Us Army Armored Vehicle Upgrades

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Dalewick, Oct 9, 2020.

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  1. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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  2. Alaskajohn

    Alaskajohn Master Survivalist
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    With the US, weapons systems have always had to compromise with multiple challenging but competing needs for deployability, mobility, survivability and lethality. Bigger guns mean increased weight complicating deployability for sure and sometimes mobility. Since we tend to fight our wars oversees, all these factors are important.
     
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  3. Pragmatist

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    Good evening Dale,

    Just watched above.

    It's definitely the election's last month of campaigning. The big companies get their names highlighted.

    The video was interesting but not sure what Army is trying to do. Why go to fin-stabilized rounds instead of spin-stabilized ? What are they working on ?

    As much as the new 50mm gets attention, much thoughts generated by film showing both tread and wheeled vehicles.

    Meanwhile, gotta figure out how to avoid reloading ammo in snow conditions if it means wearing gloves.
     
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  4. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Saboted fin stabilized rounds have increased velocity over conventional rounds and impart more energy on target. They are only used in AT rounds with penetrator tips. From what I've seen of the targeting electronics, the gunner can change round types (AT,AP, HE, etc.) while staying on target and the weapon changes round types on command with a human never having to touch the ammo. A armored vehicle with that 50mm gun can neutralize enemy tanks, something the 30mm guns can't do to most main battle tanks, or at least not without DU AT rounds.

    The Striker Armored vehicles had no main battle gun initially, so I would even consider the 30mm gun many are being retrofitted with a big upgrade for an infantry vehicle.

    Another thought on those Saboted fin stabilized rounds. The round is initially stabilized by the barrel rifleing but the sabot releasing from the round increases the velocity, as all sabot encased rounds do.

    My question on the video is. Why is the army still using TOW rockets on Bradly Fighting Vehicles? I know there are way better shoot and forget missile systems they should be using, unless this is just old video.

    Dale

    ebcf202abd86e77224c49e3502bb59b9.jpg
     
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  5. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    EXACTLY :cool:

    There is new variant for TOW including the top-down attack and the newer bunker buster variant. And using legacy platform do significantly cut development cost by using existing platform.

    Did anyone notice that there is a trend toward bigger guns these days? Even MBT gun might get replace by 130mm



    From what I can see this trend was triggered by advancement in armour technology. Top of the line MBT have far more serious armouring and defence measures than their Cold War counterpart could even dream of.
     
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  6. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Dale,

    Real good info; appreciate this.

    I don't know current events re TOW. There were debates on whether they were originally rockets or missiles. There were - major complaints - from field users that there was no human time to make adjustments and the field users would be killed in the instantaneous counter attack by enemy air-land war doctrine.

    Around 1999, Rayethon submitted their improverment, the TOW-FF - TOW Fire and Forget modification. Don't know what happened. Maybe SecDef Mike Esper of Rayethon will be the last of the batch pushing all this.

    My overall view is governed by Alaska John's above point: mobility and transportability determine the actual real value of these enhanced platforms.

    ...

    Never did learn the cost of DU ordnance.
     
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  7. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Advanced mobility and deployability are why Stryker vehicles were developed and Stryker combat teams were developed. Being deployable in a C-130 makes rapid deployment a key planning issue.
    220px-Stryker_MC_unloading_from_C130.jpg

    The Army currently has 7 of the Stryker Brigades and all are considered fast response units.

    ABCT (1).png
    As far as I have been able to find out the current TOW systems are still wire guided. Hopefully that's not correct as that alone would be a great reason to eliminate that system from the Bradley vehicles.

    Dale
     
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  8. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Dale,

    Well received.
     
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  9. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    You need to rethink that
    It goes against all the laws of physics.
     
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    1. TMT Tactical
      I think, Dale means it slow the loss of velocity, by dropping the sabot casing. As any round leaves the barrel, it is at it's maximum velocity.
       
