What to use for future trade?

Discussion in 'Essential Items' started by TJames13, Jun 13, 2016.

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  1. TJames13

    TJames13 New Member
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    I was talking to my mother-in-law about my interest in gathering supplies to survive in case of a large scale disaster. Initially we discussed the regular, food, water, medicine stuff but eventually she turned the conversation to items to stock with the intention of using them for trade. Her primary recommendation was coffee, what do you guys collect for trading.
     
  2. Arboreal

    Arboreal Active Member
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    Cigarettes are proven replacement for money, they actually function in its place in environments like prisons or armies, they're easy to store - just don't let them get wet. I've been told their 'taste' degrades after several years, but nicotine doesn't and since smokers are actually addicts, they will still put value on it. Canned food and salt can keep their exchange value too. Finally, medicines and ammunition will be highly valuable, but presumably you'd rather keep all their supply for yourself.
     
  3. Vladimir Logos

    Vladimir Logos New Member
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    In prehistoric times seashells and pretty stones were used as a means of exchange. Gold and other rare metals later took over in large empires, but smaller bands of hunter gatherers used pretty things as money. Sumerians used barley seeds at first, but later abandoned that practice as fungii and insects could destroy the supplies. Anything that is available in large quantities (but not exactly as abundant as sand XD), could serve as a means of exchance. Different groups of people just need to agree on it and some sort of authority give its blessing in order to inspire trust. I reckon that we would value metal and plastics as they are useful and somewhat abundant in urban areas. Who would become an authority in case of a large scale disaster, I don't know, but we overestimate the importance of road warriors and scavengers in such times (influence of motion pictures, of course). Mere brutes can not develop functional trade and can not thus progress through generations. A cooperative social group would overcome them withing a couple of decades as it would be able to sustain its population growth and nurture different classes of specialists (scientists, engineers, traders, trained warriors etc.).
     
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  4. Damorale

    Damorale Active Member
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    I wouldn't collect anything for trading, as I would avoid contact with strangers as far as possible. The only time you might need to trade with someone is if they have something that you don't have, and the goal for me would be to become 100% self sufficient and never need anything from other people as I can get/make it for myself. So when it comes to storing things to survive the immediate aftermath of an apocalyptic event, that's what I focus on. But my absolute priority is putting myself in the best possible position to be able to find, forage and create everything I need for survival in our current society, and in the event of a societal collapse/natural disaster.
     
  5. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    If you can afford to purchase goods for trade, then you can afford to purchase the goods you need so you don't have to trade. What is the point in trading?
    Keith.
     
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  6. Arboreal

    Arboreal Active Member
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    @Keith H. but how will you purchase anything post-disaster without engaging in trade of some sort?
     
  7. explorerx7

    explorerx7 Expert Member
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    Many people who live off the grid trade things like meat, fish, labor, lumber and even electricity generated from solar power if their neighbor is close enough. There is this spirit of cooperation that when one has more that enough of something they would share with others for something that they require in return. That's what the essence of trading is all about I believe.
     
  8. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Like I already said, if you can afford to purchase trade goods pre shtf, you can afford to purchase all you need before it all hits the fan. Why would you spend money pre shtf purchasing goods you don't need just so you can trade them post shtf???!!! Makes no sense to me. On top of this trading is DANGEROUS! Where will you make this trade? At your home? In the bush? What security do you have to make sure they don't just kill you & take what you have?
    No, sorry, does not seem like a sensible thing to do.
    Keith.
     
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  9. cluckeyo

    cluckeyo Well-Known Member
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    I like the idea of keeping an inventory of small, useful tools. They might come in handy for bartering. I think canned goods would be very good, also. Above all I think it would be important to develop so useful sklls that can used for trade. Such as the ability to build something, or fix things that break.
     
  10. Arkane

    Arkane Master Survivalist
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    No one or no group can possible have everything they might need!
    So stocking stuff specifically to trade is dumb!
    Having an excess of something you use and you then use that to trade is not.
    I plan on not having to trade, but I also plan on being able to trade if I need to!
    I have over 1,200 box's of matches as backup to my backup fire starting kits!
    As I have a big box of bic lighters, a s/s fire piston, flint and steel, zippo's and a few chemical means
    I doubt I will ever use them!
    I keep them because I got them!
     
