The Energizer Bunny And Climate Action

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Pragmatist, Dec 28, 2019.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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  2. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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  3. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Ah, the good old solution of "taxing the citizenry" to stop a problem, one of the biggest cons in history. Someone please tell me how charging people will make the climate cleaner?

    In The UK a "congestion charge" was put in place in London some years back. The idea being you pay as a motorist within a designated central area. Has it reduced congestion - no, not to any measurable degree. Has it made the environment less polluted - No, not to any measurable degree.

    The obvious question is "why not"? The answer is quite simple. Those who chose/needed to drive with the congestion zone were not doing it for fun, they actually needed to be driving within that area. Delivery drivers, taxis, emergency service vehicles, motorcycle couriers, all the vehicles associated with the service industries (the central London area has a relatively small population, but many, many hotels/office etc - which all need servicing). The upshot of this is that unless one drives an electric vehicle or an especially low emissions vehicles one pays a charge. Has the charge had the effect that was alleged it would have - no, it hasn't. All that has happened, in reality, is that the mayoral office in London has a larger level of income due to the charge. So, who wins here? Certainly not the delivery van driver or tradesman who works in the city. They have to pass the cost on to the customer.

    Obviously having said the above, I believe we humans do need to clean our act up. You may or may not believe in climate change, but it has been flagged globally as a risk to our future survival and, therefore, as preppers, we should be prepping for it. To not prep for a perceived risk is to be a poor prepper. Paying more taxes etc ain't prepping though.....
     
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  4. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    paying extra taxes has nothing to do with climate change.
    what we have to do is clean up our act as humans, having said that the British government would like us all to ditch our petrol and diesel cars and all drive electric vehicles, at the moment that is not feasible, electric cars do not have the mileage range and are only fit for city vehicles, outside of the cities there are few if any recharging points and where is all this extra electric supposed to come from? we don't have enough power stations as it is.
    the only new power station being built Hinckley Point in Somerset wont be online and generating until at least 2026.
     
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  5. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Agree
     
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  6. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Brownbear,

    Much of what we are discussing - "taxing the citizenry" - is really traceable to a combination of poor-quality and corrupt government organizations.

    I've lived with the "congestion charge" in Singapore.

    The headache here in the US in re gasoline / electric cars is that road maintenance (and some construction) is predicated on the gasoline tax receipts. Since the electric car does not pay for the road use, the matter is now a front-burner issue here.

    ...

    Didn't know that "ain't" was used in British English. You are now eligible to enter US political office.
     
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  7. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    We are in agreement :) Re the use of the word "ain't" I actually used it to sound "quaint" but it is in very common use in the UK, and is an intrinsic part of the lower class London dialect. I was once told that a lot of US terms are those that were in common UK usage during mid Victorian times when a lot of UK and Irish people emigrated to the US. I've never found any supporting evidence for this but I do rather like it as an idea.

    Right then, my friend, electric cars and the congestion charge, let's have at it. This is not just a cause of rancour in Singapore, the same tensions exist in the UK. Electric cars are "road tax" free (road tax, in the UK. being a taxation on vehicles under a certain age and over a certain level of emissions). Electric cars are, currently, exempt from the London congestion charge.

    The problem is that if I buy a petrol powered, road tax exempt car today, in a year or two as emission standards move forward (we have a "Euro" system I will explain in amount) that vehicle will then become liable for rid tax at the lower rate and the, as the years and Euro emissions progress, the road tax will increase. This, I believe, has very little to do with emissions and more to do with encouraging vehicle owners to replace their vehicles more often and, hence, boost car sales. As my environmental studies revealed approximately 50% of all the energy consumed by a car is in its manufacture this does not seem very "green" to me. Surely it would make more sense to encourage people to keep their vehicles for longer and keep them better maintained? But I think we both realise that it has to do with business and keeping business revenue, and hence business tax rolling in.

    (In the UK and Europe, motor vehicle emissions are measured and new vehicles must comply with a set of emissions standards that are incrementally increased. This is know in the trade as "Euro X) with the earliest variant being Euro A. As each emissions control system is introduced a new Euro standard is introduced with it. So, for example my car is a Euro C standard, but the same vehicle, two years newer is classified as Euro D as it has further emissions control developments i.e is more efficient. In the case of the newer variant that is due to a new six-speed gearbox that lightens the land on the engine and reduces emissions accordingly - so it is not all down to the "burn rate" of fossil fuels. The Euro standard is set by the European Parliament and motor manufacturers are legally compelled to comply. This is why the VW emissions scandal happened, the demands placed on the motor manufacturers are not really achievable, are vastly expensive to meet and take no account of the development times required by manufacturers to make the changes. I actually feel it is rather unfair on the manufacturers, but it is what it is).

