Universal Family Arms.

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by GS AutoTech, Aug 9, 2017.

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  1. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I've put some intense thought into what arms will suit for all members of the family. 4 kids, mom & dad. All my kids are reasonably proficient with firearms. Safely & operation being paramount. My wife is often a better snap shot than I am. Very proud of her. ;)
    After crunching all the different factors, I feel 5.56 & 9mm are the best universal fit for the whole family. This includes skill levels, ease of use & ability to handle, mag compatibility, cost of arms & ammo, parts compatibility, etc. Etc.
    We also sport various .22LR & 12ga.
    I have a love for arms & would have a wide & varied sets of arms in a multitude of calibers. But I'm focusing on that one set of arms that we all can use.
    Any thoughts? I'm always receptive to critical thinking.
    Thanks:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  2. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    We too have modern firearms for defence, but use flintlock muzzle-loading arms for hunting. Modern firearms are good for defence providing you have plenty of ammo. However, carrying all that ammo should you have to leave your home can be a problem. You must make sure that the weight & bulk of modern ammo does not compromise other essential items in your packs. IF we had to leave our forest home, as a family we could afford to carry our modern guns & SOME of the ammo just for defence, but we would also be taking our muzzle-loading arms & bows.
    If I had to go bush on my own, I would choose my flintlock over a modern gun.
    Keith.
     
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  3. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I like the versatility of the flintlock. & I fully understand the flexibility offered by it. My wife & I would have no issues with it's operation. Although the wife & I are but 1/3 of the family/group equation. So I am in need of the least common denominator. I feel the kids could perform admirably with the skills they posses at this time, the added stress of performance in that arena might be overload. The long term sustainable points of the flintlock are obvious and undeniable. Skills the kids may obtain in years to come.
    With N.Korea making serious threats today as they are, I need to think what am I doing now. ;)
     
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  4. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    ALSO, the wooded land surrounding our property is maybe a thousand acres. Buried cashes thru out that forest would be ideal if we had to flee from our home. If a long distance evacuation were needed, we would just have to chalk up those stashed as a loss. Part of the game so to speak.
     
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  5. LilSoldierGirl

    LilSoldierGirl Well-Known Member
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    My take on modern firearms and carrying enough ammo is this:

    Any reasonably fit person can carry enough centrefire ammo to last several years hunting or several minutes of combat.

    After several minutes of combat either you are dead or your opponent is. Which means either you don't need ammo anymore or you can take your dead opponent's ammo.
     
  6. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    No offence intended, but I think your way of thinking is flawed & by no means a certainty.
    Keith.
     
  7. LilSoldierGirl

    LilSoldierGirl Well-Known Member
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    No offence taken.

    My opinion is based on my military training. Combat in urban areas or in thick vegetation is very close and very violent and usually doesn't last long.
     
  8. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    SoldierGirl & Keith, I don't think either idea is flawed. Just completely dependant on the situation. I agree with Keith that there is No certainty to be expected about how a scenario will play out. I also agree that very careful conservation of ammo could make it last for a good bit of time.
    If your under assault you will of course expend more ammo, even if your goal is escape & evade.
    Point being, prepare for the worst as best you can & use your skills and tactics to survive in the best way possible.
     
  9. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    This is a topic that is hard to nail down because survival is an ART form and where art is concerned people vary so much. It makes me think of that old tale about blind people describing what an elephant looks like based on them touching and feeling one part of the animal.

    If I am in my home and several people are attacking and I want to protect my loved ones I do NOT want to be limited to a flintlock rifle. Conversely over the long haul I CAN make gunpowder from component parts that I can get almost anywhere and knap my own flint where a modern gun is useless when the last primer is gone and you can't make your own in a primitive situation.

    Our LilSoldierGirl is indeed right. In the sort of thing that a survivalist is likely to get involved in the "action" is going to be fast and short lived. This is not a war and the people involved are not soldiers with that type of objectives. It will be more like police actions and after a few shots either someone is down or someone has run away. Police in the past usually fire 4 or 5 rounds per gunfight. That has gone up to 6 or 7 probably due to the advent of high capacity semiautomatic handguns. When you only have 6 shots you probably don't shoot as many times I imagine.

    OK, now to the original question and remember that survival is an art so we all see things differently. As far as the number of available weapons and availability of ammo and probability of getting more ammo off downed adversaries You will be best served with the 5.56, 9mm and 12 gauge.

    Unfrotunatly the choice of the 5.56 and the 9mm is by far not the best choices for defensive use. Both, especially with military FMJ/ball ammo are extremely poor stoppers. they are designed to create casualties rather than dead bodies. That is what wins wars fastest or so is the theory.

