Your primary defensive carbine(s)?

It's good to know that expanding bullets will feed'n'fire in the .30 carbine. During WWII, my dad liked the M1 carbine. He'd been issued a Thompson sub because he drove tanks, but he hated it (I don't think he ever told me all the reasons other than it being overly heavy and "bulky"). These Thompsons were then gathered up from support/transport troops and sent to the very front lines (my uncle, his older brother, was on the front and was issued an M1 Garrand). My dad's replacement weapon was an M1 Carbine and he loved it. He and his mates used to kill rats with these for fun and for getting good with these little rifles. (Marseilles was rife with rats.) Me, I've never owned one, but have given serious consideration to such.

I've had a Marlin carbine in 9mm and have a .357 Winchester Trapper w/16" barrel. I really, really like these, however they are what they are. I mean, like nobody is going to expect them to shoot through building walls, the sides of trucks with metal reinforced cabs, or engine water jackets. They are good enough for home defense. Marlin called their carbine a "camp carbine" = perfect title. These Marlins, you gotta put in a heavier spring and buy an after-market heavy-duty bolt stop for them to make them stand up to constant shooting. Also, do not run +P+ 9mm through them or the cases get scrunched. For the Marlin Camp Carbine, I think that the .45 auto would be a better ammo choice.

Yep, the 9mm is on the weak side for carbines, especially if the same carbine you like comes in .40S&W or .45 Auto. The velocity of the 9mm is NOT as greatly improved by a longer barrel as are other calibers. A .357 mag comes out of a 16" barrel at truly killing energies -- a bullet designed to open up at 1200 ft/sec really comes into its own at 1400 to 1600 ft/sec.. These larger handgun calibers still have little recoil out of a carbine. The .44 mag is overkill / over-penetration. One could see a .44 mag round going through interior walls even after it has passed through a giant parolee. I see the .44 mag out a carbine as a short range deer / hog hunting round -- tens of thousands of hunters swear by this combo.

 

The 30 carbine has its limitations. This is mostly due to the weight requirement limits put on the finished product. If it had been built slightly beefier, it could have handled heavier rounds like the 10mm, 10mmMag, and 45 WinMag, maybe even the 38 Casull. All of which would have not just made it a good self defense gun but also a good hunting brush gun. I run a .41 Mag pistol carbine combo that works well for me.

 

I am old school norinco m14 . 308, 20 shot clips.

 

I just went with one of the premium AR carbines from PSA. Have had it for a few years and put over 1k rounds through it and it has been reliable.

 

Brings back memories
at one stage I had a M1ASupermatch brand new and just back from the gunsmith who had fine tuned it.
Sadly it was stolen before I could even fire it! That breakin was the main reason I left Sydney for the bush in the early 80's
I had traded an older well used M14 in for the upgrade then an import ban stopped me getting a replacement.
I really liked that rifle!

 

It will really depend on what it is that I think I will be doing. More than likely it will be one of my 5.56 rifles. Either a tavor x95, a sig 556, POF AR, or if I want to do an AK, Arsenal Slr107.

There are are pros and cons to all of them. The sig has a great action patterned after the AK, very reliable gun, the x95 handles the best out of all them, especially going in and out of vehicles, houses, etc, the POF is very accurate has reliablity enhancements over a mil-spec AR, and the Slr107 I just like. Light weight, fires a little bit bigger round, and is reliable.

For handguns, I really like my CZ p10c, but more than likely if grab my glock 19.

 

by sarky,

Wow....someone else out there with the .41 Magnum!!!


I have of recent picked up a full length Henry rifle in .41 Magnum. I've not shot it as of yet...only cleaned and ran a handful of my reloads through it to check the feed and ejection.

The pistol is A Ruger Blackhawk in .41 Magnum.

This just seemed like a good working combination..pistol and rifle in the same calibration.


I have also of recent picked up the Henry Lever Carbine in 16.5 inch barrel length for my Ruger Gp 100 pistol..both in .357 Magnum...which also seemed like a good combination...just like the 41 Magnum pistol and rifle.

