Wolves Keep The Deer Strong

Discussion in 'The Hangout' started by arctic bill, Feb 15, 2022.

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  1. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    the Cree Indians have a saying that the wolves keep the deer strong. Canada hosts the world's largest wolf population, with more than 50,000 wolves. How much do the Canadian Deer weigh? ?? Average weight is around 250 pounds, some weighing as much as 300 pounds.
    In contrast
    In the usa Males: 150 pounds (average); heavier weights are not uncommon; females: average 110 pounds.
    Why , as i said the wolves keep the deer strong, they do not take the biggest, strongest.
    No they take the weak, small, injured.
    Hunters however take the biggest, strongest those with the biggest rack.
    I knew a hunter from upstate that would come up north to my place and he was amazed at the size of Canadian deer.
    Gray wolves once roamed the entire North American continent, from the scrubby deserts of Mexico to the boreal forests of Alaska. But by the 1950s decades of overhunting and habitat loss had nearly extirpated the species in the contiguous United States. In a remarkable conservation success story, the 1973 Endangered Species Act (ESA) helped push the number back up to about 7,500 gray wolves in the lower 48 states as of 2020
    now
    The U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife deemed gray wolves’ recovery so successful that it fully “delisted” the canids from the ESA starting on January 4, 2021. This removed them from federal protection and left management of the species up to individual states. Michigan and Minnesota are in the early stages of planning potential hunts in 2022. Meanwhile Montana and Idaho, whose wolf populations have been delisted since 2011, have loosened restrictions:
    In April Montana legalized the use of snares to capture wolves, and in May Idaho passed a law allowing the cull of 90% of the state’s population by nearly all means, including shooting from helicopters or ATVs.
    I think this is wrong those blaming the decrease in elk and deer population do not know the facts . by allowing the small and weak to profligate you are weakening the wild dear and elk populations.
     
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  2. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    bump
     
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  3. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    there is a certain logic in that saying. and not just deer.
     
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  4. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Trophy hunting impresses me as a decidedly immature behaviour to me. Killing bears because it makes somebody feel macho is horribly repugnant to my mind.

    Having said this, many trophy bucks are at the end of their reproductive years. The larger antler racks belong to the oldest bucks. Young bucks attempt to take-on such old bucks in an attempt to get their does. Eventually the young bucks win. Same with lions. Young male lions will sometimes form pairs to take-out an old lion and split the females between them ... or turn on each other.

    To control deer populations, does must be hunted. Many states allow more does to be taken during archery seasons.
    .
     
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  5. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    "Sport fishing" is another one that gets me, I dont want to catch (or hunt) something just for "sport", hunting and fishing is for FOOD nothing else.
     
  6. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    Nothing wrong with sport fishing at all.I fish at least once a week,and I am damned good at it.It’s rare that I don’t catch,very rare. Most times I catch a lot of fish,as I understand the water,the weather,the season etc. If I had to catch to eat ,I could do so with absolute confidence in my ability. The same goes for shooting.I enjoy clay pigeon ( skeet) and it keeps my eye in with the gun. Both activities I enjoy immensely, and they mean I know what I am doing if the need arises to hunt and fish for food.

    Many survivalists and Preppers have a vague idea that when SHTF, they will hunt or catch fish.Up until that point they have never done either, and have silly little ‘survival fishing kits’ or a few wire snares ,to ‘gather food’. All their plans are theoretical,not practical.
     
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  7. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    I have fished most of my childhood and adult life, sport fishing has nothing to do with sport, catching the same fish and releasing it over and over again is damn cruel on the fish, if I go fishing its to catch fish to eat, not to play with it.
     
  8. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    So you go fishing regularly then? Freshwater or sea?
     
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  9. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    Fishing or hunting for whatever reason after SHTF , preppers need to consider getting to their destination to do so if fuel for a motorized vehicle is no longer a option . Fuel for a boat motor could easily not be available . As of today the U.S. government is warning citizens of a possible cyber attack and satellite jamming attack by Russia could happen at any moment . Thus by this evening fuel pumps for those motors may be a thing of the past . I am just pointing out a huge flaw in some folks envisioned survival plan .
     
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  10. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    I live right on top of my fishing ,I am pleased to say. A vehicle is not vital. As I said earlier,I love my fishing,it’s great fun and I am good at it. If it means I can stay fed if need be,so much the better! Life is for living,you can’t live in a constant state of Red Alert ,every activity having to be survival related.
     
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  11. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    sea fishing.
     
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  12. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    Beach or boat?
     
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  13. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    nobody lives in a state of Red Alert, nothing wrong with being watchful, not every activity is survival related but it can be survival enhanced.
     
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  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    have done both but its mostly from shore, not strictly beach more pier or rocks. not exactly got sandy beaches around Devon .
     
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  15. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    Which is why sport fishing is good.
     
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  16. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    sorry, I still cant agree with you there. just my opinion.
     
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  17. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    And my opinion is that practice makes perfect. I don’t just talk about it,I do it.
     
