in the human race coffin.

    Hopefully after the upcoming SHTF cullings, the genetics will be improved.

    I'm not holding my breath on that one. And also, there is that pesky problem for me of being too old to see any Promised Land. Well hopefully, intelligent, humble, dedicated youth will survive the plagues and Armageddons in the immediate future and will use the knowledge stored in surviving paper libraries to rebuild something better in the way of civilization. We can pray for them. I'll pray for them ... from the other side. And that's OK. Call me Moses.

    "What happened to Old Geezer?"

    "He went down fighting."
    .
     
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  6. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I wonder if those resources are as abundant as you think, and how does anyone access those resources post SHTF without access to electricity and fuel.
     
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  7. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I imagine that it is a certainty that mankind will become extinct, why would be any different from other species in this? It is a certainty that we are stripping out the earth's resources at an unprecedented rate and that there are not any more to be had, once they are all used and therein lies our coming challenge.

    Without the earth's current resources mankind will be unable to survive in his present numbers. Throw in a few wild cards, say climate change for example, that may affect agriculture and we could be in the most fragile of situations.

    I adhere to the view that it is probably too late to save us and that mankind has already reached his zenith - probably late in the post war period of the twentieth century but, of course, only time will tell and those of us that are alive now will have long passed before that history is written from far enough of a distance to be truly reflective.

    Sadly, I am of the opinion that we cannot, ultimately, save ourselves. When oil has gone and mineral extraction has become beyond economic reach I believe we will start to slip backwards technologically. Those who survive (I suspect the population will naturally decrease, rather than face a "wipeout"scenario - although I would not rule that out, otherwise why prep?) will most likely remain as traditional farmsteaders, probably with the technological level of around the 16th century, and I suspect the world will be a better place for that.

    The biggest threat we face? I would say probably climate change. Irrespective of whether one believes, or accepts, that climate change is man made (or exacerbated by man kind) it is an inalienable and long proven fact that climate changes over time. We have had the good fortune to live in times when the climate has been relatively benign. In geological terms it was not that long ago when early humans faced the last ice age (ice ages come and go, geologically the earth is a glacial planet with "interglacial" warm periods). Faced with another ice age those humans who are alive then would have a very hard time, maybe even become extinct at that point (although humans have survived at least one ice age previously).

    So what to do? Be sensible and conserve the world's resources on a personal basis - we never know when we might need them - be independent wherever possible and be prepared for all eventualities.
     
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  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    we have to remember that 90% of all the species that have lived on planet earth are now extinct, why should humans be any different? just because we have a brain dosent make us immune probably the opposite in fact.
    as for SHTF I have always thought that it will be a slow progressing thing rather than one big bang and all over, may be so slow that some people wont see what is happening until too late, a bit like the conversation on climate change currently.
    7 BILLION humans on the planet and rising? thats too many for one little rock in space, something has to give and soon.
    we can only rip out the resources of the planet for so long, they are not being replaced and once they are gone they are gone for good, the circumstances that made them in the first place no longer exist and will not for millions of years if the earth survives that long that is.
    I am of the opinion that humans will have to revert to an earlier agrarian way of life if they are to survive at all, once the "oil age" is over we wont have any choice in the matter .
     
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  9. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    "I am of the opinion that humans will have to revert to an earlier agrarian way of life if they are to survive at all, once the "oil age" is over we wont have any choice in the matter"

    That is the truth of the matter, we cannot have what we have now when we reach that point. There are no viable alternatives at present and, it seems very unlikely that a viable alternative can be found in the required quantities to prevent the end of the "oil age" being a humanitarian disaster.
     
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    the Stone age, the Bronze age and the Iron age were much longer than the "oil age" will ever be, to revert to an agrarian lifestyle the population will have to be reduced-hopefully by natural wastage rather than wars or conflicts.
    we cannot feed the vast populations the world has today without the commercial or chemical products of todays oil industry, many of which are by products.
    for instance Britain cannot feed todays population of 66 million and rising without the imports on which we rely as a nation. remove or lose the imports and life will HAVE be very different.
     
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  11. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Technically if a country cannot feed itself (and the UK is one of many) then it is, theoretically, either overpopulated or its agriculture is mismanaged.
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    With 1910 technology, America's Heartland would get by just fine. Getting that food to the cities and therein distributing it, now that could present a problem.

    We pumped oil and burned coal to make electricity with bulky, crude technology over 100 years ago. We had no semi-conductors back then, don't'cha'know. In our linear circuit classes, we had to build our own tube-type transmitters. Crude works and post-SHTF it will again be employed.

    Population numbers are going to take a hit during the SHTF "festivities".