      TMT Tactical, Oct 11, 2020
  10. Pragmatist

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    Good morning all,

    I believe Dale is correct as to what he wrote - at least as I read it.

    There's some background to this that's needed - because the speed (velocity) at arriving next to target - is increased - with this sabot round.

    The comparisions are not (necessarily [but involved]) the initiall speed leaving the gun tube versus arriving at the target zone. Compare the speeds of the older steel rounds (at one time I had a real good physique and it wasn't because of a long term gym club membership) to the discussed sabot round.

    The speed at impact zone ... the area next to the target ... INCREASED with the replacement tungsten compound in the sabot configuration (versus the older steel).

    Thus, in summary:

    The speed segments are NOT just from the specific gun tube to close proximity to target but rathercomparing the new sabot round performance speed segments with what steel was originally doing.

    Believe there are, like Tide soap, new, even more improved sabot rounds out there now.

    NOTE that all of my above rambling does not involve booster segments in the round like on long range missiles.

    ......

    Better living through science..............
     
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  11. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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  12. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    Sabots are simple physics.
    Design:

    The function of a sabot is to provide a larger bulkhead structure that fills the entire bore area between an intentionally designed sub-caliber flight projectile and the barrel, giving a larger surface area for propellant gasses to act upon than just the base of the smaller flight projectile (Drysdale 1978). Efficient aerodynamic design of a flight projectile does not always accommodate efficient interior ballistic design to achieve high muzzle velocity. This is especially true for arrow-type projectiles, which are long and thin for low drag efficiency, but too thin to shoot from a gun barrel of equal diameter to achieve high muzzle velocity. The physics of interior ballistics demonstrates why the use of a sabot is advantageous to achieve higher muzzle velocity with an arrow-type projectile. Propellant gasses generate high pressure, and the larger the base area that pressure acts upon the greater the net force on that surface. Force, pressure times area, provides an acceleration to the mass of the projectile. Therefore, for a given pressure and barrel diameter, a lighter projectile can be driven from a barrel to a higher muzzle velocity than a heavier projectile. However, a lighter projectile may not fit in the barrel, because it is too thin. To make up this difference in diameter, a properly designed sabot provides less parasitic mass than if the flight projectile were made full-bore, in particular providing dramatic improvement in muzzle velocity for APDS (Armor-piercing discarding sabot) and APFSDS ammunition.

    Seminal research on two important sabot configurations for long rod penetrators used in APFSDS ammunition, namely the "saddle-back" and "double-ramp" sabot was performed by the US Army Ballistics Research Laboratory during the development and improvement of modern 105mm and 120mm kinetic energy APFSDS penetrators(Drysdale 1978), permitted by the significant recent advancement in the computerized Finite element method in structural mechanics at that time; and now represents the existing fielded technology standard. (See for example the development of the M829 series of anti-tank projectiles beginning with the base model M829 in the early 1980s, to the recently fielded M829A4 model, employing ever longer "double-ramp" sabots). Upon muzzle exit, the sabot is discarded, and the smaller flight projectile flies to the target with less drag resistance than a full-bore projectile. In this manner, very high velocity and slender, low drag projectiles can be fired more efficiently, (see external ballistics and terminal ballistics). Nevertheless, the weight of the sabot represents parasitic mass that must also be accelerated to muzzle velocity, but does not contribute to the terminal ballistics of the flight projectile. For this reason, great emphasis is placed on selecting strong yet lightweight structural materials for the sabot, and configuring the sabot geometry to efficiently employ these parasitic materials at minimum weight penalty (Drysdale 1978).