    When someone is trying to harm me or my loved ones I want that activity to STOP as fast as possible. That means that I want to shoot you with something that has more stopping power. While 7.62/.30 caliber and either .45 or 357 mag ammo weighs more , they both also have three times the stopping power over the 5.56 and 9mm.

    A formula for stopping power is bullet diameter times bullet weight times bullet speed divided by 7000. This is done in inches, grains and feet per second. The 7000 is how many grains there are in a US pound. A 5.56 is a .223", a 7.63 is a .308", a 9mm and 357 mag are actually both ,357".

    I would prefer doing it in a more ballanced manner. Instead of just two I think that there would be a lot of advantages to a variaty of weapons. The smaller women and kids would be well off with 5.56 but with the bigger people I would prefer 7.62 weapons. If you like assault type weapons go AR and AK. Even the 7.62x 39 is a much better stopper than the 5.56 nato while he 7.62 x 54 308 Winchester is a great general round for hunting and maybe a little more than needed for stopping humans BUT if you are in bear country it might be something to think about.

    There is also something to be said for going 22lr and 20 gauge shotgun. The 22lr in ranges under a hundred yards is not a lot less deadly than the 5.56. The ammo weight is unbeatable for the 22 and out to 100 yards accuracy is very good. The 20 gauge is also a good stopper and lighter ammo with less recoil as well.

    The thing that you have to realize is that without medical care a 22 lr in the gut is a death sentence.Almost any wound could so easily go septic that in my humble opinion (HaHa) you will be best served by avoiding conflict as much as possible and if you have to fight you want to kill the your enemy before he can harm you so I would want the most powerful weapon possible.

    During WW2 groups of soldiers were often armed with several different weapons. There were advantages go this because each weapon had its strengths. The Thompson was great in the jungle but was not much out past 75 yards while the M1 was deadly at distance but just didn't have the high rate of ongoing fire of the Thompson. Even in Vietnam some carried shotguns and in the 60s there were even a few Thompsons and the M14s but the military was going to a more standardized one type of long gun system but that doesn't make it better.

    We each will need to make our picks based on our plans, strengths, and what exactly we think we will need the guns to do and in what sort of environment. So many choices, so many possibilities. Place your bets and spin the wheel!
     
  10. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    Excellent evaluation & it reinforces my original thoughts that initially begged the question in the first place.
    5.56 for the kids & general utility. 7.62 for Mom & Dad. I will have to see how well the kids can/could handle .45 before I make a final decision.
     
  11. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Since there are more 5.56mm nation rounds around then anything else and a 5.56 will also accept a .223 (not the other way around though) it means 5.56mm and .22lr are going to be the rounds that are most available after TSHTF.
    That's why they're such a good choice GS, I like your thinking
     
  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    My daughter started shooting at the age of four. I was doing gunsmithing at the time and she was around guns too much not to be gun trained and understand some safe handling rules. If I had a gun and she wanted to shoot it we shot it. She was handling 357 mag and 45 ACP handguns easily by the age of 7 or 8. By age 9 she was shooting short barreled 44 mags. I can shoot either with just a my thumb, forefinger and middle finger. LOL, If you start them young they love the loud bang and the rock and roll recoil of a handgun. Rifles are a little different they will bruise and hurt a kid but a handgun just jumps and makes a lot of noise.

    You can do a lot with a 5.56 but when I had them I was shooting ball FMJ but for defense and survival I had slightly heavier soft and hollow points. I probably ran 20,000 rounds through a Mini 14 and helped a friend do that many through his AR-15. They are great fun to shoot and when I was younger and lived in the city and my plan involved bugging out that was the way I went. I bugged out and am now bugging in and so want weapons that have more stopping power in the shorter ranges. I live in the woods and as far as you can see is probably 100 yards.

    Now, on the subject of the 9mm I will offer a strange thing. Many years ago I did some rather extensive testing on handguns and their ability to penetrate a car. We had 22lr, 38 special, 357 mag, 9mm, 44special handguns and an old Pontiac car along with lots of room covered with barrels and buckets of grease at a recycling place. Short and sweet that 9mm was amazing. I guess it was that the rest of our rounds were lead and jacketed soft point while the 9mm was FMJ but don't hide behind a car and expect it to stop a 9mm. The rest might go though one door, the 45 and 38 special didn't even do that all the way, but the 9mm went smooth through both sides and onward!! For that reason I now also have and reload some FMJ for my 357 mags.

