"untimate Backcountry Rifle And Cartridge"

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by Pragmatist, Jul 30, 2020.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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  2. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Deer:
    As to cartridge choices, that can vary a lot depending on location and expectations.
    That said, there is nothing in North America you can't kill with most medium to large 7 mm or 30 caliber cartridges, so I'd want a 7mm 08 or a 7mm magnum
     
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  3. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Snyper,

    Thank you.

    When I initially read the term in the article, was thinking of blackstrap molasses.
     
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  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Or blackstrap rum.


    Have a Tikka T3. Great rifle.

    "... and the 6.5 WBY RPM cartridge sends a factory loaded 140-grain Accubond at just about 3200 fps, plenty of juice to handle the longer shots and wind that sheep hunters are often presented with. At the muzzle, it has slightly less energy than a .300 Win. Mag. shooting 180-grain bullets, and with a good, bonded bullet, it would be superb on sheep, caribou, and mountain goats. It would also be good for handling elk, moose, or tackling grizzly bear."

    A 140 gr. bullet in a 6.5 diameter for grizzlies? No thank you. Velocity may speak for high energy, however such energy also causes light bullets to yaw and come apart in the meat, not the boiler works. Gotta dig through a lot of meat and bones sometimes. Such requires a heavy maul. Physics iz physics.

    Back-country rifle in the forests of Appalachia, give me a lever 45-70.

    upload_2020-7-30_18-44-8.png
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  5. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    I keep one of these around....in .308 Winchester calibration and for which I can reload my empty brass..

    I Prefer iron sights but also have glass/optics on mine...as my eyes are not as good as once they were.

    Ten round magazine....but have 20 rounds if needed....but 20 rounds significantly throws off the balance of the rifle.

    You can get 5 round magazines to comply with hunting laws.

    I like a simple bolts action rifle....

    Also have an Ishapore Enfield rifle in .308 caliber...but it is heavy compared to this Mossberg.


    https://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-patrol-rifle-27738/

    The very nice thing about .308 caliber as is also the case with 30.06 is that there is a very wide selection of bullet weights available for it. Even more for the knowledgeable reloader.

    .308 Winchester can also be found most places coast to coast..

    My recent acquisition in this same calibration is a Ruger Precision Rifle but researching what glass I will mount on it.


    Olde Geezer....

    Ironic to me that in the time of whiz bang whamadine...gadgets and high tech that the 45-70 is still going strong and has a dedicated following. Blinding light speed velocity is not everything contrary to popular belief. Serious energy delivery is the bailiwick of the 47-70. Serious energy delivery!!!


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
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  6. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "Ironic to me that in the time of whiz bang whamadine...gadgets and high tech that the 45-70 is still going strong and has a dedicated following. Blinding light speed velocity is not everything contrary to popular belief. Serious energy delivery is the bailiwick of the 47-70. Serious energy delivery!!!"
    -- Watcherchris

    That the 45-70 has resurrected is a balm to my soul. Could it be that some sanity may be creeping into the madness of this day?!

    The 6.5 Creedmoor is the resurrection of the 6.5 Swede.

    The 7mm-08 is the resurrection of the 7x57 Mauser ballistics.

    I could go on and on and on about how our generation of "new" cartridges aren't new. All of this has been done before -- and long ago.

    What is new? Hmmm ... short cartridge cases for short rifle-actions. That's understandable and serves purpose.

    The scopes of today are fabulous, plus they are affordable relative to times past. The optics engineering of the past was brilliant, but one had to seek-out German scopes for such. Today, that level of engineering is available across the globe and one needn't sell one of their children to acquire an excellent scope. I loved the optics our dads brought back from their slaughtering German men adventures. A friend's dad brought back a pair of German artillery binoculars. All of the wonderments I can't go into here. For the woods and in low light, the German reticle #4 can't be topped as far as I'm concerned.

    Some things need not be resurrected. Socialism perpetually fails, yet humans return to it even as does the dog to its vomit. (Plagiarizing the Bible has to be forgivable, right?)

