Can Emp Kill Natural Gas Generator And Even Solar???

Discussion in 'General Q&A' started by Vox Ephemeral, Aug 8, 2017.

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  1. Vox Ephemeral

    Vox Ephemeral Expert Member
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    Ready to buy, but wondering how resistant to EMP Solar Panels and the Natural Gas generator will be?
     
  2. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Any electrical circuit that can be enclosed in an earthed (grounded)metal case or cabinet will be protected from an EMP.
    An earthed (grounded)mesh can be used to protect solar photovoltaic panels but you would have to check the gauge and mesh size necessary.
    Essentially you need to create a Farraday cage around all electrical products that you wish to protect. If in doubt ask the installer/contractor.
     
  3. WarHorse52

    WarHorse52 Active Member
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    I have a cabin off grid with Solar Power Primary and a backup gas generator! I can tell you now there is no way it would survive and EMP! It’s not possible, unless it is not hooked up and you have electrical system in a faraday cage. My cabin is about 1500 sq feet! The bigger problem is keeping batteries from dying every 3 to 5 years! (The batteries way 100 lbs each and I have 32 of them)
     
  4. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Shielded wire or metal conduit is available, you don't need to enclose the entire cabin...alternatively flipping the breaker switch as you go out will isolate the unprotected wiring from the batteries and PV panels while you are absent. The EMP myth has been doing the rounds for so long it has become dogma, you can back up digital data and protect delicate electronics easily enough. More robust electrical systems are likely to just trip out and need resetting or restarting in the case of engines. I repeat, if in doubt check with a suitable contractor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  5. WarHorse52

    WarHorse52 Active Member
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    Thanks! I pray you are correct. I was expecting a big ball of fire of an emp hit mine.
     
  6. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    EMP strikes can be a little like lightning strikes. They come in different sizes and there are a lot of not well understood factors. When you look at the numbers of the voltage, amperage and temperature of a lightning strike you would be positive that no human could EVER survive a direct strike...but some do?????

    When you run a wire through a magnetic field electricity is generated. Remember those shake up flashlights. You were moving a magnet back and forth inside a coil of copper wire and it made enough electricity to charge batteries and make the light work. Now imaging a magnetic field the size of a continent or ever big enough to batter the entire world. The last time this happened there were not a lot of wires around. Telegraphs were about the only long distance wires there were. It burned the tops off the poles in some areas and some telegraph operators got a shocking surprise.

    What is going to happen in a worst case scenario is that all the wires hanging on poles all over the country are suddenly going to be charged with a huge electrical surge. Pretty much every step down transformer is going to explode violently. Every fuse on every power pole is going to blow and many of the lines will get fried. The fine works inside computers may not survive. That means that the cars will stop and the airplanes may need to make a fast landing.

    Now we get to the nitty gritty of the problem. There are nowhere near the needed replacement parts on hand to fix this problem. First you will need to get the transportation going and then the factories going to make all the things that will be required to get things going again. Remember that the cars stopped so how do you get the people you need to do this work to the factories??? The truth is even if the military and government manages to come through intact there won't be any way to get food and water into the major cities before they burn to the ground and the riots destroy everything that the EMP didn't get. Best case scenarios will have over half of the people in the big cities dead within two weeks. There just isn't enough food and water even if everyone shared and acted in a cooperative manner.

    As these starving, thirsty people flood from the cities into the surrounding areas you do NOT want to be the person with lights and power that they can see or hear. Understand, this is going to be a quiet world in a way that very few people have ever experienced. If you fire up a generator you are going to have company coming.

    Unless you have the money to buy a major class generator and fuel you will be at best putting off the inevitable. Regular generators are built for emergency use and aren't going to last for months and months. I've seen this after hurricanes. After Rite there were people that were without power for 6 weeks. Lots of the generators died and had to be replaced in even that short of a time.

    If I was going to try to power up after an EMP I think that I would go with the solar panels. They are quiet and actually designed for long term use. Rather than the propane generator get a propane refrigerator. They also are silent. The LED lighting makes the solar panels a lot more attractive. There are even low voltage fans now days. Radios and TVs will be useless. There might be a few government broadcasts but entertainment broadcasts will be less important and low on the list when people are dying in mass all over the place. For a while IF the government and military survive they will be focussed on getting food, water, sewage treatment and medicines to deal with the plagues like typhoid, typhus, cholera etc. that will become epidemic in a hurry as sewage contaminates ALL free flowing water sources.

