The Hong Kong Riots

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Pragmatist, Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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  2. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    FYI only western medias calling those rioter / looter as "protester". I'm guessing the western medias (and public maybe?) must have love the idea of torching or looting down business establishment in the spirit of "Fair Distribution of Someone Else Wealth"

    I'm lucky enough I've already managed to get my money out of there (minuscule amount of forex)
     
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  3. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    In the end it's all down to perspective...one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
     
  4. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    Western media is divided. In the US, the division is far from 50% - 50%. Most of the large national-level media supports disestablishment of current institutions.

    The HK protesters comprise both the frustrated camp-followers and the criminal elements. Throwing a fire bomb at a police officer is not protesting. Carrie Lam's HK Government and the undercover PLA have identified the criminals. Matter pending.

    HK FOREX is still as safe as the Rock of Gibraltar. Of course, DBS - Development Bank of Singapore - loves extra deposits.

    I haven't had any FOREX since Hillary was First Lady.
     
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  5. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I find the HK situation to be quite counterintuitive. The HK protesters are asking to preserve their freedoms, mainland China wants HK to crack down on the protests. At the same time China is, slowly but gradually, liberalising. It has become something of a conundrum. If the Chinese authorities crack down with force, as they did at Tiananmen Square in 1989, the whole world will see it. China sells goods throughout the western world, and that market could easily be jeopardised for them should sanctions be brought in as a result.

    One wonders of it would make better sense for China to allow Hong Kong to retain its freedoms and resolve this situation peacefully.
     
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  6. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Brownbear,

    HK protesters have the same/similar freedoms as they did when Br Gov Chris Paton (sp?) handed over the place.

    What the problem is: housing. The apex of the protest leaders - some highly paid medical doctors - cannot buy houses in HK. They fail to accept that HK is the world's most expensive residential housing market. None the less, they could not buy houses in today's Grenwich Village, Manhattan, New York City or San Francisco. It is expensive in these places !

    Beijing is addressing the HK housing problem and they started well prior to the riots in HK. HK and Macao are being "merged" with 9 Pearl River Guangdong Province cities into an economic zone mirroring aspects of the US Silicon Valley (metro San Francisco) with housing, schools and the rest for middle-class living.



    I do not consider it protesting when someone throws a fire bomb (Molotov / Molotov cocktail) or throws bricks from overpasses onto cars.
     
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  7. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    (Re sp - It is Chris Patten).

    It is being reported, in the UK, as much to do with the attempted removal of some civil liberties in HK. I ave no doubt that housing costs are an uncomfortable problem in HK, but again we fall foul of stories reported differently in different countries (and for different reasons). HK is of particular interest in the UK because, as you know, it came under our jurisdiction until 1997.

    I know nothing of fire bombs, however, the protests have been reported for a lengthy time here and appeared to start as the "umbrella" protest where people simply blacked roads etc en mass and used umbrellas as a unifying symbol (I suspect to keep anonymity under CCTv, but that may be supposition on my part). Clearly the matter has escalated, but that would seem to be as a response to the HK police using firmer tactics.

    What is interesting is the apparent parallel to the yellow vest protests in France. That started as an opposition to fuel duty rises and has now come to encompass a general dislike for anything their government attempts to do. I wonder if we are entering a period of global dissatisfaction with our governments?
     
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  8. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    My forex account was in small firm who doesn't ask questions. The Singaporean authority putting out "inquiry" against me in person (and anyone else) for drawing out my funding out of their banking system due to my participation in Indonesia Tax Amnesty program back in early 2017. Suffice to say I was seriously considered the possibilities that they going to lock me up. Thus I took a boat ride to Batam instead of flying back to Surabaya, at least on water or around boats I have better fighting chance compare to within airport. Luckily the whole mess was eventually settled at the Head of Government level
     
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  9. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Brownbear,

    Appreciate info that it's Chris Patten.

    I do believe there are common denominators to the HK protests, the French yellow vest protests, the US "Tea Party" and related, onward to some major protests in Middle Eastern countries.

    The initial, explicit, reason that generated the HK protests was proposed legislation in the HK Government for a form of extradition treaty ( "a form of" - HK is not sovereign) HK-China proper. This proposed legislation was submitted under HK's "Basic Law". The proposal was cancelled and recently - about 2-3 weeks ago, was formally withdrawn.

    Yes, fire bombs, bricks dropped from overpasses onto cars, arson - a Christmas tree was burned in a mall about 4 days ago.