    The purpose of the sabot is to allow a smaller diameter flight projectile to be launched at greater muzzle velocity than if the flight projectile alone were fired from a gun of equal caliber (full-bore). Firing a smaller-sized projectile wrapped in a sabot raises the muzzle velocity of the projectile. Made of some lightweight material (usually high strength plastic in small caliber rifles, (see SLAP Saboted light armor penetrator), shotguns and muzzle loader ammunition; aluminium, steel, and carbon fiber reinforced plastic for modern anti-tank kinetic energy ammunition; and, in classic times, wood or papier-mâché – in muzzle loading cannons). The sabot usually consists of several longitudinal pieces held in place by the cartridge case, an obturator or driving band. When the projectile is fired, the sabot blocks the gas, provides significant structural support against launch acceleration, and carries the projectile down the barrel. When the sabot reaches the end of the barrel, the shock of hitting still air pulls the parts of the sabot away from the projectile, allowing the projectile to continue in flight. Modern sabots are made from high strength aluminum and graphite fiber reinforced epoxy. They are used primarily to fire long rods of very dense materials, such as tungsten heavy alloy and depleted uranium. (see for example the M829 series of anti-tank projectiles).
    TRESPI-5_APFSDS.png

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour-piercing_discarding_sabot

    Dale
     
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  13. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Nope. There are no increases in velocity during the external ballistics portion of the event.

    Yes they are, which is why this statement was incorrect:

    There are no "velocity increases" once it leaves the barrel.
    They reach maximum velocity at the muzzle.
    That applies to all projectiles from all "firearms", no matter how large or small.
     
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  14. Pragmatist

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    Good evening Snyper,

    It is an incremental velocity increase when the sabor is discarded from the projectile.

    Max velocity at the barrel does not yield an incremental loss of velocity for entire flight path.

    Toward the approach to the target, the round, without the sabot, increases because of less mass without the sabot.

    ...... unless we are using different terms and specific concepts - which we probably are.
     
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    1. Dalewick
      P, Sorry I'm not piping in more but I have Snyper blocked. Better for my Karma that way. LOL!
       
      Dalewick, Oct 12, 2020
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  15. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    I haven't been following the whole discussion on all this only to post a video of a F-22 saying high to an Iranian pilot. LOL But I'm just going to offer what I know about physics and this tank round that everyone is talking about least my actual knowledge on what the round is capable of doing from the capabilities of a tank that fired it.

    From my standpoint here you have two primary forces that will work against a projectile like a tank round. One is the constant force of gravity and the other is air resistance. There's another, though may be minor and that is heat generated by the friction of air. Now when you fire a projectile, universal law (as I call it) with gravity and air resistance WILL have an adverse affect on the projectile. So as it travels to its destination its velocity will be less than what it was from the moment it was fired.

    Now with a bullet from a gun perspective as it pertains to a sniper's bullet, they also take into account air pressure, humidity and wind which are all factors in addition to what I said above. When you're a sniper this shit is science when it comes to putting a bullet in a target.

    Here's a little something I just now found out about this and it appears I hit my target :D https://gundigest.com/article/understanding-gravity-effects-bullets

    So from my perspective, it doesn't matter if there are stabilizer fins and what not, if your round doesn't have its own energy supply to aid in forward motion, it will loss velocity as it travels to the target. Back in high school advanced physics we called this delta V (for lack of the Latin D symbol which I'm too lazy to look up) or change in velocity, and we plotted this stuff on a graph. Was a wonderful class, still wish I remembered everything. LOL I still have my book though! Been meaning to pick it up. I want to go back and learn about work in versus work out as it pertains to electricity and what not. We covered that nitty gritty stuff as well. In more advanced classes they covered fiber optics and light principals which I think went into the strange realm of quantum physics. And yes, there was a lot of heavy math involved and because of it many students failed. To my credit, on the first quarter examine I scored a B. I was very surprised.