    Electric cars, as you rightly say, are exempt from road charges, they still use all the facilities and put the same wear and tear on the roads. The electricity they use is subject to delivery on a huge electrical network, known in the UK as the National Grid, partly paid for through our domestic electricity bills and partly through taxation. But, here's the thing, the electricity generation process is still using over 50% non renewables, ie largely carbon producing methods (we have gas powered and a very few coal fired power stations still in use). This means that the carbon footprint of an electric car is nowhere near the zero that is touted around in the media.

    The other big issue with electric cars is their range. We see mostly Tesla cars in the UK and where I am living in Cornwall is around 250 miles from my other home in Wiltshire. When driving between the two places (to visit family etc) I often stop at rest areas (age related calls of convenience) coffee stops etc. Where I always see a small but regular number of electric cars being charged. I wondered about this so I spoke with a guy who I used to work with and who had bout a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. This is a state of the art mid sized SUV in Europe. He explained that they drove to Bristol (45 miles) stopped for their morning coffee, which was something they normally did in a petrol car anyway, and then drove to Exeter (another 80 miles) stopped for a light lunch and then drove to Cornwall, not far from where I live and put the car straight on charge for overnight. He also told me that he got a year's worth of free electricity as a deal when he bought the car. A five hour journey for me is seven hours for him. When he has to start paying for the electricity it will cost him the same as me for fuel. When I arrive here I can still drive, he has to wait until the following day (if he only uses electric, it is a hybrid so he does have other options) and he also tends to pay for a meal due tot he longer journey time and breaks. And yet my petrol car will do almost 70 miles per gallon on that journey (mostly motorway of dual carriageway, so an easy, direct journey with light traffic conditions). So who is the real winner here? The chap I am telling you about is a very dedicated reducer of his carbon footprint, but despite the measures he has taken his transport is no "greener" than mine. His vehicle is larger, so the wear and tear not he roads is more, his tyres and larger, but wear out just as fast etc etc.

    As you can see I am not at all convinced that the current phase of electric vehicles are the answer to the climate problems and that road taxation is not a sensible way of doing things and that congestion charges are simply a sneaky way of introducing taxation.

    I would like to see no road tax and an equivalent amount put on fuel tax, then we would pay for what we use.

    Who knows what the future holds...
     
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  8. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Brownbear,

    I personally believe private vehicle ownership is the overall problem. My belief is that rail, urban light rail, long haul and interface, and also water routes (The Chesapeake Bay once was loaded with water taxis and overnight trip to the big town of Baltimore) solves the pollution problem - although this place is run by politics and off-book funds. The auto companies and United Auto Workers can explain.

    Yes, many British Isles expressions/words once here;

    "Mind your Ps and Qs "- pint and quarts on bartender's blackboard on tally of drinks served. Occasionally, chart had mistakes.

    A "Limey" - RN sailor - although the lemon was healthier than the lime.

    "Gibraltarize it" - Make it stronger; reinforce the wooden box corners.

    A "smelly rifle" - Believe this was the famous British Enfield with the add-on words the military needed for some reason. "It shoots like a Smelly".
     
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  9. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I do not believe given some of the items we have to accumulate for post SHTF that it is possible to be a prepper by only using public transport, being a minimalist yes a prepper no.
     
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  10. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Lonewolf,

    True, for the Prepper aspects. A 50 lb bag of rice is uncomfortable to carry on a bus.

    Yet, for the overall climate programs to save the planet, private ownership of vehicles interferes with the required due date.
     
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  11. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    or a 40 gallon water barrel!
    as for climate change this will make the emergency situations-like the Australian fires and the California ones-more regular, whether getting rid of fuel cars is the way to go I don't know, places like China and India are now going for western diets and they all want to drive cars.
    I wonder what happened to all that talk about Hydrogen fuels.
     
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  12. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Limey from the RN's provision of citrus fruits to combat the awfulness of scurvy when at sea for months.

    I've not heard Gibraltarize it before, Like that and will try and use it from now on :)

    "Smelly rifle" as a term predates the Lee Enfield by 100 years and goes back to the Napoleonic wars when soldiers would urinate in the barrels of early rifles to cool them and, hence, contract the bore to keep accuracy. At the time it meant "well used"
     
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  13. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    Confusing the problem with the solution. It is not the increase in private owned and operated vehicles. It is the growing number of private vehicles, due to the ever growing increase in the population.
     
  14. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TMT,

    About the same meaning but your's is clearer.

