The Realities Of Urban Survival Post Shtf

Discussion in 'The Apocalypse' started by lonewolf, Oct 26, 2019.

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  1. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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  2. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Doesn't wan't to sound like bragging here, but I had live trough political riot in which I'm one the target because my name & signature is on a piece of political statement and my face in national TV, I had also seen what happen after the majority of government bureaucracy along with the majority of the police force and the military garrison suddenly dead (as in taken by mother nature) and the complete loss of law & order as a result. And suffice to say things was not always as bleak as it always been framed by all those survivalist / prepper articles. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that such situation will not occurs, however everything will depend mostly to the region initial socio-economic-cultural factors. In a place where the local folk has a culture of sticking-it-together will fare a lot better compare to region where the culture is the opposite.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      Don't know if your old enough to remember when the coup occurred and Ferdinand Marcos was overthrown and exiled. It was a dangerous time in your country. I was there for the 6 weeks leading up to him leaving. The bases were locked down for the most part.
      When I was young, I had a bad habit of being in bad places at bad times. I learned to survive.
       
      Dalewick, Oct 26, 2019
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    2. varuna
      Dale, I'm not from Philippines I'm from Indonesia
       
      varuna, Oct 26, 2019
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    3. Dalewick
      Varuna, My apologies! For some reason I thought I had read that you were from the Philippines.
      Dale
       
      Dalewick, Oct 26, 2019
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  3. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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  4. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I would agree with scenarios detailed in the articles. Most are quite realistic, and could very well happen. I didn't see much in the way of solutions. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place. I am looking for an article that says Here is the Problem you may face, and Here are a couple of solutions to help alleviate or at least mitigate the problem. Am I asking for to much?
     
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  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    no you are quite right, the 2 articles only set out the problems, they do not give the solutions.
    people have to research the solutions, each might be different depending on one's personal situation.
     
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  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapo...e-to-help-with-violent-crime-officer-shortage

    Defunding the police in action.

    Tens of millions of Americans and I believe that once a city has decided to reduce the police force, then they should be denied help from other municipalities. Witness the comments of the readers of the above article.

    Were I living away from the city needing help, I would be mightily infuriated were my tax dollars to go to the salvation of some city too stupid to survive.

    Let them eat their decisions. Let mayhem rule. If the inhabitants try to escape, we should not provide accommodations of any sort. They wanted to appease the aggressors living in their city, so let them do it face to face.

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    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  7. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    in the UK we have had a reducing Police presence for a long time, out here in the countryside our nearest manned Police station is 25 to 30 miles away, this is the best part of an hours normal drive on our roads, not much good if one is faced with an armed intruder.
    thankfully most crime in rural areas is of the "domestic" variety, there isnt much here to interest a big city criminal.
     
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  8. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Old Geezer,

    LOL ! "officer shortage".

    Just read the Fox Mpls link.

    There are discount bulk rates for body bags.

    Reading the article's comments shows the civilization aspects of real "Middle America".

    The municipal governments are no longer representative of the citizenry.
     
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  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Excellent. Rural England has a population composed of blood English people. You guys will behave like blood English people -- which is to say you will behave in a civilized fashion with a few "bad apples" thrown in, no gene pool is absolutely perfect. English blood lines who moved to the USA are a key component of our best citizenry. Their crime rates are the same as that of their cousins back in England -- access to firearms has next to zero effect on behavior. One could hand out handguns to English citizens in England who have no criminal record and they would continue in their current behavioral patterns, with precious little blip in crime. Overall in the USA, fists, feet, and elbows kill more people than all rifles and shotguns combined -- including "assault rifles".

    The cities of England in the past few decades have taken on peoples who have been at their neighbors' throats and at each other's throats forever.

    In England and in other countries who behave in a civilized fashion, the aggressive people managed to kill-off each other. Hurrah!!!
    .
     
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  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    80% of the British population now lives in cities, that is where the jobs are, but its also where the protests, anarchy and crime is to be found.
     
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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    The following point you make is an essential disease factor in this former-USA:

    "The municipal governments are no longer representative of the citizenry."

