"the Golden Horde".....survival Myth???

Discussion in 'The Apocalypse' started by lonewolf, Jul 13, 2018.

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  1. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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  2. Ken S LaTrans

    Ken S LaTrans Active Member
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    The so-called "Golden Horde" won't be as big as people think in my opinion. Yes, there will be some who get out...but I honestly believe that the vast majority of city dwellers won't leave their comfort zone...no matter how uncomfortable it gets. Those who do finally take the decision to leave will do it too late to be able to get out. Those who manage to trickle through will be eaten before they get too far.

    In a non-hostile environment...they may be able to move further, but honestly in Arizona the desert is a literal hell to traverse on foot. Even in Phoenix the freeways are a goat rope and they will be clogged tighter than a nun's snatch. So, people will be reduced to walking or riding bikes and bikes will be stolen, food and water will be fought over, and bedlam will reign. Those who do manage to leak through will be further reduced in number as they pass through the smaller cities...

    The Golden Horde will be reduced to a Dirty Gaggle by the time they get out into the small desert towns. One thing is a pretty sure bet...the street sides will be littered with drying and rotting sacks of human meat.
     
  3. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    A good read mate, thanks for sharing. I go along with that. Certainly I think we would get raiders, we get them now so I am damn sure we would get raiders after shtf, but not the "hoard".
    Keith.
     
  4. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Small groups of determined raiders with the skills to move quietly and shoot from concealment are certainly more dangerous to me then a horde of tired and hungry city folks who make too much noise, wear inappropriate footwear and are afraid of the dark.
     
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  5. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Absolutely agree.
    Keith.
     
  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    There is lots of truth in this. People just don't believe in being self reliant anymore. The flip side of this is that they will sit there and then suddenly try to "evacuate" in mass. These sheeple will leave their homes in a car with very little gas and carry no food or water or ANYTHING with them. The road around the huge mega urban areas rapidly become impassible and they run out of gas or overheat and then just sit there. I have actually seen this when the people in Houston freaked and tried to evacuate when Rita was coming in after Katrina had hit New Orleans. Between those that don't go and those that go too late most of the people in the mega ant piles will not make it for long or get very far.
     
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  7. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I believe there will be bunches (maybe not hordes) of folk who'll abandon the cities.

    Worse however will be those masses intentionally moved by government agencies such as FEMA (g.d.government!!!!! g.d. government !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! g.d. government!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

    If the gov. does this to your area, then you and your family are raped dead. You will have no choice but to bug out of there. I can see me headed to the mountains of Tennessee to be with my own. And if I get killed there, I'll have Sacred soil in which to be buried.
     
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  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    i don't think anyone will actually evacuate the cities in the UK, what we might get is Raiders/Scavengers coming out from the city but they will return with anything they find, anyone who lives near a city will have to watch out.
     
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  9. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Depending on the exact cause and time then there may well be a horde that leaves some of Australias big cities.
    Most of our population is on the east coast so the cities are surrounded by decent land and the horde will not need to go too far.
    Our dry areas are sparsly populated now so no hordes possible there.
    Our population is fairly mobile now so most do not have deep roots where they are and will vacate our cities quick and easy, many are from country areas and will seek to return to there rural roots as they do now when they get in trouble in the city.

    Not everyone in cities are helpless sheeple many have grown up in the country and only moved to the city for work or education, every holidays there is a mass exidus of young to middle aged people heading home to the family farm, most of those will get there one way or another.
    Most unit blocks in my area have at least one country style beat up 4x4 in the parking areas
     
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  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    yes there may be different outcomes in different countries, the UK dosent have the pioneer history of the US or Australia and our population is about 80% city based and 4 generations removed from the land and is in no way or form remotely self reliant, most of them don't even know where their food comes from and even in some cases which animal.
    there is a mentality here of being reliant on the government or state for all things, as we say here "from cradle to grave", most people don't even own a flashlight .
    as soon as they get unemployed they are straight down the food bank, sometimes the next day, not the sort that is going to survive any kind of catastrophe-natural or man made.
     
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  11. Crys B.

    Crys B. Active Member
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    Please forgive me, but what exactly is a "golden horde"? I'm really confused.
     