    There's a related problem. Private vehicle purchases allocates funds no longer available for more important purchases, such as health care and education.
     
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  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    In the end, nearly all of the problems that are associated with climate and environmental problems all come back to a human population that is out of control. People are out of control both in population and in the ever-growing desire for MORE. MORE everything!!! When I was a kid most families were one-car families and then a little later most became two-car families as women became more mobile and involved in the economy. Neighborhood schools were in neighborhoods because kids walked to school. Where I lived you were not eligible for bussing unless you were nearly 2 miles from school. Moms didn't drive you to school unless it was NASTY outside. For normal rain, they put you in a raincoat and pointed you out the door. I was in the 5th grade before we actually had two cars and that was only because my Dad got a company truck.

    Most homes had one telephone. Ours was in a little nook in the hall in the middle of the house. One TV was a luxury! We had a washer but clothes were dried on a clothesline. Airconditioning was something that restaurants had and put up a big sign notifying the public that they had cool air! I was a grown man before I ever lived in a house with two bathrooms. When you have 6 kids and one bathroom you have to schedule a visit! Homes back then were a lot smaller nowadays in Texas 2000 sq/ft is normal for a family with two kids. That is over 25% bigger than was the norm in the 50s and 60s and people had more kids then.

    A friend of mine just bought a fairly new used Ford 4 wheel drive F-250 truck. Trucks are not like they used to be at all. this thing has heated leather seats, cameras looking everywhere. EVERYTHING is electric even the mirrors. An entertainment system. (I remember when a radio was nice but not standard on a truck.) It has a computer that wants to chat with you constantly, you need a ladder to get in but the tailgate has a step and handrail. It has a back seat that is like something in a limo and I think that it will park itself. It even has TVs in the back. This is all his after he traded in a three or four-year-old truck that was very much like it and he agreed to pay $700.oo+ a month for 72 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!!

    We are going to possession crazy these days. This beast on top of everything else gets a whopping 14 to 15 MPG on the highway. Our gas right now is occasionally below 2 dollars a gallon. I remember the much higher prices and also remember rationing.

    Now days even the so-called poor are driving around in fancy cars. If you take a drive through the projects you will be amazed at what they are driving. Another part of the problem with thisMORE mentality is that the things that we use on a daily basis have had their quality dropped to the point that things that used to last 20 years are now having to be replaced every 6 or 6 years. There is a toll to be paid when you have a throw-away society.

    While I am not one of the believers in the American caused global warming thing I do think that we as individuals are out of control. We do everything at such a rate that I fear the fall will be like a hundred car pile-up with all the cars doing 70 mph. Once it starts it is going to be fast and grow exponentially. In Europe people live in a smaller fashion. they also have 6 weeks of vacation. In the US we may get two weeks if we are lucky and a lot of people don't take those if they can cash them in for pay. More more more has to be paid for and on top of more things we are falling ever more into DEBT.

    Over the last 30 years, I have noted that people are less and less happy. they are rude and have no honor. Even marriage is nowadays little more than a temporary dalliance. More kids are raised in one-parent families and honestly in a lot of families even with two parents there the kids are basically in a no-parent family. Both parents work and the kids are housed in child warehouses called daycare centers. People don't put much effort into raising their kids these days so the kids learn their behavior from movies and video games.

    Too many people living too large and not paying any attention to their families or their world is a sure recipe for disaster. I think sometimes that people are a lot like the way lemmings used to be portrayed. We seem to be running headlong to a cliff showing no indication that we will stop or divert.

    A rant is good for the soul...or maybe it is more like a trip to the bathroom for number two. Nonetheless, it is good for you. I feel a lot better now. ;=>
     
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  16. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    Who's to blame?

    The people! They vote, they get what they voted for. Next time don't vote with your ass.
     
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  17. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon TexDanm,

    A great post/rant above.

    I'm sure it's not just Old Geezer and me remembering the term "factory air". Without it the South would not have developed so fast.
     
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    I hear Gaia worshipers talk about their electric cars. I then say something sensitive like, "Our electricity here is generated by the burning of coal; therefore, your car runs on coal."

    I want the born-again Gaiaists to run their homes on solar and wind power. If this doesn't work for them, then they can loose the electric appliances they have gathered. Let them dumb-down their lifestyle. This would be "getting back to nature", right? Right! Let the tree-huggers live in tree houses. Let them go without bathing in hot water. They can live on raw fruit and vegetables. Let them gather lightning-bugs in jars for their lighting. Let them cork their butts so that no greenhouse gas methane escapes.

    upload_2020-1-5_1-31-38.png
     
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