The Coming Starvation

Good afternoon TexDanm,

Just about every day since COVID-19, China had been receiving oil from tankers and pipelines and routed the cargo to it's system of storage and onward.

Just about every day, China made payments for this oil and I can say China never paid only for the transportation and insurance on 20 April 20 regardless of the cite from the NASDAQ link.

I was also talking about the ACTUAL production system.

Texas is NOT one of the poorer states - because it is a measurement of little to no meaning. The comparisons are also meaningless.

The oil industry is part of the foundation of America's political system. Do recall the 87 and a half % oil depletion allowance. This wasn't an initial proposal from the New Hampshire Congressional delegation.

Less the above, I agree with your theme. It didn't start with the auto industry. Look at what happened to the world's best, most efficient, safest, premier labor conditions, US flag fleet.

They're not really liberals within the objective use of the term and definition.

 

Restriction on some canned and dried food was introduced in the UK but has now pretty much been lifted as stock levels are around where they were pre panic buying. Bog roll, dry pasta and tinned/canned tomatoes were the big three for the mob to crave.

We did run short on pork and chicken but that was down to people filling their freezers at home, the supply chain in the UK at the moment is Robust and working well, in fact IMHO the supermarket chains + suppliers have done a bang on top job and we should all spare a thought for the drivers/couriers/food industry/public transport workers for doing a great job also.

 

I'm not sure what your point is about China. Their oil industry it a totally different operation than what we have in the US at this time. It is actually much like our industry USED to be before it was regulated almost out of business. They have NO problems building refineries there nor do they have laws forbidding drilling in places that have oil.

China is what the US used to be in a lot of ways. That is both in the bad ways and some of the good ways. They are involved in a huge industrialization a lot like the US did after WW2. They are building and doing things with little in the way of restrictions and NO consideration of the ecology of an area or the pollution.

I said that I grew up in the oil industry. That meant that I grew up in a place that the water was so polluted that you didn't want to swim in the river because it was brown with pollution. You could always tell the direction of the wind because the different chemical plants had different stinks. Both of my parents died and had lung cancer as did so many of my friend's parents. The ugly side of the oil industry especially the refineries is the pollution that they WILL release if the government doesn't force them to clean it up. It was so corrosive that you paint on top of the cars would just be eaten off.

There has to be a middle ground between what we did in the US back then and what China is doing now and what we have now where restrictions on the American industry have made us dependent on other nations for our oil and eventually our refined products. But that isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about why our oil industry can't be allowed to slow and maybe what will happen if they do.

 

Good afternoon TexDanm,

My point re China was to challenge the NASDAQ quote.

Now you can help me explain to some Forum Members here why the US oil industry is in China - and it's not just the US oil industry there.

US pollution was not caused only by the US oil industry. The other industries contributed health problems from pollution - no fish in the Great Lakes - semi-joking; there were a few fish, all the other industrial and commercial examples.....

We ARE talking about all this because the oil industry is a global industry ... much more so than aircraft manufacturing and the pharmaceutical trade.

The US oil industry has operations overseas because that "middle ground" not yet located here in this splintered political scene.

 

Where I lived we had refineries and chemical plants everywhere. Then there were the stinking paper mills. The air and water were a mess. The government finally stepped in and forced them to find cleaner ways to do this stuff. It is much better there now.

The problem is that they made it much less profitable. This has led to a lot of places moving their plants out of the country. China is still at the rock and roll stage of the industries where profit is all that counts and pollution is not a consideration EXCEPT when they wanter to have the Olympics there and had to temporarily close down most of their industries in the area.

Like with the car industry, if you want to have an industry in this country you have to tax the imports so that places here that are working under our restrictions can compete on a level playing field with the imports from countries with no restrictions. the oil industry does not have to be such a mess it was just cheaper to pollute than not to and at the end that is all that counted. The drilling is not a mess as people outside of the industry try to make it sound. It is a 10 inch hole in the ground. The drilling is noisy but when it was done they cleaned up the drill site replanted the grass and it was fine. My Highschool had several wells and my deer lease had about a hundred wells. Both areas were very clean and nice. It you let them though they would leave it a muddy mess.

