Trade Stock

Discussion in 'Essential Items' started by TexDanm, Dec 29, 2019.

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  1. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I know that some of you don't think that trade or barter is a good idea because you don't want to deal with strangers. I feel that it is impossible to have everything and if you figure out later that you need something there is no assurance that money will have any value. Even precious metals may not have the kind of worth that you will need.

    Fire is the one thing that you just can’t overstate the importance of. I have just about every kind and type of fire-making tool that there is but I am still always on the lookout for things to add to the collection. If the world as we know it ends can you imagine what the value of a few strike-anywhere matches might be a year or two after the fall?

    I ordered some ½” diameter plastic straws last year and any time that I am bored I will go to my shop and make fire kits. That is three or four matches, a strip of sandpaper and a little jute twine packed into a piece of straw with the ends melted closed.

    I also regularly buy ferrocerium rods and then make them into little kits. Yesterday I picked up some fatwood lighter pine and am going to make small handles for the ferro rods with it. I then make a small jute bundle and tie the rod, a striker/knife blade, and a jute bundle together with a piece of 95 paracord. Fatwood along with the jute makes for a super easy fire start.

    I also like to make char cloth any time that I have a pair of worn-out jeans. I cut them into little rectangles the size of an Altoids box and then cook them in little batches of about 10. When they are done and cool, I like to seal them up with a vacuum sealer. I then package them with flint and steel in one of the metal Altoids boxes.

    I like to make fires with all sorts of different things so that I know what works best and fastest. Once I find the right combination of things I will make a bunch of them. In the advent of a disaster, I will use these along with a lot of other things as trade stock.

    I will cover some of the over trade things later in another post.
     
  2. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    trade/barter will not be safe post SHTF for a long time down the line, and i'm talking years not months.
    very few people will have any surplus to trade with, you could end up as a survivor with trade goods and no one to trade with.
    best to accumulate all those things you will need post collapse and not waste the space buying trade goods instead.,
     
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  3. Brownbear

    Brownbear Expert Member
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    I'm with Lonewolf on this one, I think you may end up with excess stock. Initially trade would be quite risky as you are likely to be robbed. For examples of this look at history (and the bible - that is full of stories of good people being robbed). This would undermine your investment in time and labour. Later on I do wonder of there would be so many folks to trade with, maybe lots of abandoned properties or dead folks with plenty of stuff to use? But, not so many to trade with.
     
  4. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    tis better to make a list of all the things one will need post collapse and buy them now, slowly and over time, than expect someone else to have them and to be able to trade with them, or to just fall over these items in some abandoned house in a world gone mad.
    self reliance is about relying on oneself not expecting others to have what we need, whether that is food, tools or skills.
     
  5. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    You're right that everything needed will not be present at one's shack or enroute campground.

    Dealing with others, especially strangers, introduces both diseases and violence.

    As much as fire-starting material is required, my belief is that pharmaceuticals will be at the top of the list. Knowing how to read and understand the vial's info and "onion sheet" if the vial is in a box with sheet, is of utmost importance.

    I'm in the Lonewolf / Brownbear camp on this.
     
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  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Any future street/liquid currency items will have scrap silver coins and ammunition at the top of the list.

    Food items are money. Canned items will be especially valuable. But this isn't so liquid. The word "bulky" comes to mind. Too, I'm keeping/consuming my food; it's not leaving my turf.

    Hermit vs. small community survival lifestyle items to consider:

    Do you have eyes in the back of your head? Are you a physician?. Can you by yourself establish a perimeter? Me, I will make friends. Or should I say, buy friends. The men of my family worked black market jobs. Again, let me quote from the Old Geezer version of the Holy Street-Bible, "And a wise man shalt purchase friends, saying unto them, 'Worriest thou not, for I doth havest thine back.'"

    And yes, life is a poker game. Know who holds the cards. Know where the man across from you parks his snub-nose revolver. Have an armed sober friend near where you've parked your car for the evening's events.

    If one wishes privacy, never start a fire that gives off smoke ... else you most assuredly will draw "friends". Alligators have big smiles.
     
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  7. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Throughout history, it is apparent that groups of people tend to survive and prosper better in small groups that as isolated individuals. One of and maybe the biggest reason this is true is that even if you try one person just can't have all the skills and talents that are needed to thrive. People gather and trade is just a part of the ties that bind the people together. There are also just so many things that one person alone can't really do. Building any structure much above a hut is just not a one-man job.