    At any rate, where am I going wrong here? LOL
     
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  16. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    I would say there would be an increase, but I wouldn't think at an incremental level due to the constant force of gravity and air resistance. I'm thinking that once the sabor is jettisoned, the speed may pick up a little due to the aforementioned less mass effect on its energy potential, but the primary forces of gravity and air resistance will, or at least should have a negative effect on the projectile's energy impact than what it was from the time it was fired. That crazy sabor variable here is tripping me up. LOL

    Where's Myth Busters when you need them! :D
     
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  17. Pragmatist

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    Good morning F22,

    Replying to the above last post:

    If you say there would be an increase in speed, this is the point trying to be presented. That's it.

    Whether it is incremental ...... it's not as a constant calibrated speed - if you're using word "incremental" to mean this. I wasn't. I just used the word for the last segment of the flight path before contacting the target.

    ......

    Replying to the longer post above:

    If instead of a sabot, presume there's a released parachute on the projectile prior to arriving at the target.

    (Not a cargo or personal type of para !)

    Would we not agree that the speed would change ?

    Change to the parachute to a sabot sheath in example.

    This is what is being attempted to get expressed here.

    ......

    I've always said a hotel conference room or an Adams Family big ghost house (we'd all have to fix it up) or even a campfire meeting would be a better place than the web to discuss stuff..

    Some of my biggest sales were at fast food restaurants without elaborate power points and big Rank Xerox photocopiers. Table place mats - if any - and napkins got loaded with notes - and everything ended happily ever when depositing the accounts receivable.
     
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  18. Snyper

    Snyper Master Survivalist
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    Karma has nothing to do with the facts. I'm sorry you don't want to hear them.

    You keep saying that.
    It will never be true.

    Those are all words, but they mean nothing the way you've strung them together.

    Again, you're repeating something that goes against the laws of physics.

    Words have specific meanings.

    "Increases" "Velocity"
    They each only mean one thing.

    There is no velocity increase once the projectile leaves the muzzle.

    Do some reading on "external ballistics" and see if you can find a source that shows what I've said is incorrect in any way.

    As Dale said, it's simple physics. :)

     
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  19. Snyper

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    Everything I saw in that post was correct.
    You need to read some of this guy's books
    He's an actual rocket scientist who loves to shoot and teach ballistics.
    BRYAN LITZ

    https://appliedballisticsllc.com/

     
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  20. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    Cite the post so that I can tear it apart or agree to it which ever may be the case.
     
  21. Pragmatist

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    Good afternoon Snyper,

    We have different views and use of words, terms and expressions.

    Besides having read some of this material, had also worked around it.

    It's simple physics at the test site and also at the last 2 seconds of flight to target.
     
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  22. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    No Air Cav at Brigade level?

    Artillery at Brigade level is something we seriously need around here.
     
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  23. Dalewick

    Dalewick Master Survivalist
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    U.S. Army air cav units are typically at the division level with air assault elements available to any infantry, spec op or FO unit with the proper TOE.

    Dale
     
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  24. Snyper

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    Most words have limited meanings.
    "Views" are subjective and have nothing to do with ballistics nor physics.

    While the projectile is still losing velocity. ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

    "Muzzle velocity is the speed of projectile (bullet, pellet, slug, ball/shots or shell) with respect to[1] the muzzle at the moment it leaves the end of a gun's barrel (i.e. the muzzle).

    [2]Firearm muzzle velocities range from approximately 120 m/s (390 ft/s) to 370 m/s (1,200 ft/s) in black powder muskets,[3] to more than 1,200 m/s (3,900 ft/s)[4] in modern rifles with high-velocity cartridges such as the .220 Swift and .204 Ruger, all the way to 1,700 m/s (5,600 ft/s)[5] for tank guns firing kinetic energy penetrator ammunition.

    For projectiles in unpowered flight, its velocity is highest at leaving the muzzle and drops off steadily because of air resistance. "
     
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  25. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Snyper,

    I'm up....

    Had not been discussing muzzle volocity.

    We have different approaches.

    I'm keeping this short because sometimes threads can get out of control. I will end my thread participation with this final comment:

    Different "views" are around the subject of quantum mechanics which could be called subjective and they have something to do with physics.

