There seems to have been a can of worms opened on another thread dealing with stealing in a S.H.T.F. situation . I would like to see a show of hands of those on here that either or planning to steal or would steal if they found themselves in a desperate situation . Or you in the steal club or the no steal club or maybe steal club ?
We could play with semantics here and try and differentiate between stealing, looting, appropriating and scavenging but I won’t. People who draw a hard line and say “I would never do that” are kidding themselves. Every person is capable of killing, stealing etc in the right (wrong?) circumstances. As a retired Christian pastor I work very hard at having a very stringent code of ethics and to the best of my ability would strive to maintain them even in a SHTF or WROL situation but the human heart is deceitful and I have seen the most unlikely of people do things that violate every principle they ever lived by. Desperate people do desperate things. If you would rather your family died than violate someone else’s property you are a better man than I am. Would I do everything I could to avoid having to do so? Yes. Would it be right? No, but which is the lesser evil? I hope I am never placed in the place where I have to decide
I'll not attempt to justify or rationalize it, nor sugar coat it. If deemed necessary I will do whatever is required to preserve the life of those who have entrusted that duty to me.
Define "stealing" vs "scavenging". Will I break into an occupied dwelling and take stuff from people living there? No. Will I comb through ruins to gather materials I might need? Definitely. The thing to decide is where the line is.
I am approaching seventy years old and have never stolen a thing in my entire life . I can't see myself stealing under any circumstances . Just the way I was raised , with strong moral values . I would kill much quicker than steal .
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have. The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess he had it coming. Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid. From the movie: "The UNFORGIVEN"
Fortunately, taking another human life is a lot harder than most think. That's why most criminals have to work up to it and soldiers are intensively trained to do it. Dale
To make stealing and killing easier, we find something to hate or find weak in the party to whom our aggression is soon to fall upon. In a wolf pack, should one wolf become weak or is injured, the other wolves gather-'round to nurse the injured wolf back to health, right? Wrong. They tear the weak to pieces. It is genetic in the wolf. It is genetic in us. Killing one's enemies is addictive. It is the true reason why God forbids murder -- it is too pleasurable. God certainly doesn't care about the extinction of lives, of species, of planets. People fantasize about rape -- males and females; giving and getting. These people are your friends and neighbors. These people vote. Beware of humans in the raw. Even when washed and shaven and clothed, they are two unsnapped buttons away from growing back their fangs.
Yep, as a pastor I have worked with LEO’s, soldiers, criminals and accident survivors who have killed someone. No one is left unscarred when it happens even if there was no alternative. I am also ex military and believe I could take a life if I had to but I suspect I’d be puking my guts out after. Even if they was no other choice, I suspect it would be something I would struggle with. I see so many posts where people have the attitude that it’s easy to kill , or easy to just “let someone die”. Either they have never been around to see it happen or they are sociopaths/psychopaths. I have seen a lot of people die, including some very violent gruesome stuff. It’s not easy, even if they brought it on themselves. I see so many kids today celebrating death, wearing skulls etc, I just want to ask them about their familiarity with death in real life. It is a natural part of life, and sometimes even a relief, but it sure isn’t anything to celebrate. Many I am too sensitive or just not a “tough” as some people claim to be, or maybe they are not as attached to reality as they pretend
A lot of the time those "kids celebrating death" have most likely never even seen a dead human body, let alone sat with someone while they died. Its definitely not what they make it out to be. But they will learn, eventually. I have never killed anyone or left them to die. But, in a WROL situation, mentally I have prepared and already know what will happen to anyone posing a serious threat to myself or my husband. But again... reactions in the heat of the moment are sometimes different from what you expect of yourself. On the topic of stealing, to split it into looting or scavenging makes it seem more justifiable to me personally. Scavenging abandoned items sounds much better. But in the end stealing is stealing. But then again, to keep myself or my husband alive, there is nothing I wouldn't steal in a SHTF situation.