So far...have only run a handful of .357 reloads through this in like manner to the other rifle, to check the feeding and ejection. Have not shot either rifle to date.



Thanks,
Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite


Reloading for both calibrations.

 

My light duty set up is a Winchester Trapper in 357 mag matched with a Ruger Security 6. I have a ton of ammo in this caliber and several 500 round boxes of bullets, primers and powder to reload them. I wish that I had kept an M1 carbine and had it matched with a Ruger Blackhawk. I used to have a Mini 14 that I just loved but alas I shot it about a hundred thousand times and then a cop made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. I would like to try a Mini 30 but just can't justify it. My best friend is in negotiations right now for a Thompson 45 automatic . Now THAT with a Colt combat commander would be some serious defense in short range areas! I really like the 45 acp for close range stuff and have thought about the Hipoint carbine in that.

 

I too like the .45 ACP and have learned to reload for it. Except for the shotgun..it is hard to beat for close in work.

I have a Charles Daley .45ACP 1911 style pistol bought used and for which someone seems to have worked on it to tighten it up. You can tell when you pull the slide back it is tighter in the barrel bushing than the standard Colt Government. Good sights on it too. Shoots very well.

Similar to this one but with adjustable sights

https://www.charlesdaly.com/p.php?id=433


But also to my astonishment ..I bought a five shot revolver some time back calibrated in .45ACP..using those star clips.
It is a Taurus Tracker.

It is designed for bowling pin shooting...six inch barrel with muzzle porting on it. It is even more accurate than my Charles Daley. I would easily say this is one of the most accurate revolvers I have.
I don't carry it much as it is more of a target type pistol and I never was keen on stainless..day or night. But dang if it ain't accurate.
Prefer to carry my GP 100 wheel gun in .357 Mag...or on occasion that S&W .40 a guy sold me from work..needing some cash to get him through hard times.

But this Taurus is a shooter....

https://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=119&category=Revolver



I too have thought about the Mini 30 in 7.62 x 39mm calibration. The Mini Fourteen series has gotten expensive over the years and I settled on several SKS rifles while they were inexpensive. One of them just for spare parts. Even the SKS has crept up in price in the last two or three years.

Tell you the truth Texdanm...I like the Mini Fourteen in .223 better than a AR rifle.


Thanks,
Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite

 

The ONLY flaw in the Mini 14 for me is that I've never been a fan of the 5.56. With the Mini 14 I could beef up the loads a little bit. They are not as delicate or pressure sensitive as the CAR15. The bolt and lock up on a Mini is massive. Between that and the wood stocks it was heavier but for me that was more of a plus than a minus. I'm a big boy and the extra weight along with an after market butt plate made it so if I butt stroke someone they go down. Not as good as a bayonet but still works. I think that with a 300 black out you could still use the regular magazines.

 

What makes you think the AR is more sensitive to pressure than the mini? I don't think you could load a 5.56 hot enough to damage the gun, at least from what I've been told (provided you use the correct powder, etc) maybe push the primer out or something. If anything, the possibility of bending the op-rod is there on the mini from over pressure which I have heard of before, although iirc it's pretty rare.

 

As I recall...300 Blackout is nothing more than a .223 necked up to 30 caliber.

In like manner to how I neck up .223 to 7 MM for my 7mm TCU barrel for my Thompson Contender Pistol.

I use a different powder than is used for the .223 and I believe it is so as well for the 300 Blackout....a different powder.


Loading hot rounds and shooting them a lot is never recommended in any such tool. It eventually leads to earlier failure.

I don t like the factory AR gas system pushing gas back to the bolt. I prefer the gas system on the M1 Garand, M1A, AK 47/74...and others...where it works an operating rod...and does not flow back right directly to the bolt.

I believe as a matter of history ...bending the op rod is what happens to M1 Garands if you shoot a lot of hot rounds and or heavy bullets....in your reloads.

I believe there is a weight limit on the bullets in the reloading manuals for the M1 Garand and or the M1A rifles. Lighter bullets than the same caliber used in bolt action rifles....because of that operating rod feature.