  11. John Snort

    John Snort Well-Known Member
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    I think you could learn a skill that you could trade for things you need. There are lots of things people will need fixed post-apocalypse and as there won't be many people who've got the skills you'll be very much in demand and can get lots of things for the work you do without having to take unnecessary risks.
     
  12. tb65

    tb65 Active Member
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    I think one good thing to stock is lighters. Think about it people need fire and nothing is more appealing then a lighter in a survival situation. This is really only possible if you don't smoke. You can buy packs of lighters and use them to trade for tea or coffee, maybe even food. I would use a fire starter to start my fires tho.
     
  13. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    trading wont be immediate, post SHTF +day 1, it'll be months, maybe years down the line, maybe its not even safe?
    the chances are the mortality rate is so high you'll never see another person much less trade with them.
    if you want stuff post SHTF then like Keith says get it before and stash it. start now by making a list.
     
  14. Arboreal

    Arboreal Active Member
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    That's a good point, but take into account that post shtf anarchy will not last forever. Once the society starts rebuilding somehow, we will likely have to interact with other people again anyway, and besides, even the best prepared supply will likely not last for a decade.

    There's also the fact that prices are going to be different after disaster than now. Yes, it might seem stupid to stock trade goods instead of food, medicines etc. but 10 $ worth of Excheangeable garbage will likely buy you much more than equivalent of 10$ in food or other useful goods in the post-post-disaster situation. Of course, our priority in preparations done now should be still immediate survival, but addign a basket of trade goods to our stock now might be a worthy addition.
     
  15. Toast

    Toast New Member
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    If the idea is bartering, then I think you just collect as many useful items as you possibly can. Stock up on as much food, as much water, as many resources and first aid, just anything you can really. If people come to you for things often, that's how you gain power. Having power in a disaster situation could lead to great things for yourself. Hopefully we develop another similar currency system instead though, similar to the bottle-cap system from Fallout. Being able to trade with people for currency is probably way easier than collecting a stockpile of resources and keeping it safe
     
  16. glreese

    glreese Member
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    Having a lot of things that other people want after a disaster may not be the safest thing. Especially not while everyone is still in shock. I think it is far more important to stock up on supplies so you won't have to trade. Besides that, if you really want to use something to trade I would suggest gold and silver. Those things have maintained their value since the beginning of time.
     
  17. ToTang45

    ToTang45 Expert Member
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    Because your supplies will only last so long, and when the SHTF it will be for an undetermined amount of time before you get back on your feet?
    Along with that there's also the prospect of needing to make good with someone else or another group/tribe in the post SHTF world. These items could be given as offerings or gifts to smooth over relations without affecting your tribes supply.

    Plenty of reasons.
    I'd say coffee is actually quite a good one, seeing as though all smokers will have gone cold turkey a long time before any trade is necessary.
     
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  18. joshposh

    joshposh Expert Member
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    Coffee as you have already mentioned and containers of tobacco. Tobacco and cigarettes will be a hot commodity when things turn for the worst. Sure you still need the first 3 but tobacco will be something that will replace monetary note. They already come in little and big containers.
     
  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    if someone is going to exist ONLY on their stores post SHTF, then they haven't learned the most basic lesson about prepping, prepping is about so much more than just food stores.
     
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  20. DaBozzLady

    DaBozzLady Member
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    I totally agree but as we all know, there will be some that won't be prepared. It leads to trust. Other people in a post-apoc world will definitely be seen as a threat. But at some point if we want to get out of that state and build on what we have, we will have to trust and believe that they want to survive too. By this point, you will know who you should invite to stay for dinner and who you will say "Sorry, there's no more room at the in" and treat them like you treat any other predator.