I'm only impacted emotionally by the deaths of those I love. Have had way too much of that. I've watched a guy die and continued with my meal. Wasn't pretty, that one, yet his demise didn't end my appetite. Shame, the man was quite young.
My own ethics , I could not see myself pulling the trigger on somebody if I caught them stealing from me if they were only doing what I would do in their situation . That is one reason I draw a line between stealing and killing . I would pull the trigger on a thief in a S.H.T.F. situation . I would not let my family starve because I was to week to defend our prepping supplies .
Similar situation for me . I ate lunch while I watched helicopters circling some trapped N.V.A. , cutting them down with machine guns .
Well my friend, that makes you either rare or full of it. I will go with rare. I have talked with veterans from Stalingrad, North Africa, Europe, south east Asia, various mercenary conflicts in Africa, Rhodesia and elsewhere, as well as cops who have killed and felons who killed, and while in the moment some were quite hardened to death and some even enjoyed the adrenaline, all admitted it changed them and none for the good. I too have finished a meal while somebody bled out but that doesn’t mean it didn’t impact me. I actually feel quite sorry for you, if your hardness of heart is something you seem proud of. You might be alive but you are missing much of life. I recognize that you don’t care about my perspective but c’est lavie, I felt compelled to share it
Good afternoon Poltiregist, Substitute the term "criminal act" for "steal" for clarity. I can then say that after the SHTF situation, during the recovery phase, the drones' audio-visual collections will be collected and certain cases developed.
Stealing and killing can be situational appropriate responses. Defense of life and property, killing can be the appropriate response. WROL - SHTF and the need to steal medical supplies could be a life or death situation. Until you have watched a loved one die, because you were unwilling to save them, then you really don't know what you would do. You are just speculating, based on our current belief. If you have properly prepped, then it is not too likely you will have to face these decisions, but we can never be sure Mr. Murphy does not have some nasty tricks waiting for us.
Morality is going to take a beating in any long term disaster situation. There are just times when survival means doing what you HAVE to do to survive. If you chose to die rather than adapt that will be totally each person decision. Taking what I HAVE to have to survive, even if you have plenty is nonetheless stealing BUT, if you have a hundred chickens and I have one starving child I will happily steal one of those chickens if that is the only way that I can feed that child. If I'm freezing to death and you are dead I will steal that warm coat right off your dead body. Scavenging after TEOTWAWKI is stealing but it is also what people that want to survive are going to do. TEOTWAWKI means that the world has changed. that change will be in ALL things and to adapt is to survive while refusing to change will kill you. I don't think that I will take from another what they need to live but if I am starving and you have an excess, if I have no other choice, I'm going to live!
As people age death visits itself onto them over and over. You watch those that you love get older and older and eventually they die. Many of us lose friends and siblings and if you go to war death becomes quite close and personal. Over time you will become somewhat less sensitive. Empathy is a very human emotion but it also causes a lot of pain. MANY people can't imagine going out and in cold blood killing an animal that they raised to eat for supper. If you do it pretty often it ceases meaning as much to you and you distance yourself from it. How much you wet this aside varies from person to person and time to time. It also is often not as you think from looking at or listening to what people say or do. Sometimes people, especially men, hide their feelings. Sometimes if the pain is too much they even hide it from themselves.
I would have to be pretty hard up to steal someone else's stuff. If I had no food or water for some reason I would take the minimum I needed to survive, I would not steal their whole stash. Taking from deserted homes is another matter, it will waste if not used. Being off grid I do not expect this situation to arise. Keith.