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  18. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    Staying on alert and in a constant survival mode is just my nature . Prepping and survival has been sort of like a hobby that I enjoy . I am not always on red alert . Sometimes it may be only yellow alert . --- I am the guy that watches satellites at night wondering if it is a foreign adversary's E.M.P. satellite or is that plane flying overhead spying on me . On occasion night time guard duty is conducted .Paranoid I suppose I am . A sort of family joke around here that I am still looking for Charlie .
     
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  19. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    I not only talk about it, I do it too, are you implying otherwise?
     
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  20. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    Yes I am.When did you last fish?
     
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  21. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    I keep a watching brief, plans are all in place if and when TSHTF.
     
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  22. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    now your getting personal. I'm not putting personal info on an open forum.
     
  23. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    It’s a straight question.I don’t consider asking when you last went fishing to be up there with identity theft lol!
    Your reluctance to answer speaks volumes
     
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  24. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    next question will be where! and what I caught. I'm not going there.
     
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  25. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    it is the absolute way to relax and calm down, nothing like fishing to make everything good again . You do not even need to catch anything , just being on the water and quiet refreshes you soul.
     
  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    When a boy, I fished with my maternal grandfather. If we caught it, we ate it.

    Same with hunting. If we shot it, we ate it.

    My grandpap was raised way past poor. He was a subsistence hunter up in the mountains. That is the only thing I knew my people to do. As a little boy, I wasn't able to understand trophy hunting. Still don't. If you saw a deer's head on the wall, you knew the rest of it had been eaten. I knew a grand total of one persons among my kin who trophy hunted.

    Isn't there a certain sacredness to hunting?! All Indian tribes said prayers before the hunt and after the hunt. One must have a deep humility for where one stands in nature. Wasting food, or harming animals without purpose, is an insult to The Creator.

    And, "what goes around, comes around."
    .
     
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  27. paul m

    paul m Expert Member
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    Here in the UK ,fresh water fishing is primarily sport fishing. Our culture is one of conservation.It’s a fact that the authorities know that anglers are the first to report pollution for instance.We value our sport and care of the catch is paramount.
     
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  28. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    I admit I am the worlds worst fisherman. I once watched a large school of fish swim up to my baited hook and then part to swim around it. There was so many fish that one fisherman used a bare hook to just snag his catch. I went home empty handed. During a true shtf event, I will not be above using any method to catch fish. Traps, nets or even electricity (battery powered). Anything I have killed (except varmints), went into the cooking pot. I do have a natural lake within a short walk. so I can try my hand at fishing, if needed.
     
  29. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I love fishing and go virtually every Friday. Over the years I have fished for all sorts of fish. I like to catch and I also like to eat them but I do it so oftn that I only keep them for me if I'm going to eat them immediatly. Now I have a regular fishing partner and he feeds two families. so we process fish more often than I used to.

    When my wife retired she told me to go buy a new boat and she wrote a check for it. I got exactly what I wanted. I think the salesman was a little shocked. When we settled on a price with all the accessories I wanted he started to try and talk financing and she just pulled out a check book and ask him for a total. She was determined that I was going to get out from under her feet at LEAST once a week. It was a good investment. I used to have a bass boat but as I got older I am not as sure footed as I used to be and wanted to be in the boat a little more. I got a 17 foot deep wide V with a 60 merc on the back and a 42 lb trolling motoer on the front.

    Fishing the big East Texas lakes you can be back in a neck and then when you come out find huge waves. I came out of a cove one time on Sam Raburn to 8' waves Fortunatly they were running up the lake so I could get on the top of one and ride it all the way back to camp. I was in my bass boat then and never forgot it. That is why I went for a more sea worthy craft this time. Bass boats are great but don't offer the dryest ride there is. Since iInow fish exclusivly in the lakes I considder 30 MPH fast enough.

    I saw an asshole fly by me and really rock my boat one day and a little later I passed him. He had hit a floating log and tore his transom off. The lakes here are not natural and they just flooded the forests to create the lakes. Sam Raburn lake is about 180 square miles/460 Sq Kilometers so I'm not talking ponds. The lake that I fish now is a little smaller at 143 Sq miles/370 Sq Kilometers.
     
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  30. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    I am somewhat with Lonewolf in that I have no interest in hunting or fishing for something to mount on the wall. I want food in my fridge or freezer. If I cannot eat it ...I am not interested.

    I am not against sport fishing or hunting...,per se...just not interested in bagging something I am not going to eat.

    No interest at all in paying a Taxidermist to mount a catch ....a photo will do for me thanks. The rest on my dinner plate or in the freezer.


    Certain aspects of hunting enhance conservation...and is more economical...in conservation than rounding up and paying professionals to so do.

    Also, often in game preserves there is limited space...or land.


    Up here just north of me is the Colonial Parkway in Virginia between Yorktown, Virginia and Jamestown/Williamsburg, Virginia.

    Over the years the deer get overpopulated and suffer inbreeding maladies. Hunting is the most efficient way to thin them out against limited space/land.

