Usmc Not Relevant

https://www.military.com/daily-news...versial-proposal-get-rid-of-marine-corps.html


Good morning all,

Per ...

Well worth comtemplating. I agree with the Army colonel.

The mentioned SecNav James Forrestal, after retiring as first Secretary of Defense, was hospitalized at Bethesdia Naval Hospital (now renamed Walter Reed ... ) and jumped up to about 5 stories committing suicide.

 

When the next country rejects the dying dollar, how will we, "Send in the Marines?!"

Since we are defunding the police and it has been proven that "making nice" softens the hearts of the bad guys, I think that from now on we should, "Send in the Sociologists!"
.

 

Good afternoon Lonewolf and Old Geezer,

Defacto closing down (at least whittling away large budget and personnel) the USAF for the more streamlined Space Force is a major reason Trump is hated to the hilt and then more.

The best solution ? "Peace Corps, not Marine Corps"

We Americans can't afford even a sleepy 1950s National Guard. I can expect that national assests will be liquidated. A major pile of money will come from residential houses.

 

Maybe in the 1940s, the USA should have minded its own business and not fought back against Herr Hitler's aggressions.
.

 

Can't see it happening, they are very very good soldiers, I've worked with them in the past and they get respect.

 

This is a Bravo Sierra article and it depends on people not knowing any history and also not thinking.

Pure Politics and depending on overall ignorance.


I do not agree with the Army Colonel....

First off...how long does It take the Army to get deployed???? Anywhere???

The Marines are often more forward deployed on any given day. There are Marine Expeditionary Units deployed out to sea right now on Navy ships...somewhere in the world....

Not the Army.

The Marines tend to travel much faster and lighter....and are often there before the Army.

What is someone thinking here????

They think everyone out here has a basic television and or movie education. Wow!!!!


Something else not told to the General Public. What the Marines do they have always done when the bulk of the Budget monies has gone to the other branches of the Military.
Yet they have performed under conditions which the other branches would have difficulty doing for themselves and on a similar budget as the Marines.
And yet the Marines are often last in line to get their equipment updated...last on the totem pole or pecking order.

And I was in the US Air Force...not the Marines yet I know this ...about the Military and particularly the Marines.

In this ...the American people have gotten a good value in dollars out of the Marine Corps compared to the other branches of the US military.
I can say this about the US Coast Guard as well....for the size of their budget..

The other branches of the military are excessively budget bloated....
Perhaps now you can understand why the Army wants the Marine budget..
Ishmaelites at work..

Oh...and in the future ...the Space Force is going to be taking more and more of the Military budget...
You are going to see this movie scenario repeated numerous times by the Army as well as the other branches of the Military competing for Budget dollars.


This article is Bravo Sierra....


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Whatever their name, some branch of a nation's military must have a strike force. A FORCE, not just a "team". In centuries past, such forces had to be delivered via sailing ships. In the current era of humankind, such forces can be inserted via aircraft, thus the "airborne" divisions.

It's like in boxing. One can wear down the opponent over time or one can see an opening, then SLAM the opponent so hard that he defecates his eyes.

I've read that a corps is composed of multiple divisions. I know nothing about the size of the Marines, I'd have to go look it up.

We have helicopter-carriers / assault ships. Seen one from the docks. Holy crap was that thing enormous!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp-class_amphibious_assault_ship

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=U.S.+Marine+Corps+assault+ship&atb=v140-1&iax=images&ia=images
.

 

Good morning Watcherchris,

The problem is the - cost - of the LHA and LHD ships the Marines use. They are expensive to build, maintain and operate - and lightly armed compared to the anticipated threats.

Getting near a shore is dangerous.

Going ashore past ~ 50 miles (various specific factors must be adjusted for) requires what was traditionally called " Corps Support". This support is missing from current USMC arrangements. Actually, also missing from US Army arrangements. It's one reason the US military is leaving subSahara Africa and that Africa Command was closed with absorbation by US forces Europe.

It is a current matter of debate regarding USMC giving good value to the overall expeditionary force programs. A major highlight is the F-35 B model STOL Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. The range is limited and thus means they won't be on CVNs if the big boat is to stay out of enemy shore range.