    So true.

    This same phenomenon is also true within the Federal Government. Representatives coming from urban cancers to serve in D.C. do not have a clue about the real America.

    Americans and Amerikans have two separate world-views. These two groups of people cannot be unified. Since the beginning of this nation, we have had millions of sheeple -- not citizens -- who are the sort of people who will, even wish, to bow down before bullies and "their betters". Such inferior weak little people seek to appease -- not overcome -- aggressors. Real Americans are willing to wipe-out would-be kings and queens. The capitulation-disease numbers and the aggressor numbers have now grown to the point where this nation is collapsing.

    Side point: Look at the pencil-necked boys carrying arms for Antifa. Even with rifles, these weaklings are sitting ducks. Should they discharge their weapons against genuine fighting forces, they will only give away their position. As to other components of new communist revolution, their minds are insufficient to the task of regimented military engagement. Neither crew in the armies of the Left have the will to fight when they begin to take significant casualties. Without REAL military and police forces to protect them, most they are gonners should America go full-tilt civil war.

    In Northern Ireland during The Troubles, both sides had the mind, will, and discipline to stand and fight. Irrespective of one's bias, despite the hideous actions of some soldiers on both sides, the opposing soldiers -- "terrorists" if you wish to call them that -- had the will and ability to fight in the face of potential death.

    In the current America, many calling for revolution and who will actively engage in aggression will be walking into a meat-grinder. What the MSM calls far-Right militias are most often composed of ex-military, many of whom have been in combat and have personally given the enemy a stack of casualties.

    Old Geezer makes another digression: In Charlottesville, 2017, wanna-be Klan and wanna-be NAZIs showed up to protest the pulling-down of statues of Civil War principals and Founding Fathers. The local Social Democrats and a bunch of UVa professors funded the bringing-in of Leftist forces, particularly Antifa. The BLM crew were local blacks and seemed to enjoy beating up the pathetic would-be-fascists. There were around 200 fascist protestors and 1000-1500 Leftist counter-protestors. Some regional militia showed up but DID NOT side with the fascist dweebs (these dweebs were really a pathetic lot, some looked like they should have been wearing plastic pen protectors in their pockets; there were a tiny few real soldiers among them; sad, sickening). What did the militias do? They came, they saw, they split-up some of the stupid fighting (the police were a joke and stood to the side), and then the militias just left. The "evil far-Right militiamen" left before the festivities were complete. The whole Charlottesville situation turned out to be just dementia writ large, so the real soldiers said, "Forget this stupid sh##, let's go home." You will NOT read this in the MSM.

    Were Antifa or BLM to go up against the real deal, they would be wiped out in less than an hour. I say an hour / maybe two, because there is the locating and the finishing-off of the vestiges of opposition. Militias could come in at 9am, get rid of the anti-civilization crews, and then go eat lunch.

    The primary reason to stay away from the violent peaceful protests is not that you might get hurt -- no, it is because the situation is so downright pathetic. A few cops blasting some birdshot into these sad excuses for humans and the rioters would soil themselves then run away. Some among them might stand and return fire, however it would only be spray'n'pray bursts of non-aimed fire. The rioter opening fire would be killed as soon as he was located. So the police actually should have some efficient rifles -- though shotguns would instantly disperse the rioters. The anti-American ACLU is now bringing lawsuits against fascist oppressor police departments for using tear gas against their peaceful looters and arsonists. Communist university professors, the MSM, and commie crews like the ACLU are the agents of America's international enemies and they should be treated as such.

    I would ask God to bless America, however this nation has been flipping God the bird for some decades now. I will not ask the Creator to show Mercy to a nation that requires His Justice. What I have asked is that God purge this country of its malignant megalopolises. Maybe God's Will need not visit this stinky planet, for its cities are going to great lengths to annihilate their own selves. Just a few months back, Beirut got itself a purging. King Neptune could make L.A., San Fransisco, and Seattle go away in just a matter of hours.