    Of course - and most importantly - media reports are slanted articles for the audiences they want to reach and influence.

    I have biases but my HK comments are about as neutral and objective as I can get. One exception - perhaps an exception - ......
    Medical doctors are being phased out in the Western societies as highly-paid professionals helping the people. The trend is toward Mao's "barefoot doctors". This phase-out of rich medical doctors and related highly-compensated labor such as CPA's (Chartered Accountants if I remember my British-English), are going away and into the history books.
     
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  10. Pragmatist

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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    Walk into any bank for FOREX matters and you're on some type of list.

    Would you not think the Indonesian Tax Amnesty program involved a "sidebar" agreement with Singapore ? I'd guess also with Macao, MSAR.

    Do note that Batam - and also Bintin - are part of the US - Singapore trade agreement. I'd guess these islands are watched a bit more than other places.

    I am now in the mood for a few Tiger beers near the old National Stadium, S'pore.
     
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  11. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    The HK withdrawal issue makes sense, it has been mentioned in the UK media. I guess it is the issue I was alluding to, although I didn't place it as that. There was something to do with China's mainland law being applied, which does sound like the same thing.

    Not sure I agree with your thoughts on medical doctors. I am assuming you mean generally rather than in HK? Certainly in the UK we do not have enough doctors to "go round", huge waiting lists etc. That is due to people not wishing to train as the training is long and arduous, coupled with poor initial salaries and excessive demand for hours. (If I have missed your point, please correct me).

    The problem with the media, when viewed on a global scale, is that no matter how reasonable one's own views are, or even how moderate, we can only view from afar, with our own bias (or prejudice) instilled by the way our own country reports the news - referring back to President Trump, the UK media play him as a complete fool, yet I get the feeling, from a different website I regularly view, that he is highly thought of in the US. Whereas, in the UK, we think more highly of President Obama as being a president "of the people" (as if we can actually have a legitimate view from outside the US).
     
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  12. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    The problem with the media, when viewed on a global scale, is that no matter how reasonable one's own views are, or even how moderate, we can only view from afar, with our own bias (or prejudice) instilled by the way our own country reports the news - referring back to President Trump, the UK media play him as a complete fool, yet I get the feeling, from a different website I regularly view, that he is highly thought of in the US. Whereas, in the UK, we think more highly of President Obama as being a president "of the people" (as if we can actually have a legitimate view from outside the US).[/QUOTE] --from Brownbear ------- Observing posts on here from non-U.S. citizens has led me to believe that they are being feed the exact crap you described . Brown bear your personal observation is correct . Even here in the U.S. we have a certain amount of folks that have watched the fake news and believed it . These " useful idiots " as the Democrat / communist have been caught calling them or running around in the U.S. in hysterics . It would be actually funny if it wasn't so serious .
     
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  13. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    --from Brownbear ------- Observing posts on here from non-U.S. citizens has led me to believe that they are being feed the exact crap you described . Brown bear your personal observation is correct . Even here in the U.S. we have a certain amount of folks that have watched the fake news and believed it . These " useful idiots " as the Democrat / communist have been caught calling them or running around in the U.S. in hysterics . It would be actually funny if it wasn't so serious .[/QUOTE]

    People can be forgiven for believing some of the fake news - a lot of it is very convincing, especially if the viewpoint appeals to the readers own viewpoint.

    I agree 100% with you on it being funny if it wasn't so serious.
     
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  14. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    I don't mind if they ask for copy of my passport, but anything more than that is a deal breaker.

    It does, but there are "ways" around those.

    I'm aware of it. My primary reasoning for going by boat to Batam was more to reach Indonesia side of the border (just in case), and being near the sea with plenty of boats around with the jungle of Sumatera within eye sight mean I have more fighting chance if it came to that (luckily it doesn't)

    WTF?! :eek: Here, this is so much better (and cheaper) :cool::D

    c222012c5c7031c01414a7fa78d521e0.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  15. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    That is why one shouldn't rely solely from medias outlets (more so if you running business). If I were to rely in medias reporting to make decision I would end up keep losing money due to inaccurate (framed) medias narrative.

    BTW Have you ever follow the medias reporting from non-western & non-China medias regarding HK riots? When troops of folks start torching business establishment, vandalising public properties, throwing molotov, firecracker, etc than they are NOT protester (let alone peaceful), they are called rioter or criminals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  16. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Brownbear,

    Yes, was talking "generally" throughout the "western world" in re medical doctors. Throughout the late 1950s (after Korean War) until circa the 1980s, MDs could have their own practice and had much business because of government-funded payments and labor union funded payments. Plus, the MDs were running a cartel so they controlled the number of doctors, medical schools and related.