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  12. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I agree Crys, it is a confusing name. The Golden Hoard is a lot of people leaving the cities to try & survive in the countryside. Perhaps the name is derived from "the privileged", the people who have plenty because they have the money to pay for it.
    Keith.
     
  13. Oldguy

    Oldguy Well-Known Member
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    Lonewolf
    Australia is over 90% urban but our urban areas are very spread out, not very compact at all so the sheer logistic effort involved in getting large numbers assembled prevents those large numbers assembling.
    I was stuck in the middle of this countries largest Gang/ethnic group conflict several years ago,
    weapon of choice was a fence paling and rocks.
    When gang/ethnic group reinforcements arrived by car they were moved on or quickly arrested.
    Each side numbered several hundred
    There was a lot of shouting, a lot of arm swinging and prancing, fake charges and a few strikes that hit home.

    I had recently watched an Attenbro doco on chimp tribes in Africa in conflict and the similarities immediately struck me! humans have not evolved much in the last million or so years was what I took away from that day.

    In times of trouble mans base instincts are always there when the veneer of civilization falls away.
     
  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the cities in the UK are either like London several hundreds of miles to the East of my location, that's the biggest one at 8.6 million inhabitants, the other big cities are in the midlands(the middle of the country) again many hundreds of miles this time North of my location, I think Birmingham is the biggest of these with 1 million population.
    people in the cities know very little about the countryside, nature or rural life, apart from camping on regulated sites-mostly around the coast- many seem to be actually scared to venture into the more remoter areas .
     
  15. Crys B.

    Crys B. Active Member
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    Thank you! I'd never heard that term before.

    That could definitely be an issue. I, admittedly, would be goign out in the middle of nowhere!
     
  16. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The Golden Horde refers to the Mongol hordes that swept across the world killing nearly everyone that they encountered.

    The Golden Horde was established by the Grandson of Genghis Kahn in the 13th century. In this case it is referring to a huge mass of refugees flooding out of the megacities taking and/or destroying everything that they can find in the small towns and countryside.
     
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  17. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I think "The Golden Horde" was coined by the father of JW Rawles and he was referring to the Mongol Hordes of Genghis Khan, previous to that they were just referred to as the Mongol hordes.
    JW Rawles refers to this in one of his books.
     
  18. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Nice background information guys, I didn't know that. I'd assumed it was referring to the threat from communist China in the 1950's but obviously not.
     
  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    surely that was the "Red" horde!!!:D
     
  20. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    mass evacuations in the UK wont happen because:
    1. fuel supplies will run out within 24 hours and wont be replaced, most people drive until the fuel warning light comes on and only then start looking for a filling station.
    2. the masses are not preppers and wont have extra fuel stored therefore limiting how far they can travel.
    3.roadways will become blocked with broken down and out of fuel vehicles stopping any further travel.
    4. a majority of the population are overweight, unfit, unhealthy and wont be able to walk far.
    5. those that leave the city will be few in number and will be subject to heart attacks, heat strokes, dehydration and VIOLENCE FROM OTHERS.
    6. if the government still exists post event and it probably will it wont want refugees clogging up the roads and will probably confine all such people they find to so called "rescue centres" or holding areas.
     
  21. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The problem with the "golden" hoards coming out of the big cities is that people don't grasp the impossible logistics involved. To give you something to compare it to, the Mongol Golden Hoards represented anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers. On D Day the Allied troops were numbered in the area of 160,000.

    The size of most major population centers like London, New York City or the Los Angeles area is in a region of 8 MILLION people. If they were to all leave the ones towards the rear of that line would be walking waist deep in bodies and poop! There would be NOTHING to eat or drink and the infighting when a little bit of food or water was found would devastate their numbers. Rivers would be full of bodies drowned when a hoard pushed to the water trampling the people in front. If you talk to someone in the military in the area of logistics they will tell you that moving a bunch of people, even a fraction of the size we are talking about, on the spur of the moment is just flat out impossible.
     
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  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    The civil defense forces of Western nations have had urban evacuation plans around for decades.

    They plan to use trains and military transport vehicles filled with diesel fuel currently stored in military fuel depots.

    Such agencies practice massive food and fuel delivery to urban areas, however this simply will not get the job done. Millions of urbanites will have to be moved to agricultural regions and regions where there are fewer water shortages.

