this thread is about doing something that you would never do but circumstances changed. Can you imagine the Rugby team that crashed into the Andes had to go through? here's a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguayan_Air_Force_Flight_571
People always assume that the world as they see it is as it is everywhere and as it has always been. People especially like to lie to themselves about the true nature of the beast that is called man. Humans are by nature and instinct KILLERS. Even when there is no real reason to do it we will travel thousands of miles to fight ith and kill people that we have never met. The ultimate predator is a man. All the other critters throughout history have not killed even a tenth as many people as people have killed. Even the deadly mosquito is a piker up beside the willful viciousness that is just under the surface of mankind. We in the more civilized countries are insulated from death. It is sanitized and held at a distance. Even with that, when we go to war we shed that amazingly quickly. When people start dealing with death on a regular basis it becomes rather ordinary. Up until less than a hundred years ago, a good public execution would drag in people from miles around to watch. If it was legal some form of gladiatorial combat to the death would be the number one sport. Boxing and Mixed martial arts bouts are just a couple of people trying to come as close as possible to beat each other to death and in the end, they are often more successful than people acknowledge. The long term results of endless head injuries are not pretty and are terminal. When EVER a society falls apart the members of that society revert to man101. When Katrina roll in and then out looters and killers ruled the streets. Thousands died and it took an armed response from the National Guard to return it to some semblance of "normal". That is the reality that we will have to deal with if we want to survive an end of the world as we know it event. If you are not prepared for this and prepared to respond in kind to attackers then you will be better off dying fast because you are not going to like the world after the fall AT ALL. The good news for those of us prepared to deal with this is that in short order the truly evil among us that like to harm others will be killed. There is a difference between a preditor and a rabid animal. A preditor kills when he has to. He does it well and without a lot of emotional trash. A rabid sick killer does it for pleasure or out of just not caring about anyone. The survivors will be the preditors. Those that can't accept it won't last long. If you hesitate and have to debate in a life or death situation you are not going to make it. The quick and the dead is a reality when the padding comes off and society crumbles.
Think about the rule: "Is anybody going to make use of this? Is anybody going to come back for this?" If somebody else is the owner and he's coming back or his family could come back for it, then it obviously does not belong to you and you should leave it for the owner. Should the item be dangerous were it to fall into the hands of the inferior looters, then you should secure it for the owner as long as it is possible for you to do so. The stealing I'm most concerned about is thievery directed my family's way. In our honor-less world today -- in this world where people believe the material world to be the only world -- rioting, looting and armed robberies are but a minor SHTF event away. The reason survival forums include discussions of firearms is due to the reality that whenever people panic, violence -- no small amount of violence -- follows. And then too, many testosterone-motivated lower order humans enjoy violence. People who wish to survive must have the ability to engage multiple assailants bent on wiping out your family's stores of food. And don't walk around in designer tennis shoes or their efforts will be quadrupled to rip them off your feet after they have beaten you to death. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...9CB2F4B4F7FBF260496E9CB2F4B4F7FB&&FORM=VRDGAR As to the above video, you may wish to copy and keep the link. The communist media is scrubbing the web of videos showing the racial violence that was omnipresent during the riots of L.A. 1992. YouTube makes you sign-in to see such videos. YouTube is run by collectivists and wish to track viewer data for use in election-engineering / propaganda-targeting. For instance, one can find on YouTube Korean merchants firing rounds to defend their businesses, however the videos of carloads of gang members shooting at the Koreans have been scrubbed. Puerto Rico post hurricane Maria saw roving gangs steal electric generators for their own use. P.Rico has strict gun control laws, however the gangs down there are armed with AK-47s. https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandg...g-fuel-supplies-claims-scot-fled-devastation/ https://www.independentsentinel.com...g-with-roving-gangs-teamsters-who-wont-drive/
Those that try to steal livestock will probably have a short life expectancy . As Clint Eastwood said in the movie JOSE WALES " dying ain't much a living " .