    Different places and different people will grow different crops. It is easier to grow in large amounts and trade with others than each person trying to grow all the many different things that they will want. Also a lot of things, like meat, have a limited shelf life. When you butcher a calf you might want to trade some of the meat for other things rather than lose some of it to spoilage.

    Since my plan is involved with community building I want as much in the way of trade stock as possible. I have a lot of silver in coins including 125 silver dollars, a little over a thousand dollars in just coins, hundreds of thousands of fish hooks, line , weights and lures, 15,000+ 22lr rounds, 15,000 books, over a hundred pocket knives, at least 50 fixed blade knives, Then I have a large skill set that would have value.

    In the early period, say the first two years or so I would be rather reclusive. There are going to be millions that are not going to be able to adapt to a new world and they are going to be dangerous. For that period I have lots of guns and a lot of perfectly legal materials that when combined can be used to make my area a hardened sight.

    Once things settle down there are going to be a lot fewer people and lots of empty houses. At that point, there will be a lot advantages to making connections with the people in your vicinity. As people gather trade will be one of the things that will draw them together.
     
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  8. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    I have skills to trade. I have some beans, rice and other food that I have planned to trade to a couple young men that I know, that are avid hunters, for meat. I recently picked up a pack of 50 Bic lighters and after filling up the vehicles and emergency kits I have most of those. I have the manufacturing capacity to build most common calibers of ammo. Over the years I have acquired brass and bullets for everything I shoot and several other common rounds. One bullet I picked up was specifically for my hunter friends favourite rifles.
     
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  9. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Good thought that I missed. I have three presses and dies or lee loaders for many common calibers. I managed to get several thousand 30 caliber bullets and a bunch of powder from a sort of estate sale. I also have a thousand or so 357 bullets and 9mm bullets. I also can load 20 gauge shells and 12 gauge shells.

    Has anyone here had any experience with the loaders for the 22lr that I have seen advertised recently?

    I have made gun powder in the past and could easily do it again. As long as you understand the process and are careful it is neither hard to do nor all that dangerous as long as you don't make too much at a time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
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  10. CountryGuy

    CountryGuy Master Survivalist
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    TxD... I like the small fire kit thing, especially the ferro kit but that might be more for family kits. The one thing I'll say is that I think for most people, your match kits or sub in the cheap lighters like Caribou mentions might be most practical and have more value to Joe Blow. Having taught dozens and dozens of kids, young adults and adults to start fires over the years most people will have not a clue what to do or how to get a fire started with ferrocium or flint and steel. I'd venture most wouldn't have a clue what to do with the Jute or understand the need for a birds nest. And forget the uninitiated ever figuring out fire by friction.

    As some have mentioned what are the others going to have of value to trade? Likely many will still be in the current mindset of what "value" is. So they'll want to offer cash - no thanks, precious metals - maybe? watches - maybe? I mean some of those things do have potential of long term wealth. Though I don't plan to do much swapping with strangers till a ways down the road. And if I don't know them, no way am I trading ammo.

    Along the lines of barter items that are small, portable and cheap I'd say salt and sugar, so lots of little ziplock bag and say an 1/8 or 1/4 cup in a baggie. Things like ibuprofen/ acetaminophen - you can buy big bottles for pretty cheap and then TxD's straw package might work great to put in say 4 of each and seal them up. A lot of people who are not used to walking or doing physical activity are going to be getting reacquainted or maybe even acquainted with the associated aches and pains and will be hurting, they're gonna have headaches or have ill kids and something like that would have a load of value. I mean even empty water bottles or full water bottles (new or refilled). Higher "value" trade items might be things like Sawyer mini-filters, iodine water treatment tabs; cheap dollar store AAA & AA batteries, small cheap mini LED lights, knives, etc. But again, is there anything you're going to need from most? Or will it be more of a haggle and a trade that has more to do with charity/ goodwill?

    My thinking is that many will need for just the basics. so fire, water, medicine - I agree food is gonna be tough but maybe even something like packets of instant/ microwave rolled oats. I know we buy a huge variety box with like 48 flavors. Packet with bullion cubes, We buy those bulk at some of the local country stores. Ramen noodles?