    However, if we are being practical and realistic, just as the SHTF, there's always the WTF moment or the "What if" moment. And for those, it's best to be slightly prepared than not. Bartering networks have been formed since the beginning of time and I doubt that will ever change. Not only will there be a need for people skilled by trade, but there will be a need for goods that can be listed as a priority. Some of these are water filtration systems, seeds, long shelf life food items, fresh produce, food producing animals, solar power, firearms/ammo and oil. This is only a short/brief list but again, it rounds back to prepping because all of these items are must haves. Considering they are also an essential to your everyday survival, they will definitely be worth something to those unprepared or those trying to survive in the after effects of an event as well.
     
  21. Bishop

    Bishop Expert Member
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    The oldest business

    SEX
     
  22. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    watch out for STD's.
     
  23. omegaman

    omegaman Expert Member
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    When I was in the army I saw something awful but true. Women are hard bargain. Any means of communication. Batteries. Water, food, medicine, recreational drugs and alcohol. Tobacco. Animals.
     
  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    A civilization is based on trade. This country and no country was ever built by lone wolf mountain men that hid from all other people. If this society goes toes up I don't plan on living the rest of my life hiding. My Grandkids will need things that I don't have. I'm not a Doctor for example and eventually people are going to need to gather or live in huts hiding until they die out. Like it or not a group of people can do a lot more things than one person can do. One man can't raise a barn. One man can't work a field and protect it at the same time. Unless you plan on living in furs or going butt naked at some point someone is going to have to make cloth again and that is not a one person sort of thing.

    I expect that within a year or two at the most after the "end of the world as we know it" people are going to start gatheriung again. It is what people always do. Homo-sapiens are pack or tribal creatures. Who are your kids going to marry if you stay hiding?? REAL survival will at first require you to hunker down and lay low for a little while but after that period the survivors will come back together. I know it sounds attractive to hide and not let anybody come close to you but that is just not the nature of the beast that is man.

    Survival is based on forethought. That means planning ahead so that when certain circumstances occur you are prepared for that. Unless you plan on hiding forever then you need to plan now for things that will make you more valuable to a group. That will be things and skills. You need to start now gathering both or you will be left out in the cold when things change again after the collapse has settled and a new society starts to form.

    Ammo, needles and sewing notions, fish hooks, pencils and paper, books both reference and fiction, Some booze but even better know how to build a still and make your own. Honey is good but bees and bee keeping will be a wonderful trade item. Can you imaging what a horse will be worth??? For you non-horse folks you need to understand that male horses are few and far in between. Unless you plan of breading them because they are in some way special you castrate male horses just as you so male calves. It will take decades to return horses to the kind of numbers that we would need to return to that sort of farming. Once again cattle will become oxen and do the heavy work. Leather makers and workers will be in great demand.

    Just trying to give y'all some things to think about.
     
  25. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I can see & understand other people's view on this, but I still say that trading post shtf is going to be dangerous. There is nothing to stop anyone killing you & taking what you have, & even if you have protection, people will now know who you are & a good idea of what you have. Tracking you if you are trading elsewhere will not be difficult. Laying an ambush will not be difficult. If you think these risks are worth taking, fine, but personally I would sooner spend the money on items that WE need to survive, rather than spend money on trade items.

    Trade used to be about getting what you wanted in exchange for items that you purchased cheaply. Think, who is going to trade you some vital item for other items that are not a priority?

    Now is the time to start thinking about what you will/would need, medical supplies is probably top of the list, sustainable equipment comes next along with the skills to use that minimum equipment to the best advantage. Water & food goes without saying. So what are you going to be trading for?
    Keith.
    003f81d2fa5789ac2a8231d540a70819.jpeg
    Winter Trade By Robert Griffing.
     
  26. Olpoop

    Olpoop New Member
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    I think that most trading to be needed post-shtf will be labor or knowledge.

    - You help me do this, I’ll help you do that.
    - You tell me how to make it, I’ll give you some of it.
    - You do this for me, I’ll do that for you.

    Not everyone can do everything without help, or without the knowledge of how to do it, or have the many skills required to do everything needed.