    I'm up and must have another cup of karma.
     
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  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology

    The above link is all I have concerning electrothermal accelerators (plasma cannons), where are they at of late in practical terms?! My info is over 20 years old. I'm massively out of the loop on this one.

    Back in the day, the big sticky-wicket was developing capacitors from hell. Sparking one of these puppies is straight-up sci-fi. Speaking of sci-fi, when I went alookin for info, all I got was a bunch of childish sh## video game nonsense. I found some capacitors we'd have loved having centuries ago (that's when I was skinny and walked much more quickly).

    The above article informs that the ETC is now being coupled with both solid fuel and maybe liquids (the liquid path had begun "back when", I remember that much, but "sparking" the liquid, that was another matter, bit too high of a hurdle at the time). However, I'm not finding info on this technology. Back in the day, the concept was to put a plasma gun on mobile artillery.

    I have NOT kept up with this at all. Has anyone any info on this? Have plasma toys been deployed, en masse? Still all experimental?
    .
     
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  27. Snyper

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    It's all related.
    You cannot say "velocity increases" without referring to the initial (muzzle) velocity.

    What do you think is "out of control"?
    A simple, logical discussion about ballistics?

    Quantum mechanics have nothing to do with this context.

    You should hang around and try to learn some more about ballistics.
    It's fascinating stuff. :)
     
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  28. Snyper

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  29. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    Couple of things here.


    A) A lot of these video games, TV shows and movies are kinda like a weird insight at what the future holds simply because the creators of these genres have done their fair amount of research on the topic and added it to their product for kids and audiences alike to absorb and blow their money on. Such is the case with airplane model makers like Tester. They'd come out with wired concept aircraft designs that no one has seen before, and that's probably only true because they may have done their research or perhaps got some inside knowledge or something. Back in the '80s I think it was, Tester released a model aircraft called the F-19. It looked like a black project aircraft that was stealth. It was Tester's best selling model ever and I think they made videos games based on this supposed aircraft that may or may not have been undergoing flight testing.

    B) Trump as of late withen maybe a span of a month has said a couple times we (the U.S.) have some unbelievable weapons. What those are are anybodies guess. But I do remember Trump rightfully saying way back when that we should never say we're going to do this or that or say what we have the capability of doing in a war least we give the enemy important Intel. That philosophy was pretty much displayed when we went after Syria not once but twice for using chemical weapons. And the slaying of the Iranian prick Qassem-Soleimani who was directly responsible for scores of U.S. soldier's deaths or maiming by proxy during Operation Iraqi Freedom. Also, remember that MOAB being dropped on a boat load of ISIS fighters in Afghanistan? They had no idea. Now I don't see ISIS being so much of a problem right now and Syria hasn't released any more chemical weapons since they got a punch in the mouth. At least I haven't heard anything yet. Add to that Iran was harassing our Navy and Trump gave the ultimatum that if it happened again he gave the order for the Navy to shoot and take no prisoners. Seems to have worked because I have yet to hear in the news Iran was still harassing our Navy. This is one thing I like about Trump because I often yelled at the TV and posted all over the Internet during the Obama years that I'd do the same thing. Now we have a commander-in-chief with real common sense, business acumen and testicular fortitude to do what I've been saying all along. No, it's not hawkish, it's just common sense to say knock it the F off or else. The statuesque can kiss Trump's ass. Perfect example of that was the double barrel middle finger salute to the Paris accords and the trans pacific partnership. Oh! NAFTA? That's dead and gone. HAHAHAHA!


    Anyway, said more than I wanted but it just came all together. Just filled out my ballot yesterday. But I have a felling this stupid state of Colorado will vote blue again for a third time now in a row. I so wanna go to Texas or Florida where it's nice and warm and at least my vote has a chance. On our ballot here is to make the popular vote the way to pick the president. These people are grabasses to the extreme.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2020
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