[ I agree with all of what you said. I have seen a lot of death up close and personal, family members, close friends and total strangers. I have hunted and fished for my food. I have killed and butchered animals I grew attached to. I have put down well loved family members. I do know that different people handle it differently and in some circumstances it is easier to deal with than others. You talked of men hiding their feelings, even from themselves at times because of the pain, it is these men my heart breaks for because the pain cuts part of them off from freedom in life. Too many end up burying the pain in alcohol or drugs, end up in broken and/or abusive relationships an/or homeless. Too many end up with survivors guilt issues. I have friends and family members who ended up this way. They carry the pain, the dead do not. My initial point was that other than a sociopath/psychopath no one kills another human and remains unchanged. I don’t doubt in any way that killing someone sometimes is the only option to protect life, liberty and even property. I am grateful for those who have served and who do hard things. On the other hand, I have talked with friends who when asked claim they wouldn't kill even to save a loved ones life. They are the opposite side of the its so easy to kill coin. Life is seldom as easy and clean as we want it to be.
You left out "sociopath". There is every possibility that I am a bit sociopathic. As to hardness of heart, that was God's doing. As to missing much of life, I wish I had missed more. Regrets? I wish I could have learned what a normal life was.
I wish you could have learned that too, but then we would have to define “normal” ... and I am not qualified to do that
This forum seems to have a lot of threads that get steered into this killing of humans subject content.
Just a quick reminder here not to get too personal in your comments. If anyone comes across a post they don't like, just ignore it. Keith.
I just think in Britain that stealing post SHTF from other families is not on, its also a waste of time as they aren't going to have much in the first place. to me prepping is not about stealing, prepping is about self sufficiency, self reliance and being self supporting.
Good morning Lone Wolf, Somewhere above, I asked (as per thinking) to change the word "steal" to the term "criminal act". I agree with you that prepping is not about "stealing" and about self-sufficiency. One major aspect of prepping is evacuation planning. "Appropriating" an aircraft or blue water boat remains a crime. We've had the aircraft hijackings and the modern piracy in recent times during disasters. Post SHTF / Recovery Phase of disaster encompasses reviews of events. In the US, the Federal Rules of Evidence need not apply.
I totally agree with LONEWOLF on this . This should also apply to the U.S. . How someone can claim to be a prepper but think they may run out of supplies while their neighbor is still doing fine and has things they covet is beyond me . I can also agree with KEITH's thoughts on taking stuff from a deserted home ", if it was apparent the owner was not coming back " , but find it unlikely anything of much use would be found in a deserted home . If I had a neighbor that had died that had no close by heirs then I could see checking out anything they may have left behind .
post SHTF when its WROL its a case of "anything can happen", but I feel stealing from another family apart from being wrong most people (the masses)aren't going to have much food or anything else for that matter because they don't prepare, so its a bit of a wasted effort to even try. I expect to see some looting in the inner cities when the event happens, we have seen this in the past with the "London Riots".
in a TEOTWAWKI it's wrong to steal from another family, what about a business? or a government entity?
RANDY I can agree that is a gray area . For most truly apocalypse situations there will not be any running vehicles for various reasons . So that would not be a decision many would have to make , simply because we are in a area with no nearby businesses .
I actually have learned something from this thread . The two guys we have on here that are not religious or believe in a GOD of any sort have stronger moral values than our CHRISTIAN members .
Not planning on it, but realize I probably would under some circumstances. Consider it in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the higher order needs like morality and respect for others property might go out the window when basic physiological needs like food or water aren't met. I've never gone without food for over about 48 hours in my life, not sure what I might be thinking or what my mind might rationalize as acceptable if I hadn't eaten for a week or two. Ditto if having to watch someone I love slowly starve. But that's one reason why I prepare, so I hopefully never find out.