    Pop the popcorn, the cartoon is ending and the real show is beginning.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2020
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  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    in the long run "urban survival" is probably not possible, once the utilities are shut down and the food deliveries no long happen, survival in a city will be a case of dog eat dog.
    and before anyone mentions it, evacuation wont be possible either, not in a place like Britain anyway where most of the population lives and works in a city mostly at a sedentry or low paid employment. to most people in the UK the rural areas might just as well be "middle earth" or some other fantasy world for all they know about it which is next to nothing.
     
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  13. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Lonewolf,

    To add to the improbability of evacuations;

    Here, in the Mid-Atlantic coastal US, the elaborate plans for evacuations for hurricane emergencies don't really work .

    The coastal areas are so over-populated, there is no available "destination" to arrive at.

    There will be long lines of private vehicles heading westward. The public sector does not have enough tow trucks /"wreckers" to handle the numerous car breakdowns that are common enough even in routine times.

    Enroute motels and hotels are reserved for emergency responders, critical needs personnel and some officials. Presumptions are just that: presumptions. Gasoline stations are inadequate for refueling large numbers of vehicles. People get sick and injured as a matter of everyday living. No enroute medicial facilities will be available. Law enforcement is thin - even in sunny, nice times. Hurricane evacuations usually translates to weather conditions limiting or preventing flight operations.

    I hold the Washington, D.C. and Hampton Roads, Virginia evac plans. Most of the authors never participated in a motor convoy, let alone an evacuation.

    Private citizens must shelter in place unless the authorities require them to leave the declared tidal flood zones. With the pandemic going on, there could be sacrifices made.
     
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    if the government of the UK still exists post SHTF and thats a big IF, they wont want civilians blocking the road system and causing delays to emergency and military vehicles.
    there is actually a plan to ban all civilian traffic-motorised, bicycles, or walkers- from the major road systems, anyone who does leave will have to find an alternative route involving minor roads and trails which will take longer. probably evacuation itself will be banned unless ordered by the govt or military probably into so called "emergency centres"/internment camps.
     
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  15. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    And why should the food deliveries doesn't come. Does farmers there no longer need money? Evacuation only applicable when the disaster were seen coming (can be reliably predicted). When the disaster can't be predicted evacuation serve no purpose other than hindering relief efforts
     
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  16. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    May I say something about the reality of evacuations ?

    There are 2 categories of emergencies: 1. Notice Events (like a hurricane. Washington D.C. folks have about a week notice.) and 2. No Notice Events (like a large ship on the Chesapeake Bay ... could also be the Java or Flores Sea... having an accident and spraying a chemical gas onshore. People will immediately try to get away from the chemical spray.

    Of course your point is correct that this second type of evac interfers with the emergency response but I'm discussing "the reality". People do not care about others and the public sector authorities - LEOs, Responders, etc are few and overextended.

    How does the farmer's food arrive at the grocery store if the delivery truck has no fuel and the gasoline stations have no electricity to pump the gasoline. Nearly forgot; there are trees and wrecked cars on this same road. Some of the auto wrecks have people with injuries.
     
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  17. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Of course everyone will flee, that's just natural self preservation instinct. But such occurrence hardly count as organized evacuation either. However keep in mind how many people dead during the Fukushima accident evacuation while there is 0 (zero) casualty from anything related to radioactive.

    Why would the fuel truck stop coming? All those products need to go somewhere. And the product tankers also must continue with their schedule as per contract. Same thing with the refinery and the crude tanker. Having fuel around also mean the fuel station will always have power independent to the electric grid. And if there isn't enough fuel truck then send more fuel truck

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    How about vehicles wreck and no road?

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    or how about PT boat blocking the road

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    with dead peoples by the road side

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    All those are obstacles and very shocking in the first week, but that doesn't mean every commerce sudden;y stop either within that shocking first week. Because everybody need to make money and to do so they need to work or doing commerce. Unless of course everybody is living in gov't welfare, now that's is different case entirely because there won't be any incentive to move on with self recovery.
     
