The Modern Firearm In Survival.

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Keith H., Jun 16, 2016.

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  1. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Given the difficulty in repairing the modern firearm by the average person, & given the extra weight of brass shells & cartridges & the need for primers & reloading equipment, how suitable do you think the modern firearms is for use in a survival environment where you have to use this tool for hunting & defence? Can it be considered a sustainable option?
    Keith.
     
  2. glreese

    glreese Member
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    I think that it depends on the firearm as well as the individual situation. The firearm has many pros and cons, however I would definitely choose it over a knife or probably even over a bow. While it is heavy, and you have to have ammunition, it is generally very accurate, and if not, it is somewhat easy to aim. In all of my experience, guns have been very reliable. I think it is the best tool for hunting. I've never had to use one for defense, but I'm confident if I had to, it would do it's job.
     
  3. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    Waterproof multi rounds easy to clean and maintain highly accurate at long distance the modern firearm is by far better than the muzzleloader in many ways is a far better choice for survival
     
  4. Endure

    Endure Expert Member
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    Not reliable on the long term unless you have someone able to craft ammunition and repair jammed weaponry. But also you need smelting skills, metallurgy work in general, mining metal or scrapping them from junk. Therefore, I think even with the knowledge, the options out there are still limited to keep modern firearms in a sustainable manner. There is a lot of conditions to meet you see.
     
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  5. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I agree Endure, unless you carry a large supply of ammunition, I fail to see how a modern firearm can be considered a sustainable option for hunting & self-defence. Even then, if you are not able to repair any malfunction, you can still be left holding a goat stake & a club.
    Keith.
     
  6. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    Modern firearm in 22 cal and 500 rounds well under ten lbs to carry muzzleloader and 500balls powder for load powder for pan patches lube. Powder measure starter ram flints or caps. Weigh how much ?
     
  7. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    If you think you are so right, why are you avoiding answering the question instead of your usual bullshit of trying to rubbish the muzzle-loader? Look at the original post, where do I mention a muzzle-loader? I don't, but seeing as you have, weight is not the only consideration here, & again as I said, I do NOT consider the modern firearm a good sustainable option for long term wilderness living if it is going to be used for hunting & defence.
    Perhaps as you seem to consider yourself an expert on the use of the Flintlock, perhaps you could tell us just how long you have been using one for hunting? Where did you get the 500 balls figure from? I don't need that many. You will with a .22, but I don't. Where did you get the priming powder from? I don't need priming powder. Patch lube? What patch lube, I don't use patches or patch material. Short starter? I don't use one or need one. You have no idea what you are talking about, so how about you stick to what you know & cut the bullshit.
    from now on I will be ignoring your posts. If I could add you to my ignore list I would, but somehow you got to be a Moderator so I can't!
    Keith.
     
  8. Tom Williams

    Tom Williams Moderator Staff Member
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    Ivebeen useing firearms all my life includeing muzzleioaders of which i own 3 a flintlock a cap lock and a inline i own 114 firearms in total your old 300year old smoothbore in 20g is a fine old firearm the slugs you use are heavy .680 slug no patch your ram that in unlubed is very hard to do after fireing a few rounds would be every hard harder without a ball starter i know guns well keith i got a ruger semi auto 22lr and a brick of 500rds i will take to the range any day and shoot that 500 rounds with no trouble and the eeapon will do it again rught after we finish with a brush there it and a little oil fire yours 500 times with no misfires no problems and i would be very impressed you can make gun powdered so can i but we know what to use how to mix it you live in the past i live in the year 2016 when the shtf i will have those 3muzzleloaders here and they will be used as needed but im reaching first for the m14. And stsnd a far better chance of holding my place than you ever will and yes i will bury you with my knowledge of firearms and their care and maintance of them your gun needs to be put in a honored place and used only if needed its dirty unrealsble has limited distance and not the best choice for survival
     