[ Actually, I think it’s that the non-religious guys are not acknowledging the truth. If they say that they would rather watch their family die than “steal” something (however we choose to define it), I think they are being dishonest with themselves. Someone said they had never stolen a thing in their life ( I don’t recall who) ... have they ever come in to work 10 minutes late or taken 5 extra minutes for coffee break? Taken home office supplies from work? If so they stole from their employer. Have they ever fudged, even a little on their taxes! That’s theft. I suspect they would salvage something that appears abandoned, that is technically theft. Stealing in whatever form is way down my list, but in a life or death situation. I can think of a personal situation, we were camping and friend cut his leg severely with arterial bleeding. The truck wouldn’t start, so we took one from another campsite without permission to get him to the hospital. We returned the truck after and offered to pay for its use, but the very act of taking it without permission was technically an act of theft. Ergo, I know from experience I am a thief. Would I do it again in similar circumstances? Yes. If you tell me you wouldn’t, you can keep the morals and not camp with me. Would I go into a store and shoplift in ordinary circumstances? No. Would I steal money from the till ? No. Would I fudge my taxes? Not even a nickel. Would I steal to save a life? You bet. I can live with that if it’s a moral failure.
For any that might be contemplating stealing their neighbors livestock , don't make the mistake off thinking they will not blow your head off or hang you from a bridge or tree limb . Land owners will view their property and any food source wild or domestic as theirs and anyone caught trespassing may be executed .
There are always consequences to every action. I’d shoot you for trying to steal my livestock. I’d be very surprised if there was anyone here who would not expect that.
INNkeeper I mention this because I have come across more than one person that claimed to be a prepper . That stealing livestock was part of their survival plan . I got the impression that they thought this would be an acceptable practice in a apocalyptic event .
Good afternoon Innkeeper, It just might be vice-versa. Some place their own life in jeopardy to save some stranger. Doesn't theft require intent ? The extended coffee break might yield a better work product. Is it anti-religion to violate a "law" that has a large enough recognition as being evil ? I don't know about Canada but in some US states - Virginia is one - your appropriated vehicle example is sometimes accepted as lawful. Here, you can now drive across double solid lines on a road if allows the driver to avoid running over someone hurt on the road. (This traffic law is only about 3 years old !) ...... Other post; somewhere else - lost track of location: Some humans - ... Saw much of this during a career in Asia ... do not have a super-ego. They can end a human life - a homicide - as a matter of routine. ...... I've stopped writing (nagging ?) here at MSF to "write it down" and then attempt to inform the "authorities". Taking the truck could be acceptable. Cleaning out the inventory of a pharmacy won't work even if writing it down in italics on Tiffany & Co. stationery. ...... "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann 1875 - 1955
If survival was a game I would not even consider stealing from anyone. If everything is normal I'm NOT a thief. If my life and the life of my family is dancing on the head of a pin about pointless moral issues then I am going to survive because I am going to adapt. I understand where Lonewolf is coming from. he lives in a country where historically ALL game was owned by the King and even if you were starving it was against the law to hunt. There were also strict rules about gathering wood and stealing it from the king's forests. Generation after generation people that couldn't deal with this LEFT or were forcibly shipped out of the country. Everyone knows about Australia and how it was used for this but the US was used this way until the American Revolution put an end to it. I believe that one line of my family came to America from Brittian via the New Georgia Penal colony. Britts are in general a much more "civilized" group of people that Americans. This is why we still have our guns and freedoms and conversely why the British are having so much hell handling the Islamic immigrants. The cops are not even prepared to deal with the reality of uncivilized behavior. Can you imagine sending a cop into the streets of Detroit or Chicago with only a whistle??? They would eat them ALIVE! All of this said it is no wonder that Lonewolf has a different take on things like this. Where most Americans live they KNOW that if they don't defend their stuff that someone will come and steal it. We are also a lot less likely to chose to starve to death rather than take what we HAVE to have from others if they either have plenty or are DEAD and don't need it at all. we know that we are going to steal wood from other peoples property, hunt on land that we don't own and if cattle are roaming all over the place we are going to eat them even though they are not ours. We are uncivilized like that...
Good afternoon The Innkeeper, Rev !!!!!! "Problematic" ?!?! Besides preppers and their prepper doctrines and protocols, there are illegal paramilitaries, gangs, criminal orgs. , ... They unlawfully train about theft and pilferage. Not preppers ! I'm hoping sarcasm was involved that I missed.