    Propane used to cook and run a refrigerator. will last a long time. I would try to avoid using it for heat though. It will be a LOOOOONG time between tank refills. For heat you use wood and you don't heat a house you just heat a room or two. Being able to have lights and keep laptops running will be priceless. I doubt many people have the sort of paper library that I have and information is power!

    Boy talk about a long winded wandering answer!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  7. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    Spot on about the propane refrigerator TexDanm, refrigeration is one of the greatest advances that society has made since the invention of the wheel. The ability to keep food or medicines fresh for longer could save your life. As you point out, cooking on propane or heating with it would attract much less attention than any other method.
    I agree that parts of the grid are vulnerable (mostly overhead) but an off grid system would be easy to isolate.
     
  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    we don't need refrigeration post SHTF, people managed quite well before we had such things, food can be canned, bottled and pickled, kept in root cellars etc.
    I kept a lot of excess vegetables in an old chest of drawers in a darkened cool bedroom, this lasted me all winter until I could grow fresh in the spring.
    meat can be dried, smoked and jerked.
    once the power goes off and stays off we will return to the old ways.
     
  9. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    It can be pretty usefull if you want to keep any dairy produce or cooked meat though LW. Refrigeration helps prevent food waste by slowing bacterial growth. The alternatives are Spring rooms or ice houses, both difficult to build on a small scale and more suited to communal use.
     
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    small scale isn't really a problem, I've lived off grid before and its certainly doable in that context, using the methods I have previously described.
    the problem occurs when one is trying to preserve larger amounts of meat when one would need something like a commercial cold room, something I don't think I will be trying to emulate.
     
  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    All that may work fine in northern places but things change when the temperature goes triple digit. It becomes a race to preserve meat when you don't have refrigeration.
     
  12. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    yes I was speaking from personal experience in my own location, I have no knowledge or experience of hotter climes.
     
  13. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    If we were to lose power on a massive long term basis in August the death toll would be as bad as losing power in the North would be in the dead of winter in the North Country.

    This is one of the great things about having the sort of people from all over that we have here. It allows us to learn things that we would probably never have thought of where we live. Living in a place that had your very strict gun control laws has made you adapt in ways that I have never had to consider. I live in a place that is extremely forgiving. We have lots of water, no real winter by most people's standard, no large predatory animals and lots of native edible plant life. I have learned lots here because some many of you live in a world that is very different from the one I live in and have challenges that I don't face.

    I guess that my biggest challenge will be that where I live EVERYONE is massively armed. That is why I tend to focus mostly on how to avoid gun fighting rather than trying to be the baddest dude in the county. I know people with class 3 licenses. That means full auto military level weaponry. One of the gun dealers here had an air cooled 50 belt fed machine gun in his shop! He sold full auto and silenced weapons back when that was hard to get licensed for.

    People that live in cooler climates can wait till it gets cool to butcher big animals. Where I live there is not a single day of the year that can't make it to just plain HOT. When I kill a deer it has to go to a place with a cooler for seasoning and butchering. I have done it myself but I had a refrigerator that I stripped just for putting an entire deer into it. When working on refrigerators is what you do that is an option that most people don't have. Without that you have a hard time processing and putting up your meat without spoilage. Without power I will have goats, pot belly pigs, rabbits, ducks and chickens instead of hogs, cattle and such larger livestock. Meal sized critters make it easier when you have a lot of heat.
     
  14. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    In Devon and Cornwall there are 10,800 registered guns out of a population of 1.6 million, many of them shotguns, but there is also a serious anti gun attitude in the UK, also a serious anti "blood sports"i.e, hunting mainly in the big cities.
    my BIL has just bought a gun, one that is so heavy he has to wear a special harness, cant see the point of that myself.
     
  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    HOLY GUACAMOLE!!! Where I live you could almost reverse those numbers!! Owning 25 to 50 guns per a household isn't rare here.
    WHAT in the world sort of gun does your BIL have? The only thing that I can think of would be one of the really heavy military type guns like an M60 or some sort of Movie weapon like a Mini gun electric machine gun. Even one of the Barret 50 cals can be carried with a standard rifle sling. I have seen some tactical slings for some of the smaller assault weapons but that is sort of unlikely over there.
     
  16. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    apparently, he says, the only way to fire it is by lying down!
    again seem to defeat the object to my mind, I like things basic and simple, the simpler the better.
     