    These days you can get 9mm loads that are pretty good I just prefer to be far enough above the speed of sound to create a strong hydro-shock effect and you don't get that from a 9mm, 38 Special or 45 ACP
     
  13. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I have a fair bit if experience with all the mentioned arms & calibers. I'm comfortable with all of them. I like all forms of long & shorts arms. They all have pros & cons depending on the task at hand.
    My hope was, with family of 6, I can devote a common rifle & pistol selection that would suit the group. There is always a compromise.
     
  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Hope I can spare the grandkids that sort of hell until they get older.
     
  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    My Daughter loved to go shooting with me. I was doing a lot of it back then and also doing a little teaching at a gun range. To this day she has no fear or reactions to recoil. The only gun that I just don't like and won't shoot is a Marlin 44 mag carbine. The stock is too short for me and gets my peck up too high and bruises the crud out of me. A 460 Wetherby Mag and a Holland and Holland 500 nitro express double didn't phase me though. I have very broad shoulders and that short stock just doesn't fit my frame at all. I love my little Winchester 357 mag trapper though.
     
  16. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    The first time I was handed a .44 Magnum "Dirty Harry" I was 10yrs old. I wasn't afraid to shoot it, but after 6 rounds I still remember my wrists aching for a while. ;)
    None of my kids are scared of guns. I have taught all.of them safety & to respect them. My boys are ready to shoot any chance they get. My oldest girl will shoot just cause she is a bit of a tomboy & won't be bested by her brother. Lol. My other girl will shoot but I can tell she has little enthusiasm.
    In any case, they all are educated & able.
     
  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I'll tell you, since they made it legal to use lethal force to protect your home car and possessions in Texas and have made concealed and now open carrying of handgun licenses cheap and easy to get ( Dropping again to $40.00 after September first) the Ladies have gone for it in a big way. There was a saying that Samuel Colt made all men equal...well concealed carry has done that for women. In the dental office where my wife works over half of the women there are packing handguns and know how when and where they can use them.

    LOL, last week a 78 year old lady in Houston shot two guys that broke into her house. She killed one and the other ran, maybe with a flesh wound. I bet they don't try to rob Granny again. The old crap about a woman not resisting an attacked is DEAD and gone in Texas. These gals are flooding to the gun stores and the shooting ranges and they are doing it right. You remember how women used to get together for Tupperware parties? Well my daughter did her Concealed carry class with about 10 other ladies. They do shooting parties now!!

    The interesting thing is that there has been no discernible rise in illegal shootings. It isn't a crime or illegal in Texas even if the Anti gun nut are going crazy about the poor criminals that aren't being allowed to freely steal, rape and murder without fear like it used to be. There has been no rise in road rage shootings or people just having shoot outs like the anti gun people were warning about. The fact is simply that the people that are willing to have a background check done and then take a class in the safe and legal use of their firearms are just not criminally inclined.

    The criminals were already carrying guns and were not worried about that being against the law. Hey!! (Light bulb going on)...isn't that what a criminal is? The anti gun laws ONLY disarm honest law abiding people. The pro gun laws now being enacted in Texas are making it a safer place. The facts are that in the event of TEOTWAWKI the life expectancy for gangbangers will be extremely short. The good people know who they are and they only live today because the laws protect them and honest people don't break the laws.

    This sort of thing is already starting to happen in parts of the world. In Central America for example the MS-13 Gangs with their facial tattoos are being hunted down and executed by vigilante groups to the point that in the US MS-13 gangsters when they are being released from prison to be deported they are asking for asylum HERE where they are protected!! I think we should ship them and maybe follow the examples of the people in Central America that are tire of putting up with government protected killers that openly flaunt their affiliations.

    I'm looking forward to having three generations shooting together and about to start my Grandbaby shooting. She is 7 and interested so it is time. I've already bought her a kiddie sized 22 lr. You know, those little guns are fun to shoot and even though they don't fit an adult since the 22lr has no recoil I've got so I carry it sometimes when I go fishing. The little thing with its peep sight is amazingly accurate! For her first handgun to shoot we will use the same one that I gave her Mama. A Ruger Single Six and then move her to a small framed 38 Special with light wadcutter reloads. In the event of things going down I want her able to defend herself. Eventually she will move to a Henry Lever action carbine and then to a 10-22 and an AR.

    She is starting a little later than my daughter but she isn't around guns every day like she was. I got rid of my Federal Firearms License and got out of the gun business when the Clinton's sicked The Janet Reno Gestapo on gun dealers and murdered all those poor people in Waco and Ruby Ridge.
     
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    It was the 1980s or 1990s (we had teenagers back in the 90s, don't remember the date), urban area in Florida had been having a string of armed robberies. Women were arming up -- yes, women own businesses also, for heaven's sake! Local TV station sends a camera crew to one of the local shooting ranges. Women were there getting used to their handguns. Interesting thing about statistics in the coming months: Rape rates dropt precipitously (I don't remember the armed robbery rates). This showed that rapists are utterly without any courage whatsoever! Ha, ha, ha!!!!!!!!!!