    CD in Oklahoma
     
  27. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    trading wont be safe for a long time post event, i'm talking years not months.
    better to gather all the stuff you might need NOW rather than expect to trade for them afterwards.
    if you cant get some items then either learn to repair /make them yourselves or learn to do without.
    post SHTF its skills and knowledge that will help us all survive not heaps and heaps of "stuff".
     
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  28. Olpoop

    Olpoop New Member
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    Following an event, I think most people will tend to try keeping the fact that they have some supplies stored as secret as possible from everyone else, especially basic survival supplies. It will just be part of an effort to protect our stuff.

    The reason I wouldn’t want to deal in survival commodities post-shtf, is that even if I were to meet in a neutral place, with say, a bag-full of BIC lighters that I’m offering for sale or trade, I think it would place a target on me with people not even interested in fire starters thinking “....if he stashed a bunch of lighters, then what else did he stash? He’s probably got a big stash of “X”, and I need some now!”. Once they know that I have any kind of stash, it may spur them to do what they can to find out where I have my stash and what I’ve got, and then come and try to get it however they can.

    It could be bad enough that many people already know that my wife and I have everything needed in the way of sewing supplies since we’ve been sewing for the public for several years. Hopefully, there won’t be too much pressure on us since sewing stuff doesn’t really have much to do with basic survival in a short term. Later on, our sewing stuff may have some value, but I think that our sewing abilities will have more and could become a trade item for us.

    CD in Oklahoma
     
  29. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    depends on the survival rate, if you can stitch clothes or skins then you may have a ready supply of customers, but whether it is safe to do so is another thing.
    I live in a very remote, smaller population area of the south west of the UK and following SHTF the population will be lower still so trading post event has never really been in my plans, make do with what I've got .
     
  30. Olpoop

    Olpoop New Member
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    If you can avoid people and hunker down, that’s probably a good plan. Preparing to be self-sustaining is good.

    I’m in a small rural farm town of about 4000. Most of the farmers live in town these days. Very few live out on the farms anymore because of convenience and lack of good well water. I don’t see many of them returning to the farm house in a bad situation. I think most will bug-in in town and work together to get through it.

    By living in a town, avoiding people completely will not be a choice, and I believe that cooperating with neighbors will be my best way of survival, especially considering my age and physical limitations. I’ll just have to recognize and avoid the bad guys. That will be the tough part.

    CD in Oklahoma
     
  31. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    I live on the very edge of a small rural market town-so small a lot of people call it a village, parish population half of what yours is.
    most people here are not farmers or even growers, they commute to another place for work, leaving early in the morning and coming back late at night, this place is like a ghost town during the day.
    once the power goes off and the stores are empty people will leave and not come back, even though its in the middle of the countryside most do not have food supplies stashed away, once the food in the house is gone so will they.
     
  32. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Any time I'm bored I go to one of my shops and start making things. One of my favorites that I describe in another post is basically a 1/2" X 3"plastic tube that I put all sorts of thing in and then melt the ends closed. Some have strike anywhere matches, a little piece of sand paper and some jute twine. Some are tiny little fishing kits. Some had needles and thread.

    I actually make a lot of things that may make trading material. My daughter crochets pot holders and little pouches with 550 paracord. I have a lot of seeds and just more tools and edged weapons than anyone can ever use. I LIKE making things. When a circular saw blade wears out it may become a few knives or my latest thing is what I call a brush saw. It is a saw blade sharpened and put on a hickory handle like a battle ax. It really does work well if clearing light brush and is a just terrifying looking weapon. I have them made with 10" blades, 7.25" blades and 5"5" blades. Hey, people are always throwing those away and I know a guy that sharpens saws that is happy for me to occasionally haul off the old worn out ones.

    Once things settle I'm going to open a lending library and have small trading things so I can get the things that I don't want to raise or grow for myself.
     
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  33. Fatduk

    Fatduk Active Member
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    Kotex , anything hygene related, cheep vodka use to stearalize or barter.
    I make fishing lures, reload, carve things. I have and use my grandparents cast iron , non power hand tools..


    I can butcher meat , it's not the prettiest cuts of meat , but nobody said it had to be pretty to eat. Been doing hogs , chickens ,beef , rabbits , squrells, deer for years.