    I'm more in thinking with TxD on the community thing. I mean neighbors are neighbors. You have to sleep sometime and the more sets of eyes the better. Or maybe your tired of eating the beef you slaughtered and your thinking some of that hog neighbor Joe has been slaughtering and eating would be a nice change to the menu. Well might just be that Joe is a bit tired of pork loin and has a hankering for a nice pot roast.
     
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  11. Caribou

    Caribou Master Survivalist
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    I was looking at the .22 reloading tool a few years back. It is a slow process. You need to have a large supply of strike anywhere matches. You can pick up a lot of .22 ammo for the cost of reloading a handful. I think it would work and I've spoken to a couple of people that have done it. They said to not bother.
     
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  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    this lone wolf versus group thing has probably been discussed for the last 40 years or more.
    it depends on what kind of lifestyle one thinks they require, those that are having something very close to what they had pre collapse with all the gadgets, solar and wind, and trying to hold onto large tracts of land will not be able to function without a large labour force to do the work, where someone living closer to the earth and having a simpler lifestyle will require less people, remember that the more people you have around you the more land is needed to feed those number of people, the more land you have the more people are required to work it, its almost self perpetuating, plus more people make more noise, make more tracks, and more waste, the less people make less of these, plus it is easier to hide a few people but harder to hide a large group.
    self reliance obviously means different things to different people.
     
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  13. Brownbear

    Brownbear Expert Member
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    This is a good point, but, when we look at history we can only look at recorded history (or archeological interpretation - which can only be assessed from our current viewing perspective). The type of society we may well end up with, post SHTF, could be more aligned with a pre-history society. We have no real depth of understanding as to how that society worked. It is entirely possible that there were successful lone individuals or very small isolated groups. The skillsets required would have been smaller (technologically) and it may have been possible for one individual to have sufficient knowledge to go it alone.

    We just don't know :)
     
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    from what I have seen on archaeology programmes pre history groups were more like family "units", even "first nations" in America and Australia were more like extended family groups.
    of course when the first modern humans came out of the Rift Valley in Africa and started to populate further afield there weren't that many of them and I think this is where some people may be incorrect about large groups, in a society where most people can only survive by the use of modern systems post collapse the population will be much smaller because most people wont survive the fall of society/civilisation.
    expecting large numbers of people to survive to assist you in your own survival is at the very least not logical.
    pre industrialisation in Britain the population was around 6 million not the 65 million we have today and most people only went as far as the nearest market town, we weren't exactly falling over each other back then(mid 18th century).
     
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  15. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Lonewolf,

    Lone wolf versus groups surely must be measured in decades, well prior to the Cold War. We can study the war relocations and who/what fared the best - presuming measuring this can be accomplished.

    Adding to "lifestyle" ... and completely agree with your above points ... has the subcategory involving exceptions eg routine medicine use, moving a boat from A to B for an emergency evac, ...

    Other post; In one of my pulp archaeology magazines, there are now some views that the Rift Valley was not the first site of the early human species. The view is that human species life started on the coast between Simontown and Durban, RSF, because this shoreline had both warm and cold currents bringing different types of shellfish for dining. This allowed for brain development (not in Pretoria !) and our human species.
     
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  16. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    well that last bit makes sense, everyone knows there is a lot of food around the shore line.
    there are a lot of reports of huge stacks of sea shells near the sea shore known as "mizzens" I think.
    in Britain during pre history some form of boat was used extensively as the land was covered in large forests and had many wild animals and was not safe to travel.
    personally I prefer the woods to the sea.
     
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  17. Brownbear

    Brownbear Expert Member
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    I've read that article, it was in one of the UK science journals that was floating around not too long ago. There is also a theory that Ethiopia may have been the original source. Of course it is possible that humans developed separately at a similar time and came together.
     
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  18. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Brownbear,

    True. I've also since read of an independent origin of human beings - somewhere in the Russian landmass. The fossils were labeled "Davidian" or something similar.

    I do have doubts about the Rift Valley as the Africa origin. Just personal doubts; can't prove anything.
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    depends on what one means by "human" I guess.
    modern humans came right at the end of evolution , there were several types of human the Neanderthals being in Europe long before modern humans arrived. all the rest died out leaving our ancestors as the only humans left.
     