    I didn't know about MS13, however down Brazil way, merchants hire merc.s and police to nuke feral youth whose life is robbery. Cruel? True. However these gangs destroy the tourist trade, which is life blood down there.

    Got my daughter a .22 when she was 11 yr. old.

    Waco: One of the Fed.s shot down in Waco was from an adjacent county to me, down South. He was killed in the Waco debacle/mass-murder. No secrets in the South. He was shot in the back with VERY newly-issued armor-piercing ammo. Civvies had had NO chance to get their hands on it at that time. He was NOT shot by the David Koresh crew. Before joining the FBI, he had been Secret Service and protected the Clintons = big mistake / he knew too much (like several Arkansas state police who knew too much and got suicided ... not to forget Vince Foster). Southern families were beyond infuriated as were locals for many counties surrounding -- again, no secrets in the South. Koresh could have been easily arrested at a bar down the road where he often visited alone or with one or two other men. Koresh wasn't ordering military-type rifles, he was ordering old bolt-actions that were available for low prices. The military weapons were planted by the FBI. The metal front doors of the Koresh building were removed and taken away, because the gunfire was all from outside, not the inside. This agent who was assassinated got killed along with his mates as they entered from a lower-level roof, first floor into second floor -- while he was entering via 2nd story window facing 1st story roof, he got shot in the back, i.e. from outside the building.
     
  19. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I'm back to researching suitable rounds. I'm a nerd about weighing all the elements I feel important. Size, effect, weight, recoil, availability now & after an event, cost & max load capacity.
    9mm 147gr H-Shok JHP looks like a decent option. 5 to 6 more capacity & close to equal weight over .45 depending on the pistol. Very Good expansion & energy when measured against std. 115gr FMJ. Cost of rounds of this particylar type are similar from 9 to .45
    Keep in mind I'm not nit picking, I'm fully aware that even the limited power if 22LR can deliver lethal results when placed properly. I'm merely contemplating the choices best for a group. I very much enjoy the back & forth conversation.
     
  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I like the Hornady TAP-FPD 124 grain jacketed hollow point +P. At 1200 fps it delivers 396fp and both good penetration and expansion in the tests. It is what I have in my Ruger LCP Pro. for concealed carry. It is a little pricey but give good stopping power for a 9mm comparable to 38 special loads.

    When it comes to defense a 22lr that you have with you beats a 44mag that you have at home. I have always been a proponant of derringer weapons for that reason and carried a O/U 38 special for a long time. Now I have a North American Arms 22lr mini revolver that I call "Ear Floss". It may not be very powerful but it is tiny and rides in my pocket as easy as a pocket knife. I have 2 shot shells then 3 jhp rounds in it and it is a great snake killer. I call it "Ear Floss" because of a story I read one time about a Zoo keeper that saved his life from an attack of a huge male gorilla by sticking one of these little guns in its eat and dropping him with one shot. I made a real cute little leather holster for it and wear it on my neck when I am fishing.

    The Koresh family were class 3 firearms dealers. I had run into them several times when I had a Table at the Houston Gun Shows. They had every legal right to have anything they wanted. When you have an FFL they can show up and check your books any time they want to. David Koresh was on good terms with the local sheriff and all they had to do if they didn't want to go out there was let the sheriff call him. He had done it before over complaints about all the shooting that they did. If someone wants to talk to me their first choice should NOT be to try and crawl in my daughters second flood bedroom window.
    All they had to do was knock on the door like normal human beings instead of invading like Nazi storm troopers.

    In the end there was no reason to burn them to death. They killed them all men, women and children for no reason except that they dared to legally sell guns. With a Class 3 license you can legally have and sell class 3 weapons. I had a friend that actually had a WW2 era belt fed 50 caliber machine gun on a tripod that he moved. I had no interest in that sort of thing and so only had a class 2 license and only sold guns that were legal for unlicensed civilian possession.

    They murdered Randy Weaver's wife and son over a RUMOR that he had cut the barrel of a shotgun off a 1/2" shorter than legal but never presented evidence of it. They would do it like this. An agent would get up and walk out of the room to another room and then call and tell the agents in the other room that someone had done something. Then based on that "anonymous" tip they would hit someones home and dare them to react and try to protect their family. If you did they would kill you, plant evidence and move on. Randy Weaver's wife was shot in the head. The weapon she had in her arms when she was shot was an infant child.
     
  21. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    Love my country, Fear my Gubment
     
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