  9. James98

    James98 Well-Known Member
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    I have not used both types of firearms so my opinion may be slightly bias however i do believe that a modern brass cased rifle is far superior to any other older style rifles and here is why.
    A modern rifle is more accurate to farther distances which means that if you are not as practiced in hunting as you would want to be going into SHTF you have a better chance of a successful hunt. in addition to this, they reload faster which could be an advantage if you are hunting larger game and want to take two shots so you do not have to track it as far if the first one was not right on target.
    I would say that as far as longevity of the rifle is concerned if you buy a good quality rifle of any category and treat it right it should be a multi-generational tool
    as far as the complications with reloading a modern firearm, There are many inexpensive tools on the market that are capable of reloading without too much difficulty and if you were to have a traditional rifle you would still have to keep reloading supplies such as powder and bullets. I would say that the easiest way would be to stock up on rifle ammunition
    in north America you should be able to find an SKS for around $300 and I just checked you can get 1500 rounds for $350 which should be enough to keep food on the table for a very long time
    If you are concerned about the rifle breaking then buy 2 for that price I feel that it is an investment that will not depreciate ( so you could sell it in the future if you want) and that would be able to keep you safe and fed.
     
  10. Brett Eden

    Brett Eden New Member
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    Have you tried an AR?
     
  11. Brett Eden

    Brett Eden New Member
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    They arent heavy, and not to bulky.
     
  12. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    I mean no disrespect but that statement makes no sense at all to me.
    Repair? I've had modern firearms for over SIXTY years.
    I was a competitive combat handgun shooter. I NEVER had a firearm break nor have I ever seen
    one break.
    I KNOW one man that owned a Competition T.B. Trap 870 Remington that he fired 1,000,000
    (ONE MILLION) trap loads with and ZERO breakage.
    I shot 1,000 rounds per week from a tuned M-14 Smith without a fail to function.
    Gun writer Skeet Skelton fire 100,000 rounds from a gov't 1911 .45 a.c.p. with out a breakage
    without cleaning it.
    To each his own.
    Uninformed opinions are like the anal orifice. Everyone had one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
  13. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    YES it is.
    I wish I had that rifle in your picture!
     
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  14. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Your comment is based on your personal experience jeager, my comment is based on my personal experience.
    Keith.
     
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  15. James98

    James98 Well-Known Member
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    It is important to specify what is meant by a modern firearm. there is a big difference between muzzle loaders, bolt action, and semi/fully automatic firearms. there are advantages and disadvantages to every firearm depending on the situation. There are some similarities that all firearms have that are used in this feed to promote one type over the other and I think that these have no value. The first being that you need to fix and maintain modern firearms but not muzzleloaders and the second being that with modern firearms you need to have stockpiled ammunition. With any firearm you are required to stockpile in order to be able to use it long term. With any firearm you require a projectile and an accelerant. Both of which require tools to make and materials that are not regularly available in the natural environment. And the second argument is that it is hard to fix modern firearms. Any firearm can break and can require use of tools and parts to fix them regardless of the type. Having said this there are some firearms that are more prone to failure and that require more tools and parts to fix. For this reason I would put both muzzle loaders and bolt action rifles in the same easy to fix category and any fully/semi automatic rifle in a more difficult to fix category. This is for the simple reason that the more moving parts the more likely to fail and the harder to fix.

    As far as ammunition stockpiling is concerned the amount of ammunition required to hunt and survive off of is less than I think a lot of people anticipate. Assuming that it take 5 shots per animal which is a lot, and then that you need 5 animals per year per person, if you were anticipating a 10 year collapse which for any developed country would be very unlikely you are looking at about 200 rounds per person which for someone serious about prepping is not a lot.


    Now assuming that muzzle loaders are in the older technology category and all other firearms are lumped as modern firearms I will share my opinion.