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  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I love to pick up a bottle of aspirin for a dollar any time that I go to a dollar store. Actually the dollar stores have a lot to offer to a prepper. I got a bunch of tube tents from a dollar store one time. In the line of food, I keep a lot of those little canned hams. Spam is another high calorie canned food as are sardines in oil. Vegetables are easy and all around us if you know what is eatable but meat with high-fat content is not natural in the wild. Even the feral hogs here are pretty lean unless you trap them and then feed them up for a while. That said, my best friend probably has some of the fattest ferrel hogs there are because they raid his deer feeder of corn for months leading up to deer season. In tought time I'm eating tht corn and NOT feeding it to the wild critters
     
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  21. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    This topic has sort of split into two topics... I like that, it means that people are thinking about things.

    The thing about going it alone in a post-apocalyptic is simply that you can do well right up until a group finds you and takes everything away from you. The idea of going Rambo and standing off a small army is just FICTION. Going solo will require you to spend a lot of time hiding and then sometimes having to abandon your place. Also, you will need to keep your footprint on your area very small and as unnotable as possible. You can do it now because the rule of law is in effect and you don't have roving groups of thugs and thieves that can move into an area, do pretty much as they wish and then move on if the local people organize and offer a threat. This is going to be the norm after a collapse. Those that made no preparations. and have no real survival skills are going to be a serious problem.

    In the USA in the early years if the new people went too far ahead of the growing nation they were killed by the native Americans that they were displacing. Safety only happened when the military move in, built a fort and forced peace in that area. Without that going out alone was tough unless you made contact and were accepted by the local tribe. This is what we will be dealing with for a while after the fall. If you decide to be alone you need to be as invisible as possible and ready to run at all times.

    The thing that caused the creation of "settlements" was usually started around a trading post. People came there to trade and others settled in the area for security. Other traders would come and this was the seed that ended up a town and in some cases a full-blown city. The city of 120,00o people where I was raised was started by a French trading post there. I have no desire to live hidden or in a limited fashion. I actually like some people around me, not right in my pocket but close enough to be neighborly with. I like social activities.

    Tonight I will be with my friends to bring in the New Year. They are my family. We gathered for Thanksgiving and Christmas too. There will be 15 to 20 people there tonight. I will have this after the fall. Once things settle I will draw people together.

    You have to understand that maybe what I am talking about is not understood. In Texas, a lot of small communities of about 500 people will be together in a HUGE area. We measure our places in acres and neighbors can be several hundred yards away to almost a mile. I'm not talking about suburbia, I'm talking a very large rural community where each person has gardens, farms, and livestock.
     
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  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  23. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    We honestly don't have much trouble out of the Mexicans. If they do come across in Texas they immediately haul ass for places like California so they can get on the dole. The ones that stay in Texas are good folks that came here to work and they are great workers. We need workers. We happily send the parasites to California. In the liberal hell holes, they can do whatever they want without having to worry about someone blowing their head off. If they kill someone in Texas we will execute them!!! If they kill someone in California they get free food and a good life without having to worry about paying for their crimes with their life. If they do much else other than murder they just toss them across the border and they are back before the bus that hauled them to the border gets home.
     
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  24. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    there are a lot of differences between USA and UK and i'm not just talking spelling.
    Americans at least have a history of pioneers and prospectors, UK does not.
    Americans at some point in time have to evacuate because of weather patterns, Brits do not have a history of evacuating, even in WW2 .
    85% of UK population now lives in cities and have urban attitudes, they do not know where their food comes from and many are afraid of the countryside, its an unknown thing.
    that's why I say in Britain at least the "golden horde" is fiction.
    once the food deliveries cease most peoples time is limited, limited in what they can do and where they can do it, there will be looting and rioting in the cities but it will be short lived, as will the occupants.
    the 2 things that will kill most people is lack of clean drinking water and disease, once the power goes off and the tap/faucet runs dry most people are stuffed.
     
  25. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Lonewolf,

    Above post needed here for a refocus.

    Speaking of most Brits not knowing where their food comes from, this is a specific UK - US similarity:

    "The modern barbarian ... looks at the highly complex modern society and takes it to be a natural object. People think that fruit appears in the grocery store the same way it grows on trees. They don't perceive the highly complex social network that makes it possible. Nor do they appreciate that network's fragility."

    Philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset writing about the 1930s era Spanish mindset.
     
  26. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    there is a long timescale from picking and packing the food to getting it in the supermarket shelves, even eggs can be 6 weeks old before they appear on the store shelves- someone in the trade told me that.
    most people don't know that.
     