I don't disagree that the veneer of civilization is thin, nor do I disagree about the depravity of man or the depths of that depravity. I have already said at some point that under the right (or wrong circumstances) almost anyone is capable of killing and more. My point was that when people do kill there are consequences to their psyche. Other than that I think our perspectives are for the most part strikingly similar. I don’t disagree at all that our insulated society can (and has) collapse in a virtually instantaneous way, reverting to what I would call a less than optimal state (to be generous). It has happened throughout history and one only has to visit any gang run area if any city to see it played out. I agree that we are insulated from the realities of death. Our perpetual quest for youth is a symptom. While I understand your predator/ rabid sick analogy, I am afraid to say that I don’t think the latter are going to go away, in fact I think you will find their numbers increased. There is always going to be need for sheep dogs because the rabid ones are always there.
At first, the number of vicious and crazy people will indeed increase. They are all among us but keep it hidden or are carefully protected by the laws and police. In the beginning, things are going to be insane as those that only obey laws out of fear are going to run wild in the streets looting and killing. Without the cops to protect them, good people will start shooting the mad dogs on sight. I'll tell you now that if some sucker with MS13 tattoos all over his face shows up around me he had better walk very softly. Those that now prey on good people knowing that if they defend themselves the cops will arrest them will suddenly find themselves shot full of holes or lynched. Gangs only survive because the law protects them. If you live in a bad part of town you KNOW who is bad and who is not. A lot of good people are going to FIX their neighborhood problems fast in the first days of a collapse. If you rape my daughter you are GOING to die. If you try to rob me I will kill you without mercy. If you attack me it will be like the Texas no trespassing signs. Attackers will be shot and survivors will be shot again. There will be no prisoners and no second chances. After a year or two, all that there are going to be left are those that learned to defend and kill and those that learned to at least not cross or mess with people that aren't bothering you. the weak shall inherit the earth...in the form of shallow graves.
I can see livestock being a target but a real risky one. Those that do maintain livestock, will most assuredly be armed and proficient in the use of those firearms. Second, if you have traveled or live were livestock is located, you are also probably near wild critters that are not armed with guns. That makes the wild critters a much better choice.
I don't think there will be so much to steal as some seem to think, depends on what the event is and how many survivors there are, there will be more in the cities with all the shops and other retail units, but that's where most of the looters will also be located( reference "London Riots"). once the imports stop and the manufacturing base is no more then the amount of excess stuff is finite, what there is is ALL there is, there wont be any more. much of it will get trashed and trampled underfoot, maybe burnt when the looters set fire to the buildings they just robbed. if someone thinks they can only survive on what they can steal then their time on this earth post event is going to be limited.
Livestock theft, aka rustling is still big business today. There is a reason we still have brand inspecrors
If I differentiate between stealing and salvaging/scavenging am I just justifying the sin? Would I knowingly take something from somebody when I know I am stealing from them? I would hope not. I would like to think that if I were in that position I would ask the owner for assistance before I would steal. Would I take something from what appears to be abandoned property? Yes I would. Stealing livestock? Not going to happen, but I will ask the question. How far, actual distance, can livestock range before they could be considered lost or abandoned? It's a cow, right? I might be a city boy, but I know a cow. A cow or a steer should be near a farm or a ranch, right? If you see one in the middle of BF Nowhere would it be fair game? You haven't seen any people, and you haven't seen any dwellings. Does that cow or steer still belong to somebody? Stealing to survive vs. stealing to get rich? There is no comparison to me. Stealing to get rich would put you in the "Looter" category. Right up there with the people stealing television sets, or raiding liquor stores, so they can survive. I'm definitely with Innkeeper. I hope I never have to find out.
It hasn't happened YET so like everyone I will take my best guess . The small time livestock holders will be close by and vigilant of any potential threat and ready to defend their resources . The big time livestock ranchers will move their livestock to the most secure place they have , certainly away from the vicinity of any starving people . Most likely the rancher will do as they did on the old time cattle drives and have someone armed and guarding the livestock twenty four hours a day and seven days a week . Anyone depending on their neighbors livestock to survive will be in the same boat as the SHEEPLE . Most rural type are savy enough to know how to read sign . It would be difficult for someone to remove a large animal without the owner being able to spot blood , hair , tracks and bent grass , which could be followed to the stolen animal . Actually if that happened around here , most of my neighbors know I have a trained bloodhound . I would be happy to help them as I despise a thief . With my bloodhound on their trail they wouldn't have much of a chance at all of escaping . I might even help hang them from a limb . We would have good rope on hand as that is what I use as a leash . It takes a good rope to hold onto when the hound is pulling hard on a trail .