    The only thing that could stop military divisions from doing this is if soldiers demanded wages in currencies deemed valid and abandoned post if not paid (so as to return to their own families). If allowed to feed their families with looted resources, soldiers would likely go on following orders. History is replete with soldiers being paid in war booty.

    We will witness military units break-up due to regional loyalties. This too always happens when nations disintegrate.
     
  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    civil defence was scrapped in Britain in the early 1980s.
    and the only "stockpile" of food is what is in the supermarkets and delivery warehouses.
    part of the membership of joining the EU in 1973(known then as the "Common Market") was to get rid of any food "mountains".
     
  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The situation that we are generally talking about here is one in which for some reason power is GONE and off for a long term, communication systems are not working and the government and social structure has fallen. If it is JUST that the general power is off to localized cities the government wouldn't evacuate a city. The trucks would still haul food to the masses and if necessary they would bring in drinking water by truck.

    The thing that you have to realize is that the US doesn't have the huge standing military that it used to have. That is why when we went after Iraq the first time it was basically week end warriors that were in the National guard and Reserves that got called up and shipped. If for some reason the communication systems are down there will be no way to "rally" the troops.

    Civil defence at the level you are talking about though is a paper dragon. Lots of studies, lots of recommendations and very little actually done. The civil defence you and I remember was mostly from the 60s and the cold war era. After the Cuban missile mess they had to do a lot to settle peoples nerves. By the mid 80s most of the stuff that they had put aside and into civil defence shelters had rotted. I know this because I checked several out during the 80s and 90% of the supplies were trash; rusted swollen cans of food, mouldy blankets, medicines out of date by lots of years. Now people just aren't scared enough for the government to waste money on civil defence other than studies and "plans". I saw how their "plans" worked in the last few years after hurricanes. Don't expect much!
     
  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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  26. Old Geezer

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  27. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    ROTFLMFAO We got to see how much help FEMA is in Katrina, Rita and last year with Harvey. I will put it to you like this. When God told Noah that there was going to be a flood and he needed to build an ark Noah asked him why he needed an ark and how long was the flood was going to last and how deep the water was going to be. God replied, "How long can you tread water?" That will be the sort of help you will get from FEMA. After the water goes down they will try and find your body.
     
  28. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Active Member
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    I put it like this. And this is my opinion. I think it was Plato that coined the phrase all politics are relative to one's time and place. This could also be applied to this idea about a Golden Horde. When we look at present day Venezuela we see that scores of hungry people are walking in mass across the border to neighboring Columbia. So in fact, people are leaving their home country in mass for food. But looking at New Orleans during hurricane Katrina people just "sheltered in place." Making it a bloody nightmare. But then again, with last years hurricane (name escapes me at the moment) that hit Florida, the media told everyone there to get the hell out, and most did. In fact it was a Golden Horde-like situation as highways were packed full of people trying to get into neighboring states.

    So y0u see, the phrase all politics are relative to one's time and place can indeed be applied to a Golden Horde situation where it could be all survival is relative to one's time and place.

    Just my two copper coins worth of worthless bullion.
     
  29. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Active Member
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    You know what makes matter worse? Electric damn vehicles. People seem to praise these things for their "eco-friendliness." Yet they can't seem to grasp where that power comes form and how it's mostly created: Coal! How eco-friendly is that? But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Since these stupid vehicles require power you're gonna be even more SOL when the power goes down. You simply can't refuel it with a gas can. I do know however that gas stations also require electricity and during hurricanes gas stations are often off line and/or simply run out of fuel. I've always been of the opinion that gas stations should have a natural gas powered backup generator. But then again, that would cut into their profits and so don't give two shits less.

    I've always believed that if you wanted a cheap, eco-friendly vehicle it should be a natural gas powered hybrid. Not only is the United States the current largest producer of NG, but NG is very clean. Combine that with a hybrid setup and you have next to no pollution at all and the fuel is cheap. But we all know about that fuel cartel and other crap that prevents such things from ever getting developed. They'd lose money. But I'm pretty sure they'd just jack up the coast of NG and so too would the government on fuel tax.

    The government has you by the ballz.
     
  30. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    you got to look at how they "prepared" for all those migrants to see how they will fare in an emergency, the only thing the EU are good at is Red Tape and spending other peoples money.
     