  27. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Pragmatist, the path that is required to get food, grown harvested, processed and shipped to the shelves in such a way that most isn't lost is massively complex. this system in the US is sort of like a grown living thing. The lack of this system is why Russia has such a problem with empty shelves in their stores. A friend of mine actually went to Russia after the wall came down as part of an American effort to help Russia "grow" this system. Basically what they ran into was that it really is a lot like a living thing. Like an oak tree, you start with a seed and end up with a big tree...in 40 or fifty years. You can't speed this up much and you for sure can't skip over any part of the growth. There is no quick fix for them.

    The next part of their problem at first was that for a long time when it was time to harvest the Government just told a bunch of people to stop what they were doing and to go and do it. They had no choice they were not free people. With the fall of communism and people suddenly being free a lot of their crops just rotted in the fields. They are still struggling with parts of the system.

    Take wheat that is made into bread for an example. If everybody plants at the same time then they will need to harvest at the same time. The combines that are used to harvest the wheat are massively expensive so there are a limited number of them available. this ends up meaning that part of the crops will be lost or damaged by not being harvested on time. After the grain is harvested it has to be processed in several ways and once again there is a backlog that causes another loss. Basically at each step, their losses are massively more than what we have. It is all about timing and flows and that is just something that has to be developed over time as the resources are developed.

    It will be a lot like that a few years after the fall. The thing is that we will have a much smaller population to deal with and to work with. The survivors that work together will thrive and build a new nation while the rest will...survive. America has a history of this so it won't be too hard. The problem that the people in a lot of Europe will have is that they never have been as totally free.

    There have not been any frontiers in Europe for centuries. The adventurous had to leave to get away from the controls of civilization. Those that stayed were the more cultured and civilized. The same is true in the US and that is why there is such a difference between the people in the earliest states and the later established states.

    When you leave civilization behind you are forced to be SELF-dependent. If you stay there you LIKE that. When a civilized urban person in the Northeast hears someone breaking into their house they hide in the closet and dial 911. When a Kentucky hillbilly or a redneck Texan hears someone breaking in they grab their gun and go hunting the intruder. This is why there is such a difference between North South, East West and the rural versus urban.
     
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  28. Brownbear

    Brownbear Expert Member
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    One of the strangest things I recently discovered about the egg industry is that some egg farmers drown male chicks and only keep female ones. I have been trying to find out why males ones are not raised into chickens for food. To me it seems an obvious and logical step. I guess money must be behind it, but there is too little information to form an informed viewpoint.
     
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  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I guess anyone in the chicken business specialises, they either are in the egg business or they are in the chicken business, they don't usually do both, its either or.
     
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  30. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning TexDanm,

    Your friend who worked in the post Soviet Russia surely had a great experience.

    Good info above.

    Aren't you, in effect, also describing what you wrote a few months ago on the set-up of an oil refinery. It's a long drawn-out process with yields that tremendously exceed the set-up efforts.
     
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  31. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    One of the reasons for American success is the way we grew into our economy. I know the oil industry because I was raised in it with refineries and oil wells all over the place. Everyone including me worked in different parts of the industry. From the building of oil rigs through the final refinement and delivery for sale, it is an incredibly choreographed complex dance. There were a few times when it got out of step with huge financial results. When a tanker brings in oil it needs to OFFLOAD that cargo immediately. When there is a hold up those ships end up sitting there at anchor for months and that is like burning money.

    Once refined the product has to be shipped out because the refineries have to use those units that spent months making gasoline need to start making home heating fuel. The tanks have to be empty and ready for this changeover. You can't really build this all at the same time. It is a lot like juggling. It is simple in theory. you just throw the balls high enough that you have time to catch and toss before the next ball comes down. like juggling though if you watch a juggler doing it, it looks so simple, but when you pick up the balls and try they go everywhere. THAT is the problem that the Russians have with their food industry.

    After a fall there is always a struggle to get a system back up and running because of the impatience.
     