I think that the livestock thing is different for some people depending on where they live. If you live in or near a big urban area there probably isn't a lot of livestock. For me, that is not the situation. Where I live ranching in its various forms is big business and I am surrounded by all sorts of livestock. I would guess that there are probably several hundred cattle within a few miles of me right now. then there are goats, pigs and all sorts of domestic fowl. It is going to be a bit of a quandary. If a rancher has no market for his cattle then what is he going to do with several hundred of them? I will tell you for a fact that they are not going to be kept as pets. At first, I'm sure that they will defend them but at some point, they are going to need to find a way to benefit from them or they will cut their fences and let them go. This sort of thing actually happened a few years ago when the EMU market bottomed out and the hundreds of birds, almost overnight, became worthless and expensive to feed. For a little while there were emus running around everywhere. Parks and wildlife declared them an invasive species and encouraged people to hunt and kill them. they actually made a pretty good BBQ and eventually, they were all harvested. I can imagine cattle ending up a little like this. we already have the hog problem and a longhorn is fully capable of going wild and doing quite well. I imagine some of the more docile cattle won't last long but longhorns and brahma cattle will go wild and do well. In the end, I hope that the local ranchers will hook up with local butchers and market their cattle locally. without refrigeration, you will need to kill butcher and get rid of the meat in a hurry. Some of it can be smoked and preserved in various ways but as far as fresh meat in the summer it won't last long. The entire cattle industry is based on raising the cattle and then shipping them elsewhere to be fattened up, slaughtered and then sent to feed the huge urban masses. When those masses disapear there are going to be a LOT more cattle around here than will be of use. THEN you have the dairy cattle!! what do you do with a couple hundred cows that need milking when the milking machines lose power and you don't have a bunch of handy milk maids to do it manually for you??? Even if you get it done what do you do with all that milk? There are going to be a lot of hard decissions to be made in a hurry. It should make for some interesting times until some new or rather old ways get established.
Good afternoon Poltiregist and Tex Dan m, Appreciated reading "bent grass". Yes, it's an arrow for the azimuth to locate the missing whatever. The thread is both about livestock and SAR. Appreciated reading "bent grass". Tex Dan; LOL ! " ... not going to be kept as pets." Love it !
NO! I have went trough few SHTF including politically motivated kind, and I managed to survive this long without stealing. Although I might end up begging but that where I draw the line. I do however might use variety of means (which may include stealing or other things) to achieve something that has nothing to do with surviving SHTF. There is a different between stealing vs scavenging. The former is taking something with the owner still around and most likely still need it, while the latter taking something which the owner no longer around (dead, or unlikely to return). I'm fully aware in practice the line is very thin, but that is where I draw the line. I have went trough let say very difficult time in life, but even than I don't resort to stealing. That is very commendable of you, and I completely agree that human heart is tend to be deceitful and in desperate situation some people may resort to desperate measures, however I live in a region that is prone to major natural disaster (somehow routine here) and yet those who resort to desperate measures to survive are the exception rather than the norm. BTW Have you ever consider that those unlikely people you were mentioning are basically not the kind of person they were portraying themself to you in the first place?
anyone who is stealing is unlikely to be a prepper, as I believe the SHTF is unlikely to be one big bang but more likely a series of smaller events, domino or cascade effect. if it is a series of smaller events it may be possible to BUY any extras one might need before it all goes haywire and the die off starts in earnest.
Oh believe me I am quite used to people portraying themselves as something different. There was a reason I liked to be introduced by name rather than title. I have seen people turn on the charm and go out of their way to showhaw bad or tough they were. Very few (maybe no one) is ever exactly as presented. I have a pretty good BS detector for but I have been fooled.