I have a heavy barreled .223 rifle..bolt action. I can use heavy bullets in it..but it is actually set up for the lighter bullets because of the rifling in it....slower twist. Heavy bullets work better in faster turn rifling.

Yup....now I've talked myself into looking it up in my Hornady Reloading book. 178/180 is about tops in this manual for the M1 Garand. and also for the .308 Service Rifle ...meaning the M1A/M14.


In bolt actions up to 200 plus grain bullets are on the reloading charts...30 Caliber


With the .223...it seems to stop at some 60 grain bullet weights.



With 5.56 NATO and also .223 Service rifle the bullet weights go up to some 80 grains. That is a long bullet in a .223/5.56MM case. It will be needing deep seating to fit into the magazine.

There is not the operating rod design on these types of rifles.


Interesting ..I never noted this in the .223/5.56mm charts...about the bullet weights but was aware of it in the M1 Garand/M1A/M14 reloading charts.

Thanks for bringing up this line of thought sufficient for me to check the charts.


Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite

 

M1ASupermatch and you let it get away , so sad. was it a springfield armory ?

 

I broke a connecting rod on a semi auto 12 ga shotgun by using home loads from someone, never worked again

 

The early CAR 15s just like the early M-16 had issues that were later corrected. The AR foundation like most things has evolved over time. You have to understand I paid 165 dollars for my NEW in the box Mini 14. It was the first series that was available for civilian sales. At that time they were having a lot of issues with the M16 in Vietnam and the CAR15 was selling for around 225 so I went Mini 14.

The ARs built now are the result of about 40 years of evolution and not at all as finicky as the Early CAR15. The barrels last longer, they are easier to clean, they don't stove pipe or jam if properly maintained and if you reload you don't have to load in nearly as narrow of a pressure band as you used to if you wanted dependable rounds that didn't cause the rifle to wear excessively. The early rifles had 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twists and you were stuck with a 55 grain bullet because that twist wouldn't stabilize a bigger bullet. When they wore down or got dirty they didn't even stabilize the 55 grain bullets and that cause keyholing and awful accuracy.

Early rifles had a lighter barrel and had a hard time shedding heat. Higher pressures meant more heat and that meant more problems. They beefed up the barrel and made several changes to alleviate the heat issue but they still get hot in a hurry under hard use. Switching to the three round burst over true full auto was in part to help with the heat build up issue.

Chris, the change in powder, as I'm sure you know, when you neck up to make the 300 black out or any necked up round is because of the weight difference of the bullet itself. It takes a harder push to start a 100 to 125 grain bullet than it does a 55 to 62 grain bullet. The faster powders used on the lighter bullets could cause an over pressure situation when the bullet wasn't moved out as fast and in doing so relieve the chamber pressures. The burn rate of smokeless powders increases as the pressure increases and the faster burn rate makes the pressure rise faster creating a really bad circuitous situation. This is why some powders are more dangerous if you under charge a round than if you over charge it. It is called detonation when that happens.

 

hmmmmmm Texdanm....


You got me to thinking now. I'd not really thought it through to that extent..but I use ...

IMR 4320 in reloading .223 ammo


But

I switch to

IMR 3031 when loading 7mm TCU ammo.....which is a .284/7mm necked up .223 case. Loading 129 to 140 grain bullet weights

IMR 3031 is a slower burning powder than IMR 4320.


I also use IMR 3031 when reloading 7.62 x 39MM Ammo...heavier bullet again....123 grain bullet weight.

All these loads from my Hornday manual.



Thanks for brining up that significant point about reloading.

Watcherchris,

Not an Ishmaelite

 

I liked the minutiae of reloading. It is truly an exercise in repeatable preciseness. Being a bit of a geek I always had to know WHY about everything.

 

Yes my memory is a little dim from time but I recall it was a special short run rifle with custom tuned bits. a little over thirty years now. It was supposed to take three months to get it here but ended up just over 12 months to get in my hands, first factory delays then paperwork delays in the US then bloody customs over here, all in all it was just one big clusterfuck from start to finish.

 

Amen on that TexDanm...Amen!!!