    I usually do about 100# of deer jerky a year.
    Farmed when I was young, still garden.

    Work on vehicles if they are pre computer.
    I think I will be a asset for everyone.
     
  34. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Unless the apocalypse changes the nature of most of the people alive today ANYBODY willing to do hard physical work will be an asset. In the old days you could always find some kids to help you for a few bucks if you were looking for just grunt help. Those days are LONG GONE!! Now days you can't hire anyone to work if it even slightly involves breaking a sweat except Mexican illegal aliens. If they throw all of them out we are going to be in serious trouble!! SOMEBODY has to do the physical jobs and everyone can't be middle and upper management. I don't think this is going to change real fast even after the end of the world. All the wood burning will depend on people that can swing an ax and pull their end of a crosscut saw. Farming and even gardening is totally different without powered tillers, mowers, cultivators and tractors. We won't even have animals to work for us like they did a hundred years ago.
     
  35. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    most people these days have a sedentary lifestyle, they DO NOT know the meaning of hard manual labour, if they cant do it on a computer they wont do it.
    that's another reason why I think the mortality rate will be HUGE.
     
  36. Kootenay prepper

    Kootenay prepper Expert Member
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    Learning natural medicine then you have a endless supply of trading goods. People in pain will do anything in order to deal with the discomfort.
     
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  37. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I have always thought that trying to trade post shtf would be dangerous, on top of that, anything worth trading one would also need to keep. But your suggestion changes all that. Unlikely that anyone would want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. Medical supplies that you make yourself could well have a market, & if you have a permanent source of ingredients, you will never go without yourself.
    Good thought, well done.
    Keith.
     
  38. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Honey!! Keeping bees is actually a pretty easy low energy labor of love. The honey and the bee's wax will be a very practical trade item.

    Basically any of mankind's multitude of addictive vices will have a lot of trade value. Tobacco products, Alcohol, Caffeine, Cannabis, Opiates, Books, and maybe even Pornography may have great value when there is no more being easily and commercially made.

    Coffee and Tea are not going to be available for long in most places. There are other things that can provide for this need and you will need to know what they are and how to grow/gather and process them. Caffeine is a very useful product. There is some belief that part of the reason for the success of the Chinese and British Empires were in part because of their use of tea. The caffeine and the fact that the water is boiled made them healthier and more alert.
     
  39. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Random thoughts:
    Before trade, you must be a bad-@$$, or must be able to put together one or more armed folk who are members of your family or guys who've been your friend for years. I have sons, however I don't want to drag them into particularly dangerous situations. I could be a backup for one of my sons who lives in a rural area -- i.e. we could go there (he's got my best electric generator). He's got friends; I could arm them -- or should I say, better arm them. What people have in the way of firearms and ammo often needs to be supplemented.

    I've got a rototiller and could bust new gardens for folk. Got lots of garden tools. Can fix all manner of things. Gonna buy a welding machine for a son who is learning welding -- he can train us (he's crippled, but can get around-ish). Automobile mechanics will do well, especially if they can do machining work.

    If one were a machinist with a machine shop, you'd be in good stead, especially if you had friends who were practiced with firearms.

    Ammo is great for trade as will be scrap silver coins. Just don't pull this stuff out until you have backup who have no qualms about shooting people. Post-SHTF, small communities will go on doing much the same as they were pre-disaster -- it's just that they'll need help here and there. For instance, the local cops will need extra manpower, maybe more ammo. Cops need people to watch their families when they themselves are out patrolling the community's perimeter. Undesirables will be booted out of small communities rather quickly ... or they'll be shot if they make trouble. Small communities will very quickly turn to barter. Scrap silver coins and ammo would provide a small community a quick-fix monetary system. Screws, nails, and hardware items will be used as barter -- I've got quite a bit of this put back because I'll not use an entire box of nails and put the rest aside for future.