I sorry but you have IMHO a very romanticized idea of what a prepper is. There are good ones and bad ones. I know som3 pretty serious scum that prep equally seriously, and I know some highly moral Preppers. When the SHTF desperate people do desperate things, even nice preppers
When all is well and right in the world I'd say yes, breaking into a lakeside cottage to warm up and eat after falling through the ice while fishing (as example) isn't normally considered a crime and I certainly have no problem with it as a cottage owner. The problem with it when the S is HTF is that survival may be more like a zero-sum game. With no way to resupply, anything stolen improves the odds of the thief's survival only by decreasing the odds of the owner's survival. Whether the thief is stealing to survive or just to get rich doesn't matter at that point.
A question for the group. If TEOTWAWKI has occurred and your government has completely collapsed with WROL being the rule of the day. Is taking the stuff from government buildings (offices, National Guard Armories, Gov. Shops, etc.) then stealing, or scavenging? Tax dollars paid for it all, so who does it belong to? Dale
I have to wonder too. I was in the middle of nowhere, lets say crown land. Came across a old fallen down log cabin. Found a old crooked knife, I took it. Was that stealing or scavenging?
I'm not sure it qualifies for either. Finding some old item in the remains of an abandoned ruin of a trappers cabin isn't really any different than finding a stone arrow point in a stream or plowed field. Many years ago I found a very old trap, still set where the trapper had left it some 50 to 60 years before. There was no humanly possible way to ever find the original owner and the law considers it abandoned property. I guess it depends on the law of the land or maritime law. Dale
Good afternoon Dale, It belongs to the heirs at law and next of kin of government. I might justify taking a pad of DD Form 95 Memo Routing Slips because they generate funny memories ... but a nice civilian boat at Naval Supply Center Cheatham Annex, Williamsburg, Virginia ... Tempting when looking at the dive platform and ethical morality is "just a construct". Besides, if someone can steal something from a NSC, there are other in wait wanting the same boat. Watch the furniture in the mansions at Fort McNair, Washington, D.C. get relocated. ...... Would you expand thread's theme to include real estate ? That Monterey area is both relaxing and great for entertaining. I'd dedicate some space for us to have some picnic tables under sheds like at highway rest areas.
Next of kin of government??? That one needs an explanation. If the government collapses, then we become no different than every other failed state and either a new government and country (or countries) rise out of the ashes or not. The unknown is why we prep. Dale
Good morning Dale, Yes, all unknown, but it's "KNOWN unknowns". A collapsed government is just about always alongside people replacing it. I doubt if the North American landmass would witness an Islamic type of government. Actually, the prepper community is like the military community; both prepare for the last war: the KNOWN. The "next of kin of government" is, to quote national political commentator Mark Steyn, "Whoever shows up".
being a prepper means we PREPARE, we shouldn't need to steal. sheeple will steal because they haven't prepared or planned for anything, but they will probably end up being shot for their actions.
Good morning Lone Wolf, Exactly ! If someone survives a disaster and is mobile - and engages in "acquiring" additional property of some sort,... the survivor places himself / herself / itself / themself in a new and dangerous non-natural environment. "You will find obstacles enough; what does anything I say matter in comparison?" Franz Kafka, THE CASTLE
I remember seeing a photo of some American guys with a placard which read"looters will be shot, survivors will be shot again!" sort of makes my point.
I recently acquired a copy of the book The Stranger in The Woods, a book about the north pond hermit. He chose his life for sure. here is a interesting quote "Knight was raised with rigid morals and a great deal of pride. You make do on your own, always. No handouts or government assistance, ever. You know what's right and what's wrong, and the dividing line is usually clear." then he says "But try not eating for ten days-nearly everyone's restraints will be eroded, hunger is hard to ignore. "it took awhile to overcome my scruples" Knight said, but as soon as his scruples fell , he snapped of a few ears of corn, dug up a few potatoes and ate some green vegetables." Need to expand on this a bit, I noticed with the internet in general some folks will read something in a post that is not there. The above is about one man's thoughts on hunger, nothing less ,nothing more. I'm am thankful this will never happen to any of us.
oh yes, the guy without any planning or any supplies decided to go and live in the woods and survived by STEALING from cabins, not an example I would show to people how to live.
exactly, not posted as a example but as I said one man's thoughts on hunger. Most of us in the civilized world have never experienced true hunger. I'm am thankful this will neve happen to any of us.