The thing is that we MUST not allow our oil industry to close and leave. If we do we are done as a first-world nation. You can't fight a war without fuel and it is so easy to stop tankers from crossing the ocean to bring it to us. It is like letting someone wrap their hands around your throat and trusting them not to hurt you! They don't have to hurt you but then you don't have much choice about doing as you are told either.

Tough decisions the liberals want to surrender I'm not honestly sure what the so-called conservatives want or if in the long run, it is much better.

 

Do you have different tax tariffs for different states?

 

Each state is totally allowed to place taxes as they wish. Places with very high gas prices are having the price jacked up by state, county and city taxes. the cost of the gasoline is set by the interstate commerce commission and is the same everywhere except in the state where it originates where there is no interstate involvement.

 

Good afternoon TexDanm,

Ref para 1; Did the Government step in for pollution abatement - or for additional reasons also ? After the abatement regulations were in place, did area labor / jobs be provided for ?

Ref para 2; Actually, for the last 3 decades, China didn't focus exclusively on profits. The already started Pearl River Delta economic zone - the powerhouse triangle of Hong Kong, Macao, Guangzhu (Canton City) is a car-free zone (minor exceptions) for pollution control. Oil rigs and ocean going vessels must be SOLAS-compliant. Aviation is ICAO-compliant. They are trying to reach for world class status. The place is still a mess outside where western foreigners usually do business but even in the remote areas they are implementing the national requirements such as pollution control, worker safety, quality control for goods. There are those who flaunt the rules but they experience corrective actions.

Ref para 3; Can a tax schedule ever create a level playing field ? True, drilling is portrayed as an out of control mess which it's not but it is the perception that counts when dealing with a dumbed down society - and I'm describing the current USA. Exxon Veldez and Deepwater Horizon were media darlings for exploitation - yet the housing bubble burst caused more human misery.

During the Cold War, the US produced about 40% of the world;s goods and services. Post Diem China is so productive that the US now produces about 20% of the world's goods and services. The US cartels, medical, legal, military, educators, the airline pilots, ... the US is being drained. Must I need to mention the public pensions ?

Our military uses antique systems because of a post military retirement jobs program and the contractors sell the cost-inflated weapons systems to the military covering the new hires.

China is the US creditor. US debt is controlled by China.

Trump is quietly trying to soften the crash landing pending here. It will still be a crash.

 

China is in a corner right now. They can't afford for the USA to go down they are too heavily invested in us. We are in a similar situation with our investments in their industry. Tariffs can and have made it possible for countries to have industries even when they can't compete on a level stage. Try selling meat or fruits to Japan if you want to see it in action. Other nations have used this against us for decades to keep our industries from crushing theirs.

 

Good morning TexDanm,

We are saying the same / similar thing(s).

I've already written here, some other thread, about the new arrangements in formation now ("N.W.O.") . A few large nations with well over 100 million population with adequate land mass, will be at the top. The current smaller nations will fade away or become spheres of influence.

Tariffs are quid pro quo.

Much of this thread of ours here involves recent and current back channel agreements.

 

I don't know about food, but some prescription drugs would be hard to find soon. Most are made in India and China and to move the manufacturing to another country it takes time. "Drugs such as epinephrine, various antibiotics, and albuterol (used to treat asthma) are among those of most concern ..."
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...y-covid-19-will-likely-lead-us-drug-shortages

 

Good morning Praevians,

First, a welcome to the Forum.

Glad you're joining us here.

Yes, indeed, some prescription pharma getting hard to find. The scarcity already started. My M.D. can't even get some stuff.

One's medical kit gets priority over the liquor cabinet and ice chest with brew.

Again, welcome to MSF !

Transmitting from the Chesapeake Bay area of Virginia

 

Hi there Pragmatist,

Nice to be here, read some interesting comments in previous threads, and decided to join.

We (the hubby and I) are personally concerned about some family members with medical problems.
Where are sealed and not expired prescription drugs? At people, hospitals and nursing homes!
I remember how many drugs I threw out when grandma' died of cancer. Did not have a clue what to do with them. Tons of them get wasted:
https://scroll.in/article/835933/us...cause-they-dont-know-how-to-redistribute-them
Being both in software ... surprise ... thought about an app to solve the problem A non-profit organization could manage the exchange (using as moderators: doctors and chemists) between patients and maybe later also hospitals and nursing homes (depends on the country and local laws). The main idea is to give points if someone donates and use those points if you need others to donate to you, but specifics... what the values of the points should be ... it's still in the thinking phase.