  31. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    "NATIONAL ENGAGEMENT - PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS:
    EVACUATION AND SHELTER -IN-PLACE"

    If you take a copy of this and a match you might be able to stay warm for a few minutes. That is about all it's worth. When Harvey dropped 5 feet/1.524 meters of rain on Houston it wasn't Fema, the police, the Military or the National Guard that showed up and helped the people that were stuck in their houses in deep water. It was just plain good old boys that showed up with their fishing boats and pulled those people out. The same was true of who fed them in the places that they were carried to. In the end people like JJ Watt and H.E. Butt that put together aid that got there and helped. Mr. Butts owns a chain of Grocery stores here in Texas. He loaded up dozens of 18 wheelers and organized feeding for thousands. JJ Watts a Houston football player gathered food and then over 30 million dollars in donations to help people affected by the storm. What did Fema do...not much and the FEDs helped out by showing up and trying to arrest Hispanics that were trying to help people clean up after the storm. NO KIDDING!

    If they are that much help on a localized disaster what makes you think that they will do better in a NATIONAL or WORLD WIDE disaster. The only people that they have actual plans with facilities and supplies for will be the politicians and the high officers in the military. The rest of us they want to sit at home and just DIE QUIETLY!
     
  32. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the British government have had plans since the 1980s to close all the motorways and main highways to all but military and emergency traffic, that means in a major catastrophe civilians are going nowhere.
    we don't have a national guard, and the military and police are fully stretched now with all the terrorists and the gang crime, don't expect them to come to your aid in a major event.
     
  33. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I just don't have much faith in a Government taking care of me. In almost every place that the Government "helps" people they, in the end, end up worse off than where they started. The American welfare system for example is a trap that destroys families and family values and in the end only creates more people that are unable to ever take care of themselves.
     
  34. lonewolf

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    not just in America.
     
  35. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I have zero faith in any government taking care of me or anybody else.

    The point I've been trying to make is that in an emergency situation, the government will see starving masses as cattle about to stampede, and will massively overreact. FEMA camps -- the rebuilding of decommissioned Air Force bases into mass-population housing complexes (complete with guard towers and concertina wire topped fences) -- are one example of this sort of going-Big-Brother on the part of government / military.

    The governments of Western nations have plans to take over / "protect" food-distribution warehouses. These are the jobbers / the suppliers of grocery stores. This is another reason to store food, because the government is going to lock-down food distribution to "protect it". This is another reason to never tell anyone that you put-back food -- you will be seen as a person who is not cooperating with the redistribution process.

    Survivalists will be seen as "hoarders" and hoarding will be a felony.

    In good times, farmers sell food goods to city-dwellers. In bad times, farmers will tend to support their own regions, maybe even store food for next year to be distributed to their own towns and families. The latter will be seen by national governments as a failure on the part of agricultural regions to comply with national plans for the redistribution of wealth.

    In the eyes of central governments, city dwellers are entitled to be fed via the use of land, public and private, for agriculture. Note also that the labor of those who live on that land is seen as being for "the greater good", NOT for their own betterment. Down deep, higher-ups in power, the social engineers, do NOT recognize the individual ownership of land -- or the ownership of much of anything else. All Western nations are now under regimes of redistribution and these governments will enforce their will via military might, i.e. violence.

    If urbanites can't get to where food is stored, government armored columns will go out into the country and take what they are told to take so as to feed the masses. Oppose this and you will be deemed an "enemy of the people." The success of this will be determined by the military strength of the country in question. Governments will pull their forces from overseas deployment and bring them back to restore order within their national boundaries. If their immediate neighbors are weak, then the weak will be overrun.

    Military personnel will obey orders to the degree that their actions will bring food and life's necessities to their own families. Governments will assure their military men and women that, "Do this for us and rest assured that your own families will NOT go without." This is what Napoleon Bonaparte did. This is one of several reasons why his men loved him. Notice around this planet that when there exists mass-famine, the soldiers and their families are well fed. "Whoever owns the guns, makes the rules."
     
  36. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    in Britain there are nationally 122,000 Police and 81,700 Army troops, that is not enough to control a population of 65 million and rising, the London riots showed us just how easy it is for the "authorities" to lose control.
     
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