    It also happens similar here in a big wooded area in this city..and the deer start coming out to people's yards and then there are complaints about the deer eating people's shrubbery and plants.

    Again, carefully opening up the arenas to hunting helps control the deer population.



    At the same time...some animals can become a pestilence...and need to be thinned out or expired. I am also not against this.

    Thinking here of the wild pigs taking over huge territories in this country to the point of becoming a significant problem.

    I expect them to be migrating up here to Virginia in significant numbers at some time down the road.

    I am hearing about Coyotes in the same vein in some areas...making a strong comeback.



    If memory serves me ...somewhere out west in America some kind of prairie dog ...are a problem with their tunneling and pose a significant danger to people's livestock. Thus many hunters/sportsmen/precision shooters....often set up tables..shooting platforms and spend the whole day shooting them from afar with precision rifles....thus thinning them out as well.

    No problem with me in this as well.


    Oh...while I am thinking of it.....My friend out in Tennessee plans to put up his Bee Hives and start back with collecting the Honey.

    I asked him if he understood that it could be a Bear Magnet??? Particularly out there in the hills of Tennessee!!!

    You know....sort of like how a chicken coop tends to draw foxes.!!??

    But he is driving that bus...I certainly wish him well.



    My non Ishmaelite .02,
    Watcherchris
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
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  31. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard ! Staff Member
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    When I lived in Kentucky, groundhogs were a problem. I had no problem getting permission from farmers and ranchers to weed them out. I freely admit, I did not eat these flea infested critters. The barrowed 22 -250 made very quick work on them. I truly love this caliber for varmints. I plan to get one of these for myself in the near future.
     
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  32. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    one of the things not much mentioned over here is that the wild deer herd have TB, people talk about badgers having TB and the farm cattle are regularly checked for it but little or nothing is said about wild deer, when butchering venison one has to know what to look for, I do not, the venison which I buy has been properly butchered and is safe for home consumption.
    there are plenty of Wild Boar in the region, I have never seen one live except on a farm but I have seen the destruction they leave behind.
     
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  33. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Excellent point about some animals carrying diseases and needs to be said....Lonewolf.


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite.
     
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  34. poltiregist

    poltiregist Legendary Survivalist
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    Last spring as the snow began to melt in the Rocky Mountains 4 of my family group went on a trip to look at some property in the Rockys as a potential fall back position in the event the U.S. had a military conflict with someone such as Russia or we were having a conflict with the U.S. Government . We camped on a spot the snow had melted . A herd of elk had done the same shortly before us . A week or two later I became very sick swapping from profusely sweating to shivering with cold , dizzy and unstable on my feet . Finally I went to an emergency room where I told the doctor I thought I might have a tick carried disease . He took my word for it and prescribed the appropriate antibiotic . Over a month later the lab result came back confirming my diagnoses . According to my research if I hadn't correctly diagnosed myself the odds were 90% that I would have died .--- Strange that conflict with a foreign advisory began yesterday but so for seems contained between Russia and Ukraine .
     
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  35. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    What bother me is bear hunters that just take the hide. bear meat is good eating. Just do not eat a garbage dump bear, I knew a family that ate one and all died .
     
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  36. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    And, never eat a bear's liver, ESPECIALLY, the liver of a polar bear. Seal livers (eaten by bears) have very toxic levels of vitamin A. Vit A = good for you. Too much Vit A = Poison.

    Groundhog meat is very gamey. My kin ate them, but I didn't like the taste of it.

    The 22-250 is all you need. The 220 Swift at >4,000 ft/sec can eat barrels ... just sayin'. It may be illegal, however, heaven only knows how many white-tail deer have been taken by the 22-250. At these velocities, the bullet goes in and then explodes. Hydrostatic shock = death. Gut shots with the 22-250 = an unholy mess.

    Workmate used 6mm Remington on deer. Neck shots = instant death = no ruined meat. The 6mm Rem = one fast bullet = overlooked quality cartridge/rifle.

    The 350 Remington magnum = too early death of a cartridge = Rem. barrels were too short = longer barrels enabled round to be truly effective = what a shame!!! GREAT short magnum that was doomed ... but not its fault. Lengthen the barrel = more velocity with heavy bullet = big game killer.

    https://www.chuckhawks.com/short_magnums.htm

    See how Remington's rifle offering has too short of barrel. Handy, but way too much loss in velocity. Magnums / slow burning powders need more barrel length to burn all of that powder. They just do.

    [​IMG]
     
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  37. lonewolf

    lonewolf Societal Collapse Survivalist. Staff Member
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    No Bears in the UK but we have been hearing reports about Wild Cats(Panther type mostly) since the 1960s.
     
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  38. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Short barrel rifles CAN be effective IF you either reload or pay a competant reloader to load rounds with fast burning powders. Fast burning powders won't give you quite the velosities that the longer barrels are capable of offering but they can be more than fast enough. Reloading can allow longer barrel rifles to reach almost magnum power levels with reloads.
     
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