 

I am not thinking about people that stockpile which we plan to ban soon after it's seen they have large quantities they try to trade (and are not hospitals or nursing homes). However, if someone in the family dies, or treatment changes because of adverse reaction (happened to our relative we are concerned about) ...

Also my guess is that it could work in countries like: U.K., Australia, Canada with socialized medicine, but not in U.S. where, if it becomes a popular option, could cut in the bottom line of pharma companies. Do you know that a few years ago Google paid 0.5 billion dollars for carrying advertisements by online Canadian pharmacies targeting consumers in the United States https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2011-aug-25-la-fi-google-settlement-20110825-story.html

 

Never heard of this option before. This is what you are required legally to do in U.K.?

 

Excellent idea! Unfortunately not so in other countries, like Canada where you buy the drugs, prescription drugs are not covered by basic insurance (they want to change that). Similar in some countries in E.U. where they just throw away the unwanted meds.

 

Good morning Praevians,

I tried to set up on my land a small medical clinic in a rehab'ed shipping container for our co-op / NGO. The roadblocks by governmental regs stopped this. To set up a blood chemistry lab - basically only a microscope on a table with the slides and related - requires a "certificate of necessity". Translation: the cartels control medical care delivery even during emergencies.

RX pharma was out of the question. Our M.D.s cannot get the needed RX pharma.

Distribution is well understood by all concerned. The system is rigged.

 

Yes, it is rigged, Pragmatist. Big pharma gets away even with mass murder and billions in profits they siphoned offshore.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/15/health/purdue-pharma-bankruptcy-opioids-settlement.html

 

I don't think its law? Most people just leave meds in cupboards. The only time I've bothered taking meds back was when my dad passed away at home after a long battle with cancer and there were five bottles of Oramorph left over which I took back. Welcome aboard, I'm new here but they seem a friendly enough bunch.

 

Good point. However, this is are special circumstances: pandemic that leads to shortages. Why people should die when they could live? The idea is to be a medical non-profit and the moderators (doctors and chemists) to verify the prescriptions and identity of those who apply, if the drugs are sealed and not expired etc. all using video-chat (zoom, skype, google meet etc.).

 

It's a shame they can't be processed for food banks. Many people are now dependent on a food bank thanks to not working so it would seem logical. But then again, no meat processing workers no damn meat.

 

Where do you store 6 months let alone a years worth of food in an apartment or what ever though? A lot of people aren't Mormon.

I already see on eBay and Amazon a lot of rice, oats and beans disappearing.

I'm hoping by Summer when the temps are in the 90s a majority of this crap will subside. And it sounds like a vaccine is being made in record time as well seen as how the FDA and what have y0u have streamlined the process. Although, I'll wait a while before I get it. Ya never know...

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tyson-foods-chairman-warns-food-supply-chain-breaking-n1193256

Americans and most likely any other countries who receive food from the US are about to learn what real food shortages are.

In the US right now they are preparing or already underway with killing off all the cattle. hog and chicken product that is ready to harvest right now for 2020. There is a supposed bottleneck in the system that is being blamed on covid19. Processors are shut down so these products can not be sent to the market.

My neighbors who raise cattle are asking friends and family to buy locally from them to help cut their losses for this season. The backlog at local small processors are long already. America is about to really learn what real food shortages are. Not just their toilet paper and flour which is simply being hoarded.

This will be much much worse and it is coming as the farmers are forced to plow under their fields and kill all of their ready to send to market livestock. I am already on my neighbors processing waiting list to buy a side of beef and have it processed.

 

My wants and needs lists changed so much after I realized the need to prepare. No longer was the ski/fishing boat on the list. LOL

 

Good morning Praevians,

I'm guessing you're writing from north of the St. Lawrence. Are you a Canadian ?

If I may jump into this dialogue you've got with Lonewolf; ......

There are budge

 

Good morning F22,

Re apartments; space;

It can be done. Over the years I've helped some people get started and set up their apartment for shelter in place requirements.

One or 2 people in an apartment can have a bed frame consisting of canned foods in cardboard boxes. Coffee "cans" (Folgers made of plastic; Aldo used sturdy paper) must be configured for night tables. Some time ago here at Forum, a Member posted a picture of a couple who made a bed from wood warehouse pallets and painted it. It was definitely Southern Living Magazine quality.