    Killing Eastern white-tailed deer requires no sophisticated rifle, nor rifle great in power, nor minute-of-angle rifle. Hunters insufficient to the task should seek improvements in their own discipline, not that of their rifle. The 30-30 has sufficed, does suffice, and will continue to do so on into the future so long as pretty-eyed stretched rats on stilts continue to overpopulate.

    Maybe Bambi was killed when he ran out in front of a truck. Poor truck driver! He now must make expensive repairs to his truck. If only some hunter had dropped Bambi in the woods, this truck tragedy would have been avoided.
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  7. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    I have several 308 Win caliber rifles but if I'm headed to the Rockies, I'm carrying my 30-06. Just personal preference from work (mostly black bears) and game hunting (elk, mule deer, etc.). The areas I usually hunt out west have a healthy population of grizzly. If it wouldn't kill and grind my deer at the same time, I'd carry a 375 H&H. Grizzly are tough.

    Dale
     
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  8. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Olde Geezer,

    I like my Hornday Reloading manual and verily enjoy reading the history of these loads ...cases..bullet types and of course powders.

    In such reading and combining this with my other book on Cartridge Conversions it made me more aware of how many cartridges are no longer available as in times past..or what new cartridges are around today due to better powder and or bullet available...though it is obvious that some were working in that direction in years past..but the current tools were not quite developed...etc etc...




    I knew an olde man who had a 6.5mm Swede and he swore by it. He was not impressed with many of the modern magnums and such.

    This olde man taught me something about the 1903 Springfield because he had a rare one....and I have one but not like his.

    The 1903 Springfield came in a special production with a special barrel called a "Star" gauged barrel for competition...and he had one of those "Star " barrels. And his rifle would shoot....and very accurate.

    HIs is the only such 1903 Springfield I have seen with such an special barrel.


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
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  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    And then there is polygonal rifling.

    https://www.tngun.com/what-is-polygonal-rifling/

    upload_2020-7-31_7-40-38.png


    Wanna make a 30-06 accurate? When reloading, use case filler. Why is the .308 accurate? The load required fills the case. Empty space in the case means that as each round is fired the powder load could have shifted forward in the case or could have shifted back near the primer. This powder shifting in the case causes different burn rates, which causes differing velocities, which changes bullet strike location.

    Using case filler can make the 30-06 as accurate as the .308.

    The .35 Whelen is basically the product of necking-up the 30-06 case and putting in more powder.

    https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.35+Whelen.html

    Short story, the 30-06 case has plenty of capacity and then some.
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  10. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    I ran into a fellow who has a rifle in .22 Hornet. I have looked this up in my Hornady reloading manual.

    He likes the rifle though he only has a few rounds for it and ammunition is difficult to find and so too the brass..but brass can be obtained from special sources for reloading.

    This calibration was popular some time back but has mostly fallen to the popularity of more recent calibers like .222 or .223.


    Reloading is about the only way to keep such older calibrations in operating order...

    It looks like magnum pistol powders are what works best in this calibration.


    Will look into the case filler concept..
    What kind of materials are used as a case filler????
    Thanks.

    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  11. Morgan101

    Morgan101 Master Survivalist
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    I'm with Old Geezer on this one. My go-to gun for the back country would be my 45-70. It is a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, lever action. It will handle anything in North America, and I don't plan on being in the back country anywhere else.
     
  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The best backcountry rifle is totally a matter of what country you are in and what part of that country you are going too. If you are going someplace that has big predatory animals you had better carry something that will take them down with one shot. If you are going into open country you need something that can reach out there and take down a large animal at least 250 to 300 meters out there.

    In brush country, you need a fast swinging unscoped rifle that can hammer something that is close. You need to hammer it because in the sort of brush that I am talking about if it runs off even 50 yards you may never find it. Also if something big and mean pops up and rushes you You will not have time for two shots.

    Where I live it is hard to beat a lever-action 30-30. We are forested and other than on pipeline and utility right of ways you can't see very far and most of your shots will be less than one hundred meters. Hogs are the only animal that is a real threat. We don't have bears or cougars and what few wolves we have, avoid people like the plague.