The Details..it's in the details.


Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite

 

S&W M&P R8 ….8 shot 357 revolver and a Henry lever action in 357

 

Hey Texdanm....

I got to re reading again this thread....


And with re reading this thread...I got out my Hornady reloading manual..kept here at the computer desk....and looked up the 300 Blackout tables.

Quite a surprise...to be found there.

I had assumed that the .300 Blackout was the same length as the .223 brass case..this is not true.

While the case mouth has been widened to accommodate a .308 bullet ..the overall length is shorter than the .223.

Both resizing and case trimming here if one makes or resizes their own brass.


However....


Right there in the tables were some of my familiar powders..

H110
Win 296
Alliant 2400
IMR 4227

I also looked up the tables for the .30 Carbine and found many of these powders on this list there.

And of course also in the .357 Magnum reloading tables.

Those powders looked immediately familiar and hence I went back and forth in the reloading tables for different calibrations with which I was familiar..and behold...there they were again.

Very interesting.


Thanks,
Orangetom
Not an Ishmaelite

 

I have no military training and I began shooting at 68 years old. After research it seems to me the AR 15 is the best fit. Ammo will always be available since e law enforcement and the military using this rifle. The AR is light, simple, accurate, almost no recoil, and the market if full of modifications. I had a red dot and a prism scope but went back to a type of iron sights, Ultradyne, which gives me maximum flexibility.

 

Surely you wear bifocals. Usually bifocal need results in not being able to use open sights. I take it that the aperture and front post allow you sighting for close-in shots. What about 200 yards? Me, I gotta use a scope. I like a reticles that are similar to the German #4 reticle for under 200 yards.

I'm no AR 15 fan, so I can't help you with any questions concerning that weapon. The report of those puppies is quite loud, so firing one indoors is going to give you temporary hearing loss, maybe permanent.

In a semi-auto carbine, one can also consider handgun calibers -- think .40 S&W or .45 Auto. The 9mm Auto round is aided somewhat by a 16 inch barrel, however expect no miracles.

 

No, I don't wear any sort of glasses. My vision is actually better than 20/20. My best with A2 (mil spec) irons was 200 yards. But with the Ultradyne sights 200 was absolutely no sweat. I went out to 250, 300, 320, 378 and then ran out of ammo. It is not that I have gotten that much better, it is the sights. They are quicker than A2 and more accurate and you can shoot long distances. I fully expect to shoot to 400 but that is certainly no record for these sights. A guy at the Ultradyne shop hit at 600 when everyone else was using a scope and missing.

 

Well, I have a slide action shotgun in 12-gauge (Mossberg 500) and an autoloading pistol in 9mm (Ruger E9); I guess those would be my defensive guns. I do have a carbine (AR-15 clone by DPMS), an autoloading rifle in .22LR (Ruger 10-22) and a bolt-gun in .30-'06 Spg (Mossberg), but I don't consider any of them "defensive" firearms per se. No more firearms for me; I'm saving all of my extra money for other survivalist thingies, like a rear-tine gasoline tiller and maybe some Nubian doelings.

 

My carbine of choice is the Ruger AR 556. Handgun would be either a Sig P228 in 9mm or a Sig P220 in .45 ACP.

 

My preferred defense weapon is the one in my hand when things go bad. In my GHB I have a civilian version MK-18 in 5.56mm Nato, with a 1X -8X scope and a suppressor. It works for my needs.

Dale

 

Thanks TMT,
For years I wanted a rifle that I could have with me anywhere, (in a vehicle, walking in town, in a city)and that would meet a set of "prepper" criteria that I had. The weapon had to be;
1. Small enough that it was easily concealable
2. Easy to operate, even for my wife & girls
3. Easy to maintain (keep it clean and functioning even by the wife or kids)
4. Easy to acquire ammo (popular caliber, preferably military to ease ammo location in a TEOTWAWKI scenario)
5. Not a NFA weapon to eliminate big brother oversight.
6. Magazine feed
7. Semiautomatic
8. Accurate to at least 300 yards
9. Backup sights
10. Fast to the fight (easy to acquire from it's carrier and make operational in under 2 minutes)

It's not "perfect" but it works well for me.