    Building water purifiers would put you in good stead with others.
    https://www.google.com/search?sourc...1j0i13i30k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1.0.uPpZR-d0hmQ



    Bulk activated charcoal can be found online
    https://www.superwater.com/ev969000...MIwZ7gpZi42AIVDBCBCh3jIg2TEAkYBiABEgLJw_D_BwE
     
  40. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Ok...I'm going to try this post again. I don't know what happened but a lot of stuff got added to the end of my last post and hence I deleted it and will try to repost.

    Ok..here we go...

    I have tried to stock up on a few things with barter in mind...medicines and such ...sewing needles and large quantities of thread in large spools.

    Here are some medicinal compounds on which I have stocked up albeit slowly over the years.

    I've had the oldest bottle over some 8 years now and never opened any of them.

    476f5718cc09b03cf2fe8c0ee8d0bb62.jpeg

    The problem comes in the form of two legged wildlife who have made no preps at all and look at other people like Prey.
    Then some of us will have to resort to something like this .41 Magnum. Two legged Ishmaelite wildlife.

    Did I tell some of you that I can admire four legged wildlife better than the two legged variety??

    476f5718cc09b03cf2fe8c0ee8d0bb62.jpeg

    Or this .308 Enfield....
    476f5718cc09b03cf2fe8c0ee8d0bb62.jpeg

    That is not all .308 Winchester brass in that homemade brass catcher. The stainless barrel sticking out of the other side of the Brass catcher is a heavy stainless barrel of an AR platform.

    I greatly dislike two legged wildlife..male or female both ...even unparented children at times. In my mind I have that photo of the guy wading down the street after Hurricane Katrina with a basket full of Heinekins. That is as far as his thinking process can digest. Wildlife.

    Well...Im sure some of you get the idea.

    Bartering is fine....but be cautious about with whom and when and where you choose to barter. None of us is an island.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  41. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    I was going to say something about putting back high proof whiskeys, specifically 151 proof rum! Can't get Everclear in 195 proof anymore.

    I am a big fan of Enfields. I like the .303 cartridge. I like the cock on opening action. I read that these Ishapore 2A1 rifles in 7.62 NATO will handle the NATO loadings, but not civilian .308 ammo.

    "Although the 7.62mm NATO and commercial .308 Winchester ammunition are physically interchangeable, these weapons were not designed for use with higher pressure commercial .308 Winchester ammunition."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishapore_2A1_rifle

    I've read of folk getting by with shooting .308 commercial ammo in these for a long time. Some folk have had head-spacing issues and others report some case-head separations. 7.62 NATO goes 50,000 c.u.p. pressure-wise. The .308 in commercial loadings can go 62,000 c.u.p. depending on manufacturer and how warm they load their particular products.

    One may wish to acquire a "no-go" gauge and keep testing the rifle to make sure it is not getting set back by too much pressure.
     
  42. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Basically bartering after TEOTWAWKI will be a lot different than most of you might be thinking. For one thing unlike now there won't be any "advertising" and only a crazy fool will put up signs leading people to their homes. When it comes to a world where people have to walk most anyplace that they want to go the people that you will be bartering with will be your neighbors and friends and they already know where you are.

    That doesn't mean that they are necessarily all going to be trustworthy but you will already know them whether that is good or bad. The thing is bartering isn't the same as opening a store. Everyone will have different resources and skill sets and trading will be sort of a necessity. Money will have little meaning so if there is something that you need that you don't have you will need to barter for it. Since you won't know in advance what their needs will be you need a pretty wide selection of trade goods.

    Basically we are not talking about going into business when we talk about bartering. Think of it like this, I carry a lot of cash around with me most of the time. that doesn't mean that I am going to try and be a bank and it also isn't there because I do a lot of my business in cash. I carry it because sometimes cash is the lubricant that opens doors that otherwise would remain closed. It is amazing the power of cash over the minds of people. I have bought a lot of things at amazing prices because after watching me count out a pile of money in cash they go weak when I start picking it back up and take a price that would never be accepted in check or credit card form.

    When bartering having the right currency is critical. You will need a variety of things and knowledge on how to read people and their wants and needs. I am a little like the old time horse traders and like bartering a lot. I look at money in cash form as just another tool to use in bartering and trading. It isn't always the best bait.
     