    In the US, there is also a current shortage of doctors for all areas. It is being corrected. The medical - and hospital cartels are being broken up. Medical studies have been expanded. Some experimental programs to expand the health care labor force are still being worked on. Ditto for dentists. I know 2 dentists who started as dental hygienists. Their professional work equals those from the famous (and expensive) dental schools.

    The media is only one source (although a major one) to form views. Visiting the area, corresponding with "locals" of the place, checking the area's business market, talking to returnees, .. all can help form decent views. Just checking in one's own country what it takes to open a business in a foreign area is very revealing.

    Trump is like your PM: both are symbols and lightning rods.

    The main UK media and the main US media are really specialized political vehicles for opinion molding.

    I am a political member of Team Trump. He has a national following and it's not just the down-trodden. It doesn't show up in the "main" media but Trump has helped America's black citizens more than President Obama.
     
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  17. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Such "arts" has already forgotten by the younger generation.

    I've notice such traits mostly from mainland European and East Asia business persons, but haven't seen such from Anglosphere business person (you guys seem to love your news & gov't reports so much)
     
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  18. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    My main news source is to go straight to the source . I visit Donald Trump's twitter feed daily to see what he actually does or says . I don't need a second party to give me their version of what he is saying or doing . I would highly recommend this to all our members regardless of what your present view is " pro or against Trump " . Part of my news comes actually from this site and part by grazing on YouTube . What you will learn is vastly different than the crap some of the so called news media will try to get people to believe . A word of caution the fake news has set up fake Donald Trump twitter accounts designed to put him in a bad light . Make sure you go to the real Donald Trump feed , then put it on your favorites . It shows up as Donald J.Trump @real Donald Trump . For those that have fallen into the communist trap --the very fact that they have set up fake Donald Trump twitter feeds should be solid proof that the news media does not want the public to know the truth .
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  19. Pragmatist

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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    With your passport info and the follow-on transaction(s), is there any more to learn ?

    When the Indonesian tax amnesty program involves 3 comma Yen and 2 comma $US, there might be additional side bars. Don't hand wrestle with bankers.

    Understand the Batem trip.

    That brand of beer looks refreshing !
     
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  20. Pragmatist

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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    I am an "Anglo" business person with no love of domestic "news" and government reports.
     
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  21. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Well.... I do have multiple identity (with birth certificate and other paperwork included), although for passport I use my "public identity" And beside I'm a poor person here (low income bracket) :( and I need to pay for tax adviser + attorney who will doing their best to keep me in that low income bracket.

    BTW You know that Kenya guy Berry Santoso (the TWICE ELECTED POTUS). I won't be surprised if he also have Kenya and Indonesia Birth Certificate alongside his Hawaii Birth Certificate.

    It definitely exists without doubt, and I also wasn't try to wrestle against the HK based firm either. It just I prefer to do banking with financial firm that has reputation of "less cooperating" with any gov't (banks still live or die by reputation). I've also took measures to diversified everything (not putting all the eggs in the same basket)

    I believe there is "generational" gap between the older generation who rely in boot on the ground assessment vs the younger generation (starting from Millennial) who solely rely in news medias outlet, govt report or worse Wikipedia & Google to make all kind of assessment.

    Curiously doing the boot on the ground assessment is still prevalence among the younger generation of continental European and East Asia business community. And its not uncommon for them to use local private / independent contractor to do most of the leg work :cool:
     
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  22. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Actually I think our PM Boris Johnson might just be a Nimrod ;)
     
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  23. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I suspect that is more about perspectives. Authoritarian regimes tend to use slightly more defined terms in these cases. The European view is much more towards them being protesters, despite the obvious reality that part of the protests have drifted into criminal acts. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
     
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  24. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I don't know that street protests ever accomplish much and they tend to cross over into violence probably due to the protests being taken over by the renta mob and Anarchy type .
    the only way to alter a law or a ruling is to use the legal means to do so or getting involved in politics oneself. in others words the only way to change something is on the inside.
    12.56pm. lunchtime news says that the protestors are now firing Fire Arrows at the Police!!
    how much more before the Military are called in? there is a limit to how much the Chinese Government will be prepared to allow. this has gone far beyond a simple protest now.
     