Max;

The major issue has little to do with the individual who is a Marine. The USMC does have a much better program to recruit and field warriors. The issue is that the Marine is judged for value when the base costs (Think of Quantico, Camp Lejeune, New River, SC) and gear (Think of F35 STOL acft, Osprey tilt-rotor, the naval vessels used.)

Much of the current US Army uniformed force is really disguised unemployment.

...

My poor drafting above requires me to add:

LHA = Amphib land ship. It's a mini-aircraft carrier with a bunch of helicopters of various models, and loads of Marines.

LHD = Dock landing ship. It's built to allow for landing craft to leave this ship and move to shore with Marines.

CVN = Aircraft carrier w/ nuclear propulsion.

 

Pragmatist...

These ships are run by the navy and in the Navy budget..

This statement is now applicable to all the military services.

The Apartment manager I was seeing told me that she has been constantly astonished by the number of women in the military of all branches looking for apartments and who have children and drawing financial allotments from various men.
This quickly becomes a subsidy...and these women will not be readily available for military deployment.

At one time this became a very acute and noticeable problem with women in Navy Deployments in going out to sea..until the Navy took steps to curb this behavior of getting pregnant to avoid going to sea.

This is something in behaviors avoided in the public knowledge. It became a big problem with the Navy....but happens in all the branches of the Military...a huge social program....a subsidy eating away at military budgets..

Gulf War 1 &2 caught many in the Military Jobs/Subsidy programs short.

They never expected to be called up and go to war....to earn their monies.

These are all aspects of what is going on out here socially..which will never be brought out to the general public for their knowledge.


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Good morning Watcherchris,

The USMC boats they use are still from the Defense Department's budget. Some are Army boats; believe LACV-10 type landing craft used by USMC (some at Fort Story next to Amphib Base, Little Creek, Va Beach; others at Ft Eustis, W'burg). The Army boats also from the DOD budget - and all these boats cannot penetrate enemy missiles used today.

The Defense budget is a combination of Fed Reserve System's foreign borrowings concurrent with Fed defacto inflating the money paid to the Defense contractors. Some say this system is already in collapse; others say just the final decay.

The expanded view of above can be seen - it takes some "looking" - in the new Space Force Trump created. NASA, the civilian agency was a spinoff from USAF to comply with international laws and international relations. To avoid militarizing space, NASA was created to their efforts were effectively seen as civilian matters. Trump just started to end the charade with the Space Force, a streamlined organization without bases throughout the fruited plain that are just too expensive to continue running.

Question: Did women ever become crew members on any of the submarines and go to sea ?

What must be added to this discussion is the use of Defense combat contractors. This effectively closes down VA. What these combat contractors do that generates wounds/related is not "service connected" because these guys are not in the military.

Erik Prince, formerly of Virginia Beach, Duck, North Carolina, Moyock, N.C., now of Loudoun County, Northern Virginia Autonomous Oblast, started with his Blackwater Corp with later name change to "Xi". He now has ~ 30 corporations with interlocking directorates holding contracts from agencies besides DOD. Some of the contracts are with foreign companies and foreign governments. Recently they were in Haiti helping with emergency medical responder efforts. They provided security.

 

Pragmatist,

Yes..I am aware that the Army runs a small fleet..but not in the LHA and LHD class...these larger ships come under the Navy Budget..

Yes it is all out of the DOD budget but my point was that these LHA and LHD ships fall under the Navy Budget.

My point still stands...the Army takes much longer to get moving than does the Marines.

And I still stand by what I previously stated....in that the new Space Force is going to eat up budgets big time....from all the branches of the military.

I suspect that once again the various military branches are already competing for budget.

But once again....the Army takes longer to get anywhere in the world with all their gear and people...


As to women on submarines...I think this move is underway..mostly on the large boomer boats.....not yet on the fast attacks.


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Good afternoon Watcherchris,

My point is that more than 1 section of the Defense budget is stressed in vain for amphib boats, whether a helo from a LHA or a LACV-10. All these boats are about useless against a protected shore and coastal area.

Both Marines and Army cannot serve for expeditionary forces, less the minor events that get published. Only those ALREADY present and organized can have any value. That's why I mentioned "contractors" not necessarily on a DOD contract.