In bathroom, at shower curtain rod, I added 2 additional rods. They had space to hang extra towels in otherwise "dead space". Also hanging on extra rod(s) were a couple of new, but unfolded on long axis, plastic-ish shower curtains and liners, in case couple had to GOOD. They were to serve as ground cloth and makeshift tent canopy. I donated a couple of lengths of para cord to 'em.

Vinyl covered shelves appropriated placed give more space in areas not otherwise used.

This specific apartment I helped set up was small so only got 2 sturdy, wide shelves from a big box store near here. Set up library book shelf style.

Plus: Above not expensive at all and when moving, most goes into the U-Haul. I recommended to leave the vinyl-covered shelves so landlord gets a benefit and no covering of screw holes needed if removed.

Most everything about Prepping is about thinking and not packs and gadgets.

"Oh, Rick, you've got to think for both of us - for all of us." Movie CASABLANCA, Ingred Bergman to Humphrey Bogart.

 

From experience - when the electricity is non-existent for weeks thus in my case no running water . What we missed the most , was not having the ability to shower . I now have hooks screwed into the ceiling over my bath tub . The hooks are for hanging a rubber , camping shower bag . With power down , water down we are able to take a shower . I can bring in water from the spring , and heat it up for mini shower .

 

It possible if the said apartment unit is big (read : expensive) type. For poor apartment dweller such as myself space is premium, thus not viable for keeping supplies

 

Quicker to take a shower Lonewolf and giving your nuts a scrub in a bowl of water is not nice; I've had to do that in the past but never from choice.

 

i use one of these in my cabin off grid for a shower. I love it. Gets super hot!

https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-L5-...+water+heater+and+pump&qid=1588548579&sr=8-15

 

There is nothing like an ICE COLD shower to wake you wide up in the morning on a cool fall day. I used to go on a camping trip every year in September. The park was always empty then. JAYSUS, those deep well showers were INSANE!!!

 

in regards to the coming starvation:

i have noticed at my local grocery stores Fred Meyer, Safeway, Walmart and QFC that the meat section is holding up well
its the canned section thats running dry. for many people who rely on electricity if the grid does go down those frig's and freezers will go down too...so maybe folks in my area have a clue and are going for the longer term stuff?

how is your meat dept. holding up?

 

In Aus, we don't have any shortages of food (or not where I am, in any case).

Couldn't agree with you more regarding fridges/freezers. I've got a plug-in 12V Engel car fridge/freezer but it doesn't hold near the capacity of my chest freezer or fridge! My aim is to go solar but that won't be for another 6 months or so, at least.

 

I had a power outage here today for about two hours . No worries I just ran my chest freezer from my solar powered system . Actually it was already on the solar power when the power company's system failed . I got my solar system going about three weeks ago . I am taking the coming starvation " for some people " seriously .

 

Good morning Varuna,

"Where one can live, one can live well." Anon.

Both of us and others also on this Forum have ancestors who lived in small apartments and the equivalents thereof. They had supplies and food.

We are here because of our ancestors' thinking and preparedness.

"Where one can live, one can live well." Anon.

 

When I first moved out I knew that I couldn't do an apartment in an apartment complex so I found a little garage apartment. It was basically just a small one-bedroom cottage over a small two-car garage behind a house. There was very little room for storage.

I got some heavy-duty cardboard boxes and used them to store stuff and stacked them and used them as bedside tables and a coffee table. I put a piece of plywood on top and covered them with table cloths and they looked nice and offered me a lot of storage.

 

Well my ancestor (great gran parents) live next door neighbour (literally speaking) in what present day is the US Consulate, and what use to be their humble shop is now a police precinct, not mentioning was their factory elsewhere. So they do have plenty space for a lot of things including for livestock and all kind of animals (my great gran mother was a dog breeder)

I lived at 2 different places in the same city. One of them is in apartment complex, and another in rented room. Both of them are equally small. My food supplies are in 2 duffel bags, and each of them only able to cover 4 days worth of logistic (assuming for one adult person) It did include pocket stove (heaxamine tablets) and the necessary pot / pan for boiling water for the duration.