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  25. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Varuna,

    Ah ha ! Additional identification docs ! Were you working for ESSO Eastern or Civil Air Transport ? (Just joking !)

    Now I can guess, with accuracy, why you appeared on Surabaya television news.

    That Kenya guy's "mom" was working in Jakarta on a Ford Foundation grant. There were some additional connections to this "grant" and some persons involved in it. The Administrator of the Ford Foundation's Asia Division and the Obama Secretary of the Treasury has a connection.

    Money can buy Indonesian birth certificates, Hawaiian birth certificates, nice houses in Hawaii, California, Lakefront Chicago, ... Banks can also buy their reputations.
     
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  26. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    I can't help but wonder if will end up as another Tiananmen Square fiasco, despite my earlier reservations.
     
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  27. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    You're considering the issue through the eyes of a free individual. China monitors and controls every aspect of everyones lives and give them a score so they can be more sternly controlled. China is all about power.
     
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  28. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    It won't. You need to understand the different line of thinking between us Asian vs Western folks.
     
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  29. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    LOL I'm more of a Independent Contractor nowadays, albeit mostly doing work for my parent, to the point I often get confused whether I was interacting with them as my parent or as my employer :(

    It was during my days as college student political activist, and I no longer participate in any real politika nowadays.
     
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  30. Pragmatist

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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    Just keep the resume current and updated. Stuff is going on very rapidly in the interlocked global arena.

    Like much else in life, it doesn't matter if person is parent or employer. It is the pay check / account receivable that is being sought.

    An adage from up north of you: "Smart man seek political office. Wise man help him."

    I don't know the time bracket you were a student but recall the blind Prime Minister and his deputy was Sarkarno's daughter (she gained weight). I'm into a little politics myself - I am on Team Trump - with the most enjoyable aspect of this in seeing our opponent fools here in the US thinking they will be subsidized for the rest of their lives. In the US, the party's over.
     
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  31. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Why not? As I can safely assume you are not able to see into the future perhaps you might like to explain why you think it won't. The Tiananmen protest was put down with absolute brutality by the same regime in China that exists today. They appear to have mellowed, but the possibility of it happening is still surely very high?

    Also thank you for suggesting that I need to understand the different line in thinking between Asian vs Western folks. Perhaps you might explain that also? I gather from that sentence that you are Asian, or of Asian descent and I would value your viewpoint on the matter.
     
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  32. Brownbear

    Brownbear Master Survivalist
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    Maybe, but are we free enough to see it that way? I am to sure we are free. It's a philosophical question for a different thread.
     
  33. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    I can see that happening if it goes on much longer.
     
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  34. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    They actually doesn't give me any paycheck per se, what they give is allowance. So technically I'm still within the unemployment bracket (which is just fine with me), although I'm still part of the Militarily Industrial Complex mostly doing CT related stuff, but gov't / defense contract is always tricky.

    There isn't Prime Minister here, we are using Presidential system in a weird mix of Unitarian & Federalism Republic. That blind guy only in office for short while (far less than a term) before Soekarno daughter succeed him. But during his short term he open the door for the Mormons who has been very active in providing disaster relieve and other humanitarian assistance in some remote area where no journalist dare to come.

    • Why assaulting a walled city if you already control the lifeline of that city?
    • One shouldn't initiate attack toward the enemy at the front before securing own flank
     
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  35. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "Last month, China surpassed the Soviet Union as history’s longest-lived communist government, and Beijing is at least as tyrannical as Moscow ever was. It has thrown as many as 3 million Muslim Uighurs into 21st-century gulags. It is also destroying Christian churches and stifling other faiths. Worst of all, China is using technology to build the world’s largest surveillance state. Its goal is to rid the Chinese people of their yearning for freedom.

    "Even as Beijing tries to remake mankind, it wants to remake the world in its authoritarian image. Nowhere is this more evident than in China’s violent crackdown on freedom in Hong Kong. The protesters know this is their last stand, and that Beijing won’t stop unless the free world — including the United States — speaks up far more forcefully."

    https://www.rgj.com/story/opinion/v...unist-comeback-and-how-stop-smith/2530944001/

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    These people of Hong Kong seek the equal distribution of Liberty. A pile of bricks currently are their only tool against totalitarianism and tanks.
     
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  36. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    Appreciate clarification re Chief of State titles in Indonesia. I do remember it was - President- Suharto and also, earlier elsewhere, - President Charles De Gaulle. It's just not standardized !
     
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