Good morning Randy, Some in the "civilized" world will, indeed, experience hunger. The point being made is that going to someone's field for food or an abandoned government building looking for supplies places the person in an even worst situation than the hunger pangs.
Maybe, hunger pangs eventfully lead to death. I define hunger and true hunger as different. Coming home from work after a day and being hungry is different than not eating nary a thing for ten days. May I ask who is experiencing this hunger? In the USA with all our food banks and such? I must have a different set of associates than some. I don't know anyone that plans to steal.
I find it interesting to read some of the half as-- preppers trying to make excuses why they will need to go looking for some other items in order to survive . It doesn't matter what word they want to use looting , stealing , scrounging or how they justify their actions . It becomes clear they are inadequately prepared . The reality is the truly prepared will be forced to kill the half as-- prepared . I can't understand why anyone would leave their family half as-- prepared . Quite frankly most of my neighbors are better prepared than some of our members.
When the world goes down the drain if you spend your time trying to apply the rules of our current culture to the realities of a post-apocalyptic world you are probably not going to make it. Survival is about adapting. When 90% of the people die the rules are going to have to change. If you are sick and there is a drug store near you that has been pretty much raided for the narcotics you WILL go there and try to find the medicine that will help you...or you will die. Unless you have a 10,000 sqft warehouse stuffed to the rafters with anything and everything then at some point you are going to have to go and scrounge through abandoned places for some things. If you want to consider this stealing then you need to adjust your ideas or you are in trouble. Unless you are wealthy and have several hundred acres of land you are going to be stealing wood and animals off of the property that you don't own and have no legal right to. There are going to be a lot of moral dilemmas and what is legal and illegal now will have no application in the world after a fall. If you live in California for example. Are you seriously going to refuse to carry a gun because it was against the law to do that there??? Are you going to only hunt during the previously allowed hunting seasons?? If my neighbors die nd their place is empty I will have no problem scavenging from their property. I might even gut it for what I want and burn what is left to prevent squatters from moving in. I WILL block the road that comes to my place if there are bad people using those roads to raid places. I will gleefully violate every law on the books if it is a matter of survival. No matter how much stuff you have stored there are going to be things that you will need. Where will you get those things when all the stores are closed and gutted and if you do find the things you need who are you going to pay. In the after times we are all going to be thieves in the rawest sense of the word. Accept it and move on or eat a bullet.
I have asked but for some reason it was not answered perhaps it's denial but I'll ask again. What happens when your plans don't go as planned and you are removed from your resources by a superior force? what then curl up and die
There are as many reasons a very well prepared (prepper) could be isolated from their supplies. Randyt, to answer your question, yes I would do what every was needed to survive and help my family survive. I plan and prep but I also know that Mr. Murphy can and will do everything in his power to cause havoc. As stated in the military, no plan survives intact after first contact with the enemy. The best laid plans can and will face challenges. We will do the best we can and hope it will be enough.
Thanks for the reply TMT. Back when I got into all this we were called survivalists, prepper was not a term used back then. There are many examples of people being separated from their supplies. For instance Ishi and his family were driven from their cache. This started a series of events and Ishi lost his family. I don't think Ishi had any challenge surviving but was simply lonely when he was captured/found. He was accustomed to tribal living. They didn't plan on losing their supplies. I don't plan on stealing, rustling or killing but I can understand it, if someone feels their back is against the wall. In a old video I recently posted Ron Hood said that he planned on feeding people because it was cheaper than killing them. I guess everyone has a plan.
Then they slide down Maslow's Pyramid to the bottom levels, whether they realize it or not. Their basic needs and the needs of their family override respect of other's property, for morality, for laws, and even of the survival of others. They wouldn't care. Their mental priorities flowchart starts to look like this. It doesn't make stealing right or justifiable, but it might make it necessary for them if they are presented with the opportunity. And obviously that's a security concern for those that haven't fallen to their level (yet?).