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  32. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    LOL, Ok about the chickens and the egg factories... Places that sell eggs on a major scale don't hatch the eggs for their chickens. They buy them from another company that sells hens. That company actually buys their eggs from another company that sells presorted eggs that are guaranteed a high percentage of hens. These eggs are hatched in incubators and the chicks are then fed and cared for for 6 weeks. At 6 weeks the little roosters start growing their combs and are easy to spot. At that point, the little roosters are disposed of. Each stage of this is like a factory assembly line in its single-minded aim and specific design. The roosters are useless. They are aggressive and fight and even if you are keeping chickens you only need one rooster for a bunch of hens. The egg factories don't need roosters for much. Unfertilized eggs keep better than fertilized eggs. The industry is so mechanized now that at factory levels each stage has no place for chickens at another stage.

    There used to be a hen farm near the family farm. A couple le of times we went and sorted their chickens for the roosters and raised 75 to 100 up to about 12 to 15 weeks then butchered them. They are a pill to keep past that unless you beak them to keep them from pecking each other to death. We just butchered them before that got out of hand. they were small but made great friars. I will tell you this...if you have to deal with chickens at this sort of level you probably don't eat as many chickens as you did before you worked in this industry.

    AND so that his post has a relevance to the original topic Keeping chickens offers you a lot of food and the eggs are like cash in a barter society. Fresh eggs don't need refrigeration for a long time. Eggs and honey from bee hives will make you a well to do person in an all barter economy.

    I have had experience with both chickens and bees. That is why I prefer DUCKS! Bees are great an if things go bad I will probably gather in a couple of hives. I guess if we were hungry enough I would do chickens again but might go with guinea fowls instead. At least if you have guineas you never have to worry about someone sneaking up on you! Guineas roost in the trees and foxes can't get to them so you don't have to protect them as much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  33. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Expert Member
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    I think ammunition would be a great currency. You can hunt with it and defend yourself.

    But, I think post apocalypse people will just kill you over a box of band-aids rather than barter with you.
     
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  34. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    It is going to be a lot like that at first but people that act like that are going to get in a lot of fights and with no hospitals or doctors they just won't last long. my barter is for the period after the total chaos. I'm figuring at least a couple of years but then people will have been thinned out and weeded out and trade will resume. It seems to be an almost instinctive urge in humanity and has arisen on every continent. Without cops to protect them thugs won't last long at all. When people have plenty of room and even a small cut can kill you in a gruesome fashion people tend to be polite and work hard to avoid problems. TV makes it seem like people in the old west were fighting all the time but in reality that wasn't the case. let's face it, genuine reality would make for mighty dull TV shows.
     
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  35. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Expert Member
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    That would be true.

    Pity for the people living in a big city post SHTF. I can't even imagine that mess.
     
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  36. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The death rate in major urban areas is going to be awful. The food and water will be gone in no time and then the panic will make the roads impassable as everybody tries to leave at the same time. The fires will burn the inner cities to the ground and the flood of people is going to make the suburbs a disaster zone. During this period you just want to not be seen. trade is impossible and dangerous as hell. I think that it will take at least a couple of years before people become sane and thinned out enough for trade and rebuilding will be possible.
     
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  37. Justin Baker

    Justin Baker Well-Known Member
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    I think if you have trusted people, and you start bartering with them now, a network of sorts can be formed. Like the mushrooms underground in a lot of areas link up and share the resources, but all we see are the dozen or so shroom heads that pop up through the soil! Yeah, we may have to deal with strangers when the time comes, but on our own terms, and no where near our base! Also, if we start the bartering process now with people that are at least somewhat like-minded, we can eventually get a much better deal down the road! By the way, @TexDanm I just posted a link to a fire-starter today! - https://mysurvivalforum.com/threads/free-waterproof-fire-starter.8150/
     
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  38. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    a couple of years? more like several decades.
     
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  39. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    what if these people you barter with now don't survive the collapse?
    deal with strangers? that is not safe and wont be for a long time. strangers=danger.
    self reliance and self sufficiency are the only options in a post collapse world.
    expecting others to have what we are lacking is not exactly what prepping is about.
     
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  40. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning all,

    If, for example, a person does not routinely bath and practice the other routine hygiene practices - and - is not currently (ie after SHTF) immunized against the major recurring illnesses eg influenza, infections transfer to other humans in close proximity. Personnel at airport medical clinics are already familiar with this.

    If animals are around the infections will be more numerous.

    After the US Civil War, the defeated states had a block of recovery from 1870 to 1940 (less the rural South with a limited recovery after WWII). After WWII, China spent about 2 decades to eliminate starvation.