    If I had to choose one firearm to take to the woods in a long term survival situation I would choose a high power bolt action rifle and here is why. As far as defence goes it would be devastating to anyone it hit. It also would typically have a slightly farther range than other action types giving me an advantage if I saw the threat coming from farther away. Also bolt action is irrefutably the most accurate rifle meaning less skill is required for hunting. And they have very few moving parts and so are not likely to have any failures that would cause the firearm to become inoperable meaning that as far as reliability is concerned they would be about as reliable as any firearm can get.

    Another advantage of modern firearms is that they are more weather resistant that most muzzleloaders.

    Now if I were worried about other people and defending myself I may choose a semi automatic rifle because they are able to send more ammunition down range faster than any other civilian firearm is able to and so I would feel more comfortable knowing that the weapon is ready to go in case a follow up shot is required. In the case of using it for personal protection you would go through ammunition fairly quickly in fights but you would only be engaging in fights with firearms while other people still have ammunition meaning that you don't need an endless amount you just need more than the other person has which in most cases isnt much more than a few boxes. At the end of the day if you have a dozen well armed people working together to take you down you really don't have much of a chance regardless of that you have.


    And finally while it is important to eventually get to the what if i have to live in the woods forever type prepping for some it is important to worry about the more likely situations first which generally would not last more than a few months and I think that in those short term SHTF situations it is important to have a variety of modern firearms to get you through. And so in long term situations you would still have those modern weapons anyways and I think that more ammunition for the guns that you do have is more important than more guns because there will always be a day for any gun that it becomes a paperweight if you can not feed it.
    and if weight is an issue because you are carrying it in a long term bug out bag you have bigger problems than running out of ammuntion or lightening your firearm
     
  16. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Our personal experience is all we have.
    However we learn from others. YOU included. :>)
    Ergo why I'm here.
     
  17. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I am more concerned with feeding myself than the possibility of getting into a fire fight. My muzzle-loader ammo will last longer than your breech-loading ammo.
    Keith.
     
  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Let me speak of one caliber I stock: I've got .303 Brit ammo from the 1950s. This stuff has mercuric primers. when I shoot this stuff, I do get some split necks on the brass, but the deed is done and the accuracy is sufficient for a survival situation or three. Mercury fumes break down brass over the decades but the #### goes BANG.

    Got some of the "good stuff" in .303 Brit. -- Greek ammo headed for Hong Kong and the Gurkha troops stationed there. Lacquered primers, annealed necks, non-mercuric primers, ... -- this ammo is brilliant, though it "fell off a truck" decades ago. And this lot will last decades into the future.

    I routinely fire 30+ yr old .22 lr.

    Smokeless powder is very, very stable. Keep black powder dry and cool and it too will keep.

    If things go sideways where I live, I'll have many folk about who are much like me, civilized & won't panic. However, Oh boy!, but there sure are some monsters about these environs, plus there are sure to be huge crews of interlopers from urban areas 100 to 200 miles away. These monsters will form packs, 100% likelihood. Therefore I and those like me need repeating weapons. I've identified people who I will support should they go low in ammo ... to include the cops. I'll not stand by and watch the police / sheriff's deputies get overwhelmed -- where I live, the cops are sewed on straight, they are not from urban areas, they are pro-civilian rights, pro-Constitution, i.e. mostly good folk, and I'm not going to let them get killed.
     
  19. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    I'm rather fortunate I think in that I don't intend to bug out.
    As I've mentioned I live in crowed Ohio but in a somewhat secluded niche on 15 acres with
    only one close neighbor.
    That neighbor will come over to the sane side with me if a shtf situation happens.
    I'll help them so they can help me.
    I have 15 acres, 14 woods, and a safe wood burning stove.
    3 chain saws, gas, oil, chains, etc, and if I run out of gas then I have a BIG crosscut saw.
    I keep 25 gallons of stabilized gad.
    I have easily scrounged enough downed dead wood to last weeks.
    I have a large outdoor barrel type steel wood fired cooker/smoker.
    Still I'm an army of but one and can be overcome by gobblins.
    But it won't be easy for them.
    How many really want to die?
    I think they'd move on to those less prepared than loose a bunch of their numbers
    to a crazy man with loaded guns.
    LOTS of loaded guns. Like 50.
    :D:D
     
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  20. Hick Industries

    Hick Industries Member
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    Yes, in my experience a modern semi auto rifle, is the only sustainable option.