Dale

 

Have a Ruger GP 100 in .357 Magnum...and Henry lever rifle carbine in the same calibratioin..by choice...

Also have a Ruger Blackhawk and S&W model 57 in .41 Magnum...

Have purchased the Henry lever rifle in full length for this calibration.

Have taught myself to roll my own ammo for both calibrations.

I like the concept of a handgun and rifle in the same calibration.

I will on occasion pick up bags of new brass for both calibrations.


I also have the Mini 14......5.56 X 45 mm...but also a Thompson Contender in the same calibration...14 inch barrel.

I like this set up too...and roll my own for it as well. Lots of brass to be found everywhere in this calibration.

But at times I have found the 5.56 x 45mm wanting and have also taught myself to reload it in addition to necking up the brass for a 7mm bullet....along with another barrel for the Contender in 7mm TCU calibration.
This offers a bit more energy delivery in a .223 case.

Have the Contender in various barrels...

.22 LR

.35 Remington

.223

7mm TCU

All 14 inch barrels.

Looking to eventually find another 14 inch barrel in .41 magnum for the Thompson Contender.

If you can hold it steady..this is a very accurate handgun...


But Warning.......


.35 Remington is very very stout in this pistol. I wear a glove when pulling the trigger in that calibration...or it pinches the nerve in my shooting wrist.

Bigger is not necessarily better. The .35 Remington is a mule..in the Contender handgun. The .35 Remington can deliver some serious energy...but on both ends.

I prefer accuracy ...it is my way.


Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite.

 

I also have my concealed carry weapon (Glock 43) all the time. The reason the MK18 is in the GHB is it's 300 yard plus range. If things ever got bad it is for self defense, but also for hunting.
Old cowboy saying: When a man with a pistol, fights a man with a rifle. The man with the pistol, dies.
Thinks to Clint Eastwood....LOL!

Dale

 

Awesome! Another western movie fan! I loved those spaghetti westerns. LOL! Always brains first!

Dale

 

Quick and dirty. Put this together for minimal money buying pieces at gun shows. Hangs underarm, carries a punch.

 

Sweet little pistol.
I build/assemble all of my AR's. I love making them. I think I get a better product at a much better price that way. I'm starting on a AR10 build now. Been studying H&K 90 series construction (MP5's, G3's, etc.) just don't have all of the jigs yet and my TIG welding still sucks. Something to work on.

Dale

 

Do you find that the 7.62x39 gets sloppy after it gets hot? I had a friend who went that route because surplus ammo was so affordable and his did that.

 

Is that a multicam plate carrier or a pack?

 

Pack. It's a Karrimor SF 30. I have been very happy with it. I don't own a plate carrier now. I took 3 rounds of 7.62x39 in one once upon a time (feels like another lifetime ago) and would have one now, but back and neck injuries won't allow it. The pack and weapon are my max. Life is funny sometimes.

Dale

 

From everything I've been told, researched and experienced much of the poor performance of the 7.62x39 is more the ammo and sloppy tolerances on it than the weapons themselves. We had a couple captured AK47's in my unit that were the milled receivers and better than normal barrels and they actually kept pretty good accuracy (about 1.5 inch pattern at 100 meters). We had 2 AK47's that had the new (at the time) stamped receivers and everyone hated them. Terrible accuracy! I always thought the AK was good for what it was designed for but would choose something different when my life was on the line. Just my opinion.

Dale

 

Both the AK rifles as well as the SKS rifles are not known for their close tolerances which is why they tend towards reliability.

I found similar with a .45ACP government pistol versus a Kimber .45 ACP target grade. The standard issue pistol would feed cast lead bullets and the more precisely machined Kimber would not .

And so too it appears is the case with the SKS and AK variations of rifles. Agree some will be more accurate than others..but overall....they are not precisely machined versus other types.

Most very accurate pistols and rifles tend towards closer machine tolerances...and or manufacturing standards.