    Contact with persons in a major stress event (such as loss of family member, a serious injury) coupled to SHTF involves lethal dangers. Think this scenario out. Practice sound discretion and max prudence.
     
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  41. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    disease will be rife after TSHTF once the power and water mains go down, just what are those people that shower every day-sometimes several times a day-going to do then? hygiene is going to go out the window for most.
     
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  42. Justin Baker

    Justin Baker Well-Known Member
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    I agree, to some extent. Again, as I stated, it would be on my terms. If reconnaissance shows no dice, then no dice! At no point would "walk-ups" be okay. If I have to trade with someone else for something I do not have then I didn't need it to begin with. Self-sufficiency is the key.
     
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  43. Justin Baker

    Justin Baker Well-Known Member
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    Anyways, urban areas would be so far from my location... lol... so far the only issue would be keeping the "flood" away from my stash (es) and my safe zones. I would naturally avoid any urban area as if they were the plague, and not just the source of it.
     
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  44. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the big cities are a long way from my location and just finding this place if one isn't local would be a feat in itself, as most non locals have never even heard of this place.
    urban areas should be avoided post collapse as no good will come from going there and a lot of harm, disease being just one problem.
     
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  45. Duncan

    Duncan Master Survivalist
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    Most layers, like Leghorns, Rhode Island Reds, Australorps, etc. are bred to either lay large white eggs (Leghorns) or more eggs per year (Australorps). Typically, they take a long time (4-6 months) to reach maturity and start laying, and they do not have much meat.

    Broilers (Cornish Cross are probably the most common) are a completely different animals. They reach maturity (butchering) at 8 WEEKS (nine at the latest) from the egg. They can't free range, and usually have to be fed 12 hours on, 12 hours off, or they will eat themselves to death. Even with that approach, if they're not butchered by 9 weeks, they begin to have health problems because their little chick legs can't support their massive bodies and they can't stand up.

    There are a lot of chickens that are used in homestead farms which are combination birds: pretty good egg production, pretty good meat, but the big producers (eggs or meat) don't bother; it's more cost-effective to pick a specialized chicken and go with it. Dawn and I have several breeds, but the ones we have most are Ameraucanas and Buff Orpingtons, which are probably the best all-around chicken, especially in a free-hold post-SHTF situation.
     
  46. Brownbear

    Brownbear Expert Member
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    That's very interesting Duncan - thank you :)
     
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  47. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Are they all going to be within walking distance?

    Most people won't have any means of transportation after a relatively short time.

    What will you be getting in return for your "trade stock"?
     
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  48. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    the survival rate will be key, its not likely to be very high especially in western countries, most people live a modern lifestyle, are not preppers, and have no emergency supplies of any kind, they just go to the stores when they want something, the shelves will be empty post collapse.
    just expecting someone to be out there to trade with is a failure in survival terms and expecting them to have something to trade is another fail, if these people even survive which is not logical they will only have what they stand up in.
     
  49. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Justin,

    The city's exploded sewer will transfer the urban area to your locale in days or a couple of weeks (Don't know where you're at).

    The mosquitoes, rabid dogs and rabid bats arrive prior to the straggling humans wandering in your direction. If dead animals and humans are not buried, anticipate being a victim of an epidemic. Safe zones do not exist. Infected mosquitoes and rabid bats make all areas their domain.

    Many Americans are not up to date on their personal immunization nor even in good health.

    Trading with someone is really about a transfer of an infectious disease, statistically speaking. Even without the statistics, it will still cause a serious infection. Currently, in Virginia, we've got this secondary level of infections going on because of the flu. Some here did not got the no cost vaccination.
     
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  50. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    Someone that needs trade items tells me straight off there is something wrong with their survival capability . However some people including some of our members are simply sitting in a situation that would be difficult to survive under . As flawed as it may be trade may be their best hope . For example maybe a close neighbor has lots of livestock and there is a survival weakness that could be exploited . Better to try to barter than getting hung for stealing livestock . To me a better solution for someone sitting in a non - survival location is to try to at least purchase a spot of land that is survivable on , when S.H.T.F. ' Trying to run to public land would be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire as that is also what the rest of the horde would do . That being said if I was planning to try to trade " which I am not " I would suggest toilet paper for quick term trade as most people would be out within two weeks . For long term trade disposable cigereit lighters . As soon as that lighter runs out , they will be wanting another one .
     
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