  43. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I verily like the Enfield Rifle with one exception...it is a full battle type rifle...and is thus heavy. I chose the .308 simply because of logistics. The .308 is available all across this nation.
    Well......there is one other thing for which military rifles are famous...and that is a hard butt plate. She has a stout recoil in .308 calibration.

    Agree about how hot much of the commercial ammo is in that calibration. I tend towards rolling my own ammunition in a multitude of calibers....and don't particularly like to load hot for a host of reasons ..one of which you aptly described.

    What I have done as per the weight of the Enfield is to purchase a bolt action Mossberg Patrol rifle in the same .308 calibration. A much lighter rifle..even with glass mounted.
    But outside of the weight..there is nothing wrong with how the Enfield shoots. And she can cycle faster than my Mossberg. I did not realize this about the Enfield until I saw for myself the difference in how the bolts were made. That realization made it quite clear as to why the Enfield could cycle so rapidly.
    The Enfield also has a long history....and I like history. I should like to get the bayonet for it at some time .....just to have that other piece of history for it as I do with my 1903 Springfield and the American long bayonet of that era.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
  44. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The carbine is a great weapon. That is one of the reasons I like lever action guns so much. Plenty of power without the weight. Ther 30-30 has plenty of stopping power but is lacking in the longer distances. For those I have a 99 Savage in 300 Savage which is basically ballistically similar to the 308. Then I have a Winchester trapper in 357 mag. While that is a pistol caliber it is actually nonetheless almost three times as powerful as a 5.56 nato round in ranges 100 yards and under. I am considering cutting down and sporterizing a Nagant. IO think with a little work it could be made into a nice scout rifle. Nylon stock, shorten and recrown the barrel, replace the front sight and then bend the bolt to make it more friendly. In general I'm not sold on scopes for battle work. They are great for sniper work but won't take the beating that you will give a rifle in battle.
     
  45. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    I was at first looking for Bacardi 151 in the small airline bottles. It took me some time to realize that the Liquor stores around here do not sell it in that small airline bottles. Bacardi 151 is to high an octane level to carry on airlines due to it's flammability level. The smallest size I could get is a pint bottle of which I have purchased two with plans to get two more. No hurry in this.

    I do not know how many of them were made TexDanm...but is not the Mosen Nagant made in a carbine version??
    I've heard others mention making a scout rifle out of a Mosen Nagant.
    It certainly has potential behind that 7.62 x 54mm cartridge.

    I too am not totally sold on scopes and hence like to keep iron sights on my tools.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
  46. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I believe they did make some shorter rifles but those would be of more interest to collectors where I got mine for about a hundred bucks. It is visually sort of used but the bore is clean and the action is strong. In 1999 one of my preps was a couple of cases of half pints of cheap whisky. I kept it for a couple of weeks and then gave it back to the liquor store in the unopened box and got my money back. The owner knew what I was doing and agreed that it was a good idea. Now I'm thinking about buying some shine in gallons. It is almost pure 190 proof and after the fact could be cut with branch water and rebottled for sale or trade.
     
  47. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/russian-m44-carbine.asp
    d3723e5f6ea1f06aa0ce6cee33e38cd7.jpeg


    "In 1938 a carbine was adopted as the "7,62 mm Carbine, Model of the Year 1938", commonly known as the M38 in the US, but did not go into production until 1939. It is essentially a shorter version of the M91/30 and was built at Izhevsk until 1945."
    http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM38.htm
    d3723e5f6ea1f06aa0ce6cee33e38cd7.jpeg

    These 7.62 x 54R carbines kick like a mule, I've owned some. If you get one with a bolt that sticks, there is a cure -- I've polished chambers on two or three and this freed-up the bolt, but you gotta be careful in how you do this. You can find instructions on the web; use a polish like Flitz and a big patch over a 20 ga shotgun brush. Polish the chamber just a little bit then STOP! before damaging the chamber. I take the furniture off the forend and top of barrel, then free-float the barrel. Bevel what's left of the forend into a style you find attractive. I turned one M44 into a tack driver -- I was totally shocked.