The first time I disassembled a SKS and or AK 47...I realized quickly why they can turn them out by the millions....as if they would be giving them away as prizes in corn flake boxes.....so to speak.


For their design purposes the SKS and AK series are fine....
I do not consider them in the accuracy league as do I other rifles. More for closer in work.

And so too the 7.62 x 39mm cartridge...I consider it for more close in work.
It would be an interesting cartridge in a bolt action rifle...but still for closer in work.
And bolt actions in that calibration are pricey....which is why I stuck with an SKS rifle.


My non Ishmaelite .02,

Watcherchris

 

I'm Interested.

 

Recipes are readily found on the web. Here's one, but you can find lots of written instructions and videos. I didn't look for videos. I don't have a safe place to store anything explosive.

I don't even like having gas & kerosene cans in my workshop/storage-shed out back of our house. I routinely open its doors and a window to let air flow through that shed. Safety = #1.

I live within a mile of my little community's fire department and am happy about that. Once when living in the burbs of a good-sized city, there was a house fire down the street, mid summer, firemen were dying from the heat -- not from the house on fire, it was the summer weather killing them wearing their HEAVY fire suits. So, I limped (w/trusty cane) a case of water to them. Payoffs = friendships. Payoffs are a cheap investment. Dear old Dad taught me that "friendships" are purchased (remember, never be too obvious). Why not just be friends with the uniforms. Uniforms ain't gonna tell you sh## and you ain't gonna share either, but smiles and nods in "good times" can really count when the SHTF.

"Sincerity is the hallmark of a good man and once you've learned to fake that, you've got it made."

https://www.tngun.com/homemade-tannerite/
.

 

L1A1 in 7.62 nato is my pick

 

A .40 S&W in carbine config sounds like a winner, especially with a handgun companion. The best combo would be if both handgun and carbine used the same magazines. Sticks feel funny and weigh strangely when used in a handgun. They REALLY look funny. Were peaceful protesters burning your house down around you, the strangeness of your weaponry wouldn't be much of a bother. I wish the police in Portland would have had a case of loaded stick magazines and dumped the contents thereof into their Molotov cocktail party visitors.

The Marlin Camp Carbine shared mags with the S&W 59 series of handguns. Handy-dandy. That was their 9mm. I don't know if the Marlin .45 chambering shared mags with a Smith pistol or not. That was decades back. I really like the concept of a "camp carbine". Those rifles had to have after-market parts however to make them sufficiently robust for perpetual use. Straight from factory, the rifle's receiver would wear-out -- long story.

In researching the following, you'll be trying to find information on accuracy. Do not forget to also check on reliability. If the weapon is just cranked-out, it could just self-destruct. I've witnessed people at the range have their inexpensive weapons blow pieces-parts about. Not good. Got stories. Not now.

Kel Tec:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=.40+rem.+carbine+kel-tec&atb=v140-1&df=y&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Berretta Storm:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=.40+rem.+carbine+berretta&atb=v140-1&df=y&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

Ruger

https://www.ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/specSheets/19109.html

There are likely other manufacturers who make a semi-auto carbine. I too was curious about the topic, but am not in the market for such. I remember that Kel-Tech carbines didn't lock open on last shot and that a lot of folk were complaining and that Kel-Tech was going to fix this, but I don't know if they have. The Ruger would likely be the best mix of accuracy, quality, and cost-effectiveness, but I've certainly not been looking into that. One would imagine that a Berretta would be expensive (?). Taurus used to make a carbine in 9mm and .40 S&W, but I think that they no longer make them.

You can likely find out a whole lot more by going online. Were I you, I'd first compare the Kel Tec with the Ruger.
.

 

The FN design L1A1 is THE pick. My attraction to the M14/M1A1 is totally personal (I was issued one in High School).

I could kick my butt from here to eternity for not buying an FN clone out of Australia (surplus). So what if the receiver was metric! That was decades ago.

FN has superb engineering. My FN fun toys simply work and are more accurate than are my shooting abilities ... and I'm good. I would have utter and total trust in an L1A1. And if anything should go wrong, it can immediately be put back to rights. Real machinery, the "real deal".