The Space Force could indeed absorb much unneeded funds. Still, this is a risk that is well worth taking because the "system" was already a sponge for $$$. It is well worth the risk and must also mention this new organization is in an environment where new bases are near impossible to develop. The money is not going to be allocated.

A MAJOR problem with the US military is that the organization(s) is a vestage of earlier times and has not been reformed, less minor exceptions.

Appreciate the info on women entering the sub crews on SSBNs.

 

If you want to fight a war you call on the Army. If you need someones but grabbed, rescued or their butt kicked you call on Special forces. Anything less than a full-blown war or more than a small strike you let the marines handle it. They are the hardcore ground pounders that you just need for some situations. They go in and handle it personally. The Army will pound a place and then go in but if there are a lot of civilians involved that may not be what you want to do. If you want a place protected and not blown up that is what a marine does. The Army is high tech these days and many are weekend warriors. We need all three so that we can respond to problems with the appropriate level of force.

 

Pragmatist,

Do you know about "Energy Maneuvering or sometimes called the OODA Loop" in both military and civilian applications.

The Marines have bought heavily into it.

John Boyd and his Energy Maneuvering principles.


Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite

 

Good afternoon Watcherchris,

Not familiar with the mentioned loop concept.

My themes still negate it.

My 2 themes are:

1. USG funding is coming from foreign sources and this is an existential danger - much more so than any military confrontation less a global war.

2. Combatants must be in place at the battle area and FEBA - Forward Edge of the Battle Area otherwise they cannot approach these foreign areas. Enemies and potential enemies have well developed militaries and support systems.

China's PLA uses the Mao "fish in the river". Their combatants are already positioned with "day jobs" until activated.

Israel's IDF has a "Depth Corps" using doctrines similiar to China's river fish.

I've mentioned at the Forum my view that we might see an adoption of a Janizary type of army. What we have now is dependent on foreign sources lending money to the US. The implications are tremendous.

 

Good afternoon Watcherchris,

I just looked up the OODA loop. It was in my attack cycle chain file folder.

The Colonel's loop concept is not relevant to an expeditionary force. All is known well before the expeditionary force deploys.

It's about the same in the international business world.

Some US jurisdictions use something similiar to the OODA loop but it doesn't work for 2 reasons:

It is not funded
and
the subdivision units - like a county or city - are too small. A large geographic area is needed for OODA. Don't anticipate counties to consolidate.

Not directly related but next to this folder here is my Martin Van Cleveld and William Lind stuff. The Israeli Van Cleveld can write about the successful programs IDF uses but there are strategic limitations such as the population being too small. William Lind used to be prominent in D.C. speaking circles. We Americans do not have even the basic requirements Lind addresses re doctrine. We are in decay.

Again, an expeditionary force sends out a flare well prior to anything happening. Our enemies would be waiting.

A closing comment; I believe it was an 8 hour flight Diego Garcia, BIOT to the eastern Med or Persian Gulf. The guys are tired well prior to arriving - and they must land at a secure area. Our enemies love these arrangements.

 

if you remove the marines or any of the military branches you might as well cut your nutz off and hand them to the enemy i say....JMO

 

Good morning Wally,

The national issue is not the removal of the Marines but rather the disestablishment of their relatively large organizational infrastructure and large staffs. A favorite illustration of mine is at North Carolina. The Army's Ft Bragg and the USMC's Camp Lejeune are next to each other - almost. ... and there are some satellite bases. At one time this arrangement was needed to ensure military insurrections could be prevented. This has changed.

We see an already similiar situation successfully working with the SEALS. The SEALS were/are USN (actually now part of DOD's SOC). The SEALS are actually doing land commando assignments but on different budgets.

It's about the $$$ and not the end of USMC recruiting as it's modification requires.

Quantico, Virginia is a little different but same principle applies. MCB Quantico had 2 functions: a base for Marines and also America's security force for the President. The view getting more support is that the Quantico location hurts the efforts more so than helps. The argument is that an important military facility with its airfield 7 (seven)
feet above sea level in this day of hurricanes and other adverse weather represents poor arrangements.

Nowadays no single organization can accomplish these types of assignments.

This is why these national political views are getting into the public discussions and arguments.