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  18. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    Varuna, your obviously a NON BELIEVER in the big one, when everything stops, imports will stop because the countries that export this stuff will probably need it for themselves when everything goes nuts.
    farming here will come to a halt, even if the farmers have fuel-which is finite when its gone its gone. but "mono cropping" is rife here and that needs loads of imported pesticides, herbisides and fertiliser, all these are imported into the UK, the imports stop and the land becomes infertile without these chemicals.
    maybe in Indonesia people will flee, they've probably got more sense over there, but I can tell you the British wont flee, we dont have the history of evacuations here, when anything bad happens we are told to go indoors and shut all the windows and sit tight.
     
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  19. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    In the mid-Atlantic coastal area, everyone DOES NOT flee. This is one of our problems. People are allowed to live alone even when they are elderly and on 24/7 medical care, eg oxygen users requiring refilling cannisters of O2.

    We know about organized evacuations (very expensive and with its own independent dangers). We are well read on Fukushima. Some of our people were there helping in their recovery. I've got the 2 main reports here and use it to teach some evacuation and emergency sheltering classes.

    US contracts have force majeure clauses and they are exercised. It's the same with the refineries and the crude tankers.

    Fuel supplies do not mean a fuel station will have independent power (referring to private-sector only-critical infrastructure designated fuell stations are non-approachable by the public). People are needed to include a detachment of LEOs.

    This area is marsh. Leaving the narrow country roads has one entering a tidal flood plain. Even big wheel National Guard vehicles cannot be depended on.

    PT boats and related USN, USCG vessels are recovered almost immediately, conditions permitting. The units are obviously not part of the private sector. The salvage industry here is one of the world's best, if not the world's best. What keeps us busy is checking fuel spills and any loose HAZMAT.

    MANY - well over 50% - receive a government check(s) of some kind.

    Of course even with the Emerates sovereign wealth fund, where could evacuees evacuate to ? The mid-Atlantic coastal areas are overbuilt and over populated. The highways are saturated even in nice times.

    Please don't think all of this is bleakness. The military and critical infrastructure personnel are well prepared with redundancy levels. More personnel will be moved in to alleviate shortages. The USNS hospital ship SOUTHERN COMFORT deployed to NYC was really a sotto voce mobilization/evacuation test.
     
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  20. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    How big is your big? Does 250 thousand casualty & displace nearly 2 million across at least 10 countries big enough for you? I was boot on the ground on that one.

    That's my points. Survival chance will depend mostly in LOCAL factors. You can't put blanket viability assessment on it. Local cultures always came into play because its how people will react will depend mostly upon it. In a society where people need to "earn" their foods rather than given by the welfare state people took responsibility of themself each according to their measure rather than waiting for the gov't to provide them with any. And whether they live in farming area or mega city dweller is non issue.

    On the side note, I just check UK fertilizer consumption using World Bank data. I'm surprised as one of the world largest consumption of fertilizer (Kg per hectare of arable land) you guys importing all those rather than producing it domestically? And here I'm in a country that must feed 270 million people and yet our fertilizer consumption is pretty low. Doesn't even need to import any foods either other than for price control measures (over supplying the market)
     
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  21. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    in the UK we have too much of a welfare culture, modern people dont know how to grow their own food apart from a few allotment societies they buy all their food in the supermarkets and panic when the shelves are even slightly low never mind empty, we have already seen it here.
    I have talked about evacuation on this forum and other forums too, it just wont happen here, period.
    as for importing fertiliser etc I dont know why its not made here, its probably easier and cheaper to bring it in from somewhere else, a practice that will come to bite them on the backside once SHTF happens.
     
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  22. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    And why should someone like me even need to learn growing foods? Around here if I need to grow anything, all I need to do is throw the seed to the general direction where I want to plant to grow. And calling in the blessing of the goddess. In time (with the goddess blessing) it will grow as expected (most of the time). Love to give pictorial of what had been grow that way from both the lawn & backyard, but its night time here already
     
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  23. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    thats what most people think, they dont have a clue,only it dosent work like that and learning to grow food AFTER SHTF is not the time to start. they wont even have the right seed.
     
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