    Actually, in the brush I like a pump shotgun. A load of buckshot or a slug up close is a sure stopper. I know one guy that uses a 336 Winchester magnum for whitetail deer. Even out to a couple of hundred yards that is a bit much for a little 150 pound deer. He doesn't need that much power but it makes him happy to always have the biggest gun in the camp.

    In Bear country, if you are hunting small game and can't use a powerful rifle it would be nice to have a good handgun for back up. A 44 mag would be nice but even a 357 mag with the right loads can do pretty well on black Bear for defensive use NOT for hunting them.

    I have to confess that I love the woods and am quite happy to be the TOP of the food chain here.
     
  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Sorry I've not written back before now. Had a bunch of irons in the fire of late.

    I've never owned a .22 Hornet nor a .218 Bee. Haven't even known anybody owning such. These cartridges are now in this day are relegated to those who enjoy reloading. Me, from what I've heard, I believe that such cartridges have massive applicability ... if you live where they are valid game-getters. My observation is highly prejudiced. In the Southern Appalachian region, there are few areas wherein one must effect the proverbial "long distance shot." Even in the valleys, the fields and pastures do not extend to the horizon. Another prejudice of mine is that I believe that in decades past, numerous decades past, our grandfathers had available to them the rifles and rifle cartridges more than sufficient to the task.

    For varmint shooting / pest control, the .22 Hornet / .218 Bee class of calibers has enough energy and flatness of trajectory to get the job done over fields that are neither vast in length nor width. There are millions of square miles of such in America. If one wishes to shoot varmints at truly long distances, then one must step up to cartridges possessing larger cases. For instance, if one is a rancher west of the Mississippi, then that person would be better served with a .223, a 22-250, a .243 Win, a 6mm Rem, .220 Swift, ... -- that clan of cartridges.

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  14. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    First, let me note that fillers have the greatest applicability in black powder cartridges and when experimenting using smokeless powder in a case designed for black powder. You'll find on the web, filler wads for the 45-70. Filler lubes can be used to help protect barrels.

    Note also that the use of fillers in our current day, is little-known, dismissed offhand, and often considered obsolete. The vast array of powders available in this era does provide that which was once only provided by making sure that the powder was back against the primer using fillers and wads. In reduced loads, it is a safe practice to use fillers to prevent second-fire ignition that can result in horribly dangerous over-pressures. And fillers are also used by some of the OCD-afflicted uber-precision shooting crew ... often the older members.

    Case filler info links:

    http://reloadammo.com/rel-location.htm

    http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html

    https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/reloading-with-fillers-to-control-powder-position.227528/
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  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    You know, where I live we just don't have a lot of predatory animals that you need protection from. I assume that we are talking about a long term retreat into the backcountry. Where I live I think that the best rifle pistol combo for me might be either my Ruger 10-22 or my Henry lever-action 22lr carbine. The nice thing about the lever action is that it can fire subsonic rounds where the 10-22 needs full power rounds to work right.

    For my handgun I would be torn between my Ruger Mark 1 Target pistol, (it is a great small game hunting pistol) and my Taurus 94 8 shot 22lr revolver. It is surprisingly accurate and fits well in a holster made for K frame s&W revolvers. It has a 5" barrel while the Ruger target pistol has a 7" barrel. I also have a fondness for a Ruger single 6 that was my first handgun as soon as I was old enough to buy it.

    When I am traveling alone I have no need for killing anything that is more than a one meal size. In the heat that we have, it will rot too fast. I CAN drop a deer with A 10-22. I can drop a deer with a 10-22. I just need to place my shot precisely. I will aim for the eye and that will either kill it clean of skip off of their skull only giving them a headache.

    The big plus to a 22lr is that you can easily carry a LOT of ammo and, at least down here almost every little convenience store has 22lr rounds and 12 ga shotgun shells. A lot of people that only own one gun will have a 22 so scavenging if necessary will be better.

    as far as a 22lr for defensive use it isn't the best BUT I have shot that Mark 1 target pistol until I can hit a soda bottle cap from a fast draw and if I assume my firing stance can put 5 shots in a playing card in about a second and a half. The longer heavier barrel makes rapid-firing super easy with almost no muzzle jump to spread the group out. It is a squirrel and bunny sniper weapon. All headshots.
     