    Arable land? Here is where it lies. Seems that most of it is where the fewest people live. This is why Western nations must STOP taking-in the hordes from countries where overpopulation is rampant.

    upload_2021-5-15_15-8-56.png

    This data is from the World Bank
    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.ARBL.HA.PC?end=2018&start=1961&view=chart

    World-wide, arable land per capita is dropping. This is of course due to most people of the world breeding like bunnies. We in the West have brought down our reproductive rates and by a whole lot. We must not now defeat this positive effect by opening the gates to the limitless masses.

    upload_2021-5-15_15-11-56.png

    upload_2021-5-15_15-16-12.png
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    If a country has agriculture AND fuel reserves, then it has a greater chance of survival. Russia sure is sitting pretty. Another reason Russia wishes to dominate Ukraine is due to Ukraine's being a breadbasket country -- it's not just that it has Russia's Black Sea primary port. If Ukraine really acts-up, Russia will invade.

    World-wide, here is where the energy comes from:

    upload_2021-5-15_15-19-55.png

    upload_2021-5-15_15-20-43.png

    Note that China has been trying to dig coal like crazy to keep up with their industrial needs. China sucks as much coal out of regional nations as it can. China has recently been threatening Australia. Australia has questioned China's release of C19 virus, so China has put its boot on the neck of Australia and told them to shut up, or else.

    https://www.reuters.com/business/en...g-despite-costly-coal-ban-russell-2021-05-11/
    .
     
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    OR BOTH!!
     
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  15. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    it could very easily both.
     
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  16. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    Britain is 61% self sufficient in food, the other 39% is imported-half from Europe the other half from all over the world, if Britain had to go without importing food during a major event and we started on January 1st given the current population levels we would run out of food by the second week of August, and thats just not me staying that, that is an official report by the President of the British N.F.U.
     
  17. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Mind you I would guess that a fair proportion of UK citizens do eat 39% more than they should do to stay healthy ;)
     
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  18. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    some of the portion sizes are just ridiculous, no wonder more than half of the UK population is obese.
     
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  19. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    People that live in the major urban area will starve fast but the people in the suburbs and farther out into the rural areas will only starve if they are too stupid to start a garden. My Dad used to grow a big garden in his back yard and in a bind he could have fed himself and my Mom out of that after the first year. Getting it in and the first harvest will be the hungry time.

    I could make a living in the woods. I will eat anything and most people that starve because they got lost in the woods died of stupidity. We normally eat on the top of the food chain but there are a lot more things on the lower end and they are generally easy to gather. If you will fast for about three days your metabolism will slow and you really stop having much severe hunger. After that you can eat a lot less and feel good with it.

    I have done this several times. Usually I fast for a week with no issues. I have done one the went for 16 days. People are a lot tougher than they think. Our eating habits are more based on habit than actual need. My Mom was one of those people that was just sure that she would starve to death if she missed a meal. It drove her crazy when I would just stop eating for a week or so. LOL and added benefit!

    I do this because I have a massively efficient metabolism and I can’t lose weight dieting. I stayed on a 1000 calorie diet for two weeks one time and gained a pound and a half. I normally only eat once it isn’t a big deal if I miss a meal or two.I am big but manage my weight well at about 210. I'm 6'2" and built extra large with a 45+ inch chest. I have always felt that knowing this would be a major plus in a survival situation. Panic and doing stupid things will b THE big killer if things go splat.

    It is pretty suprising how many eatable things are available, often even in an urban environment. Knowing what is good to eat that isn't normally considdered food for people can be a leg up on any competition.
     
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  20. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    When times are lean, you can fool your body into thinking you've eaten more.

    Spice up your foods with lots of flavorings. Forage for greens during spring and summer. On this site, there have been dozens/hundreds of posts concerning wild greens. Boil up your greens and spice the dickens out of them. Throw in what meat you want to spare to give it even more flavor.

    My folk used to "kill" lettuce. This is the pouring of grease over lettuce. If you want to stretch what food you have, this works. When trying to live 'til next week, lard is gold.

    People used to stretch their coffee with chicory, which grows everywhere. Chicory is considered a weed ... but then so are a whole lot of edible plants.



    upload_2021-5-16_21-1-4.png
     
  21. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    my father used to grow a lot of our own food in just a small garden area and a lean to greenhouse, I've had allotments most of my adult life, but sadly in the 21st century Britain has changed from a nation of gardeners to a nation of shoppers, very few people garden any more and its mostly the older generation and its that generation who knows what food is supposed to taste like.
    in a societal collapse I doubt few people would know what food looks like if its not wrapped in plastic much less know what wild food looks like.
     
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  22. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    If society collapsed today before the sun went down , my group would have no need of my neighbors or community . My biggest problem , I suspect would be people wanting to get to our survival retreat for sanctuary . Our preps go way beyond just hiding a few items so nobody will know we are prepared . I had a guy walk up to my house , glance around the premises and say " I had a Uncle that did like this " . My suspicions of desperate people trying to reach us is not based on people living within the county but people traveling hundreds of miles to reach us . Our survival retreat is already a favorite vacation spot for some . Actually just a little over a week ago I had a guy spend the weekend here . As he left our discussion turned to the bloodhound laying in my yard and his ability to trail man or beast .
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    if society collapsed over night we would have no time for neighbours or community, neither of which would exist for more than a few weeks.
    looking at our place you would not know we are prepared.
     
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