    Steel Traps and fishing rods, are good for making meat..
    A recurve bow is good for hunting in my area, less great for defense.
    A black powder muzzle loader is a marginal hunting weapon, loud enough to attract atention, and very poor defensive weapon.
    So once you ask about both hunting and defense, I quickly focus on a modern cartridge rifle.

    Still leaves you with lots of options.
    I reload both smokeless and black powder cartridges. A rifle chambered in 30-30, 44 mag, and 45-70 are certainly worth considering because they can be loaded with cast lead bullets, smokeless or black powder.

    I hunt with single shot, lever action, bolt action, and semi auto rifles.
    They all work great for large and small game.
    But the semi auto wins easily for defense against multiple threats,
     

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  21. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    How many reliable shots do you get off each Flint Keith? I was talking to a guy who shoots muzzle loaders and he says it can be a little variable. Where I am Flint is quite rare and awkward to get hold of. Buying ready made flints works out at around £1.25 each for a good quality ready knapped flint. (I picked up a couple to use with my fire steel)
     
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  22. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    There's no logical reason t believe that is true.

    A modern gun will be far more accurate and efficient than any muzzle loader.
     
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  23. Sonofliberty

    Sonofliberty Well-Known Member
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    It is possible that he can make his own black powder and cast his own bullets. If that is true, then he may be correct.
     
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  24. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Expert Member
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    To go back to the original post the question I would ask is how long do you consider sustainable? I have multiple firearms, and a substantial amount of ammo for each. I own many different calibers, and some of the calibers are duplicated i.e. several guns all the same caliber. If one gun is damaged I may have another of the same caliber, or I can get another one. I don't expect to be in a real fire fight where several hundred rounds are fired.

    All of my firearms are good, quality, well manufactured, highly reliable. Some I have put thousands of rounds through, and I would expect the same reliability from the others. IMHO my firearms will last a lot longer than I will. They will not last forever, but that would be a true TEOTWAWKI situation.
     
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  25. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    People using modern firearms can do that too.
    Black powder was used in many "modern firearms" up until around 1900.

    There are also powder substitutes that can be made from simple ingredients like sugar and saltpeter along with iron oxide.

    It's no easier to make Black Powder than it is to stock smokeless powder or loaded ammo.

    People are still shooting surplus military ammo from WWII.
    Sometimes they are firing it in guns made at that time also.
     
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  26. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I think it all has to be put into perspective. Can modern smokeless gun powder be made at home--- NO---. Can the average person make black powder --- NO. It takes certain skills, knowledge and components to make Black powder. Will smokeless powder last, --- YES, if stored properly. Will modern ammo last --- Yes again if stored properly. So it really breaks down to what do you want to do. Store ammo, smokeless powder or store black powder components. As for durability of modern firearms, as good or better than the black powder replicas. Both types of firearms will require components not sitting at the local hardware store. You will need to stock these components.
     
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  27. lalakai

    lalakai Member
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    Perhaps the choice might be considered in the same fashion regarding bugging out or staying at home. Each action requires distinctly different approaches and results. At home where I don't have to worry about lugging ammo, repair kit/parts, it makes sense to look at the more powerful options regarding firearms. If I'm bugging out the only long gun I will take will either be a breakdown .22, or the combo .22/410 (pistols are always part of the equation). In either situation, an armed confrontation would only happen because I failed to avoid it.

    Do modern firearms have a place in my plans....yes.....selectively. But I'm not going to depend on them for food; attracts too much attention to what you have and where you are. IMHO
     
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