    Some Chinese ammo in 7.62 x 54R is actually machine-gun ammo. Pull the bullet & look at the powder. It's powder alright ... actually it is dust ... goes off like a freaking bomb!
     
  48. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Yeah...Olde Geezer...I expect it does kick like a mule in the carbine version. I 've seen numerous Mosen Nagant's at the gun club ...but all of them have been full length versions. I am thinking that not that many carbine versions were made compared to the full length versions.

    I sat down and just observed two fellows sighting in their Nagants two lanes over from me and watched their targets in my spotting scope. They were using iron sights at 100 yards and to my surprise these three rifles they were sighting in shot very accurately at 100 yards with iron sights.

    Watching these two fellows...taught me to respect the Mosen Nagant for it's potential in the right hands.

    Looking in my Hornady Reloading manual...this calibration seems to be right there in potential next to the 8mm x 57, the .308, the 30.06 and such. A lot of potential in that cartridge...and the Mosen Nagant rifle seems to be well suited for this 7.62 x54mm calibration and for the reloader...uses much of the same powder and bullet selections as the othere 30 calibers listed.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
  49. watcherchris

    watcherchris Expert Member
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    Hey TexDanm,

    You got me to thinking about your 300 Savage rifle. If I recall the history of the Savage lever guns...this calibration became very very popular in the Savage made rifles though it was made in other calibrations.

    I have only seen a handful of Savage lever rifles at gun shows and do not remember the particular calibers sold back then.

    But what your post caused me to do is look up the reloading tables for 300 Savage and eventually my eyes drifted to the dimensions given for the Brass case itself.

    This is not a common caliber sold in most stores...but there seem to be people out here who like this rifle....and my impression, by the scarcity of them at gun shows...is that people who have and like them tend to hang on to these firearms.

    Now I have seen one bag of brass for them recently at Bass Pro Shops/Outdoor World and it is a bit pricey.

    This got me to studying the brass casing dimensions for this caliber ..in my latest Hornday reloading book.
    The dimensions are very close to the .308 or the .243 case.

    And Of course in my mind...the way and manner my mind works...the question soon arose....Could I fashion or resize my own .300 Savage cases from .308 or .243 brass.
    I have fashioned my own .308 cases from 30.06 brass and also fashioned .243 brass from .308 brass. I've also fashioned or resized 7.7mm Japanese Arisaka brass from .30.06 brass.

    A lot of this is just for curiosity sake....to see and know if it can be done in an ammunition pinch...real or manufactured.

    Now...you've done it TexDanm.....you have my nose to the ground about this 300 Savage calibration.
    You have created a Monster!!!!


    Now when I go to the next gun show...my gears will be more easily spun up....with this new information and idea about the Savage rifle in this caliber.
    This rifle...just like many of the 30 calibers has a wide selection of bullet availabilities...thus further expanding it's potential.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
     
  50. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The biggest single difference between the 300 savage and the 308 is the shoulder angle. The angle on the Savage is a lot steeper and this makes it a little bit of a pain in the butt when reloading sometimes. It it wasn't for the 3sintimental value I would think about recutting the chamber to make it a 308.

    The thing about the Savage is that it has a better lock up than the winchester and in the case of mine it has a rotary magazine. The later models went to a box magazine. This means that you can load pointed bullets and so the long distance ballistics is better than the flat nose 30-30. It is really funny how those 5 years difference in introduction made such a difference in design. The savage looks like a modern style rifle where the winchester hung onto older design profiles. It has no exposed hammer and the stock shape is not as straight. Not having an ammo tube suspended under the barrel gives it a "feel" more like a blt action with the weight near the trigger hand.

    I think that the difference was in that the 30-30 was the first introduced with smokeless powder and so used the rimmed winchester case that they had always used. The 5 years between 94 and 99 allowed the improvements in design of the rifle and case to allow the advantages of smokeless powder to be more fully taken advantage of.

    Black powder explodes and the maximum pressure is in the first part of the action where smokeless powder burns and the pressure grows as the powder burns. This allowed higher velocity from a smaller case with the only downside was the need for a stronger action.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
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