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  16. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    30-06 bolt action with fixed box magazine, simple trigger will do it for me. I can and have loaded the 30-06 up and down.
     
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  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    They used to make saboted 22 bullets for shooting in 307 and 308 caliber rifles. It made them good varmint rifles.

    The 30-06 is probably one of if not THE most versatile round yet made. You can hunt from Elephants to ground squirrels with it. If you reload it really is a do it all round.

    If I lived in West Texas where 300 yard shots are common I might well go with the same set up. My only requirement is that it must have a good scope and also quality open iron sights. I refuse to even own any of these new rifles with no place on them for open sights. Drop it one time and break the scope and it is useless for long shots.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020 at 4:09 PM
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  18. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    "... saboted 22 bullets ..." Bought them have tried them and grouped them. Now, I can't tell anyone squat about my findings, because that was like 3+ decades ago. I'd bet that I still have some of it left. What little bit I remember is that the accuracy was nothing to write home about. I mean had it proved a performer, that info would have really stuck in my head.

    Federal "Gold Medal" 168 gr target ammo works great in both of my minute-of-angle .308 rifles. That's another ammunition for which I'd do a commercial. Thse rifles and that ammo are superior in accuracy to my ability to shoot accurately. In the hands of someone better trained and practiced, lord knows what the accuracy capabilities would be of those rifle/ammo combos.

    I LOVE aperture sights! On rifle team, that's your equipment. Love my Enfield Mk IV no. 2 with its vernier rear sight (NRA Excellent condition). I like aperture sights make of robust steel. I like a shrouded front sight or steel side-wings to protect my front post. When it's business time, flip up the vernier. Wood furniture up front keeps your hands from getting their skin fried off should you accidentally touch a red-hot barrel.

    https://www.recoilweb.com/old-school-no-4-mk-2-enfield-rifle-152025.html

    In the realm of the 30-06, check-out this hybrid Springfield:



    The .307. Synchronicity. Just this past week, I was giving thought to the .307. What generated these thoughts was our site's strings on lever action vs. bolt actions for brown bear loads. I don't think the .307 would be accurate, however it was a super neat idea on the part of Winchester. Is your rifle a Winchester or a Marlin? I like flat-nosed bullets for I live in mountain woods country. And flat, exposed lead does the deed, right then and there.

    These two videos on the .307 are downright poor in quality (if you don't go to sleep watching this guy trying to speak, maybe there's something in there of use), but they are something:







    Marlin .444 necked down to make brass

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  19. randyt

    randyt Master Survivalist
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    I recently picked up a 86 winchester in 38-56. I am a sucker for a 86 winchester, a personality flaw I'm sure. Anyhoo at one time that round and gun was probably a contender for a backcountry round. For me if I were to tote a 86 winchester it would be in a 45-70.
     
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  20. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I don't understand why they got totally away from aperture sighting systems for things like Winchesters. For distances that things like the 30-30 are really good at you don't need a scope until you get old eyes like I do now. I am so leary of scopes on my guns that are mostly for survival purposes. I know that they make a huge effect in group sizes once you get past one hundred yards but Out to about two hundred to two fifty my groups didn't spread enough that a deer would notice.

    I guess if I lived in a wide-open place and was hunting antelope or such and shooting mostly over 300 yards I would see things differently. I never owned a scoped rifle until I was about 40. I was raised shooting iron sights and just never felt the need to use a scope.

    I especially like the slim lines of lever actions and putting a scope on them ruins their lines to me. I consider all of my lever actions with the exception of the Savage ((F to be the sort of gun that I might just carry when I was out walking in the woods. I do that a lot with my Winchester trapper 357 and my Henry 22LR with a big loop. They are sort of my walkabout guns.

    I did seriously love my Leopold 3X9 on my Model 70 Winchester. It was a 270 and was a tack driver at almost any range. If it had been a 30-06 I would probably still have it. I am even pretty fond of my 2x7 on myI can fall back on if the scope gets messed up. squirrel hunting 10-22 so I'm not totally against scopes as long as they have iron sights I can fall back on if the scope gets messed up.
     
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