 

Pragmatist,

My point in this is not so much the OODA loop but the Energy Maneuvering part. The OODA loop is one aspect of what came out of the studies in Energy Maneuvering.

Energy Maneuvering is what was applied in The Vietnam Operation BOLO where in some 7 Mig 21 s were shot down in one mission. Six out of the 7 Mig 21s were shot down using an Energy Maneuvering technique taught to Everret Raspberry by John Boyd...and Everret Raspberry taught this Energy Maneuvering technique to the other pilots in the squadron.

Pilots knew that our F 4 Phantoms could not turn with the Migs...the Migs could turn much tighter....both the Mig 17 and the Mig 21. You don't get in a turning fight with a MIg 17 or a Mig 21 with a Phantom.

What Boyd taught Everett Raspberry to do in such an turning fight was to do an outside roll in the turn and then come back in on their tail and achieve missile lock. The outside turn/roll properly done would put one in perfect missile lock position but was contrary to conventional maneuvering thinking.

How to maneuver...gain energy ..bleed off and then gain/re gain energy in a dog fight.



This ....Boyd eventually began to realize applied also to ground fighting....troops maneuvering in the field.

What Boyd taught ...and the Marines in particular adopted it long before the other branches of the Military....was do not go "pee diddle diddle ...right up the middle.." Not against the enemies strong point...

Instead go straight for the objective....maneuver..don't get bogged down...go for the objective. Let the air power and or artillery take care of the strong points..

This Energy Maneuvering technique was tried out on a small scale in the Grenada Invasion...and further refined in the 1st Gulf War.

In many instances this worked very very well...our troops moved so fast the enemy often could not break contact fast enough....they were not allowed to break contact.....our people moved so fast...

The Army in a number of instances messed up and stopped to regroup...lost the impetus...momentum.

Granted now ..GPS made a huge difference not only in the ability to move troops and machines so fast..but also and just as important ..the supplies..gas...mail....etc etc..

The Marines have learned not to go right up the middle at the strongest defended points...This is what John Boyd taught the and the irony of the whole thing is that Boyd was an Air Force Pilot..and still the Marines came to respect what he taught because they knew that they were often the first ones in on such events.
This went hugely against the dogma of inter service rivalry.

Boyd's photo can often be seen on Marine bases next to famous Marines in the line up.

Don't go "Pee Diddle Diddle ..right up the Middle." Go for the objective..and don't get bogged down..


This type of maneuvering technique is one reason both Gulf Wars took place so rapidly...don't get bogged down.

To my limited knowledge what bogged down our troops per se...was lack of sleep..they were moving so fast and so often..
Sleep and rest became a premium commodity for many of our troops in the field.....they moved so fast..rapidly.

And the Marines are a small group compared to the rest of the Military...and well suited to this technique..


That was my point about Energy Maneuvering ....and the Marines.


Thanks,
Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.

 

Good afternoon Watcherchris,

Understand.

The - strategic - problem is that the US cannot send expeditionary forces from the US and penetrate foreign areas. We are too far in decay to even reach the Colonel's maneuver warfare.

 

It isn't the same now but when I was young a LOT of young men were drafted and sent to fight for the freedom of the South Vietnamese. I almost enlisted in the Marines for one simple reason. In the Army, you were mixed in with people that did NOT want to be there. One thing about the marines at that time was that if you enlisted in the marines you at least knew that everyone serving with you was there by choice. They might be stupid but they were not likely to change their minds and flake out.

LOL, I was on my way to Houston to enlist when my 56 Chevy swallowed a valve. Instead of enlisting I came home and rebuilt my motor. The next year they did the lottery and my number was 256 so baring a world war I was not going to be drafted. the two guys that I was going to enlist with went on. One went to Vietnam and died and the other busted out of basic training because of a physical problem.

If we are not having a Police action" The Army offers a Young man a lot of possible trades to learn. If I am going to war though. I still think I would go Marines. Navy wouldn't work for me. I get seasick on a ferry! The airforce might have worked. I am very mechanically inclined and have worked on a little of everything.

 

I tend towards agreeing with this in that in our future ...the only army which is going to increase in number is the welfare rolls..and very possibly and violently so.

Watcherchris
Not an Ishmaelite.