  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    It sounds like a Barrett 50 cal. They are fun but not very practical for survival purposes unless you have a need to shoot people or animals 2 KM away. I used to shoot crows with a guy and we generally considered 1000 meters as almost point blank. At 3 to 5 dollars a round they are a bit pricey to shoot.

    I consider some sort of EMP to be the most likely of the many possible disasters. It is not and "IF" but WHEN we get hit by one. Even a relatively small hit could be disastrous. People just aren't prepared for several months without power. Imagine an area the size of a state without power for a couple of months. That would crash the economy in that area because no power means no work. Spread this to a national area and you will have huge death count no matter how much help other countries gave.

    Even if it doesn't effect the cars and trucks or fry your small electronics it won't matter. The gasoline is pumped by electricity, the cell towers require power as do the radio and Television stations.
     
  18. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    that's my whole point, if the fuel pumps don't work then no fuel, no fuel means nothing moves, that's trade gone down the pan, no trade means no work, eventually that means societal collapse.
     
  19. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Expert Member
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    You have to remember that even if you protected your natural gas generator from an EMP or Carrington event, the natural gas processing plant and wells will probably be affected.

    Another thing to consider is if people see you have power you better have guns.
     
  20. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  21. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Expert Member
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    And what happens in the past can repeat its self into the future.

    I'm a firm believer in learning from past mistakes and such. Take for example aviation accidents. I read about those all the time on the Internet and in Plane & Pilot. You can learn a lot about them. Usually it's someone's stupidity.
     
  22. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    "those that fail to learn the lessons of the past are destined to repeat them":D
     
  23. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    totally agree with all of the above posts. I consider and EMP the most likely to happen catastrophes. the cheapest , simplest and most effective way to attack a developed country. My latest data from the US government study of this estimated ninety percent of the population would be dead in one year if an EMP attack occurred.
     
  24. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    a country would not likely be EMP attacked unless the attacker felt confident that the EMP attack would include all are nearly all of the country. probably nothing to stop the attacking country to follow up with additional attacks when and where they chose. the military equipment also vulnerable, planes , helicopters, trucks transporting food to troops, water supply. A state size EMP not likely.
     
  25. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    EMPs are not just human caused. They are a natural occurrence connected to sunspots which are coronal mass ejections. An X class coronal mass ejection could light up the entire world.

    An EMP attack would not and is not intended to be a military thing. It would be used to crash the civilian economy and ability to supply the military with the needed supplies. Wars are not really fought between militarizes. The military would never stop. It is when the civilian pressure reaches the point that there is nothing left for the military to fight for that they sue for peace. That is what the atom bombs did to the will of the Japanese peoples will to continue.
     
  26. F22 Simpilot

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    Of course you'd also have to consider the fact that if China or Russia for example were to launch an attack we'd see it coming and that's when the 7 or so subs at any given time around the world at areas no one even knows except maybe ea few at the Pentagon will launch. Also, B2's will take off and Minute Man Silos will go off. An EMP attack or a nuke strike, it wouldn't matter. Countries with nuclear capability know this. So it's really a last ditch effort and in all intents and purposes no one wins if it were to happen. Right now we could shoot down a couple missiles, but most will hit their targets. I'm hopping that our anti-missile shield evolves to the point it would be useless to even have nukes. I mean, if each nuke capable country had a missile shield then nukes have to be delivered in other ways. Right now the U.S, has the B2, F22 and F35 that can slip past enemy radar to achieve such a thing. But it's mostly an on reserve force should the unthinkable happen and we have to extend our "thanks for your missiles, now here's a nice ass kicking of our own."

    I actually just read that a low yield nuke is replacing what we have now and can be carried by the B2, F35, and B52. Also, we, China and Russia are working on hypersonic missile capability. So that's a whole new game to master. The Chess game is looking pretty interesting. Some say the Cold War ended. In fact, it's pretty much still an ongoing thing thanks to Putin's bullshit KGB mentalities and sabre rattling. Then you have China which is trying desperately to outdo the U.S. and are building air force bases all over hell up to and including in Pakistan.
     
  27. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    basing my information on what the guy in the U.S. government agency over this threat had to say on this matter . An E.M.P. can be delivered by satellite .The atmosphere is already saturated with satellites carrying unknown contents , circling the globe in the correct orbit to deliver an E.M.P. strike . Even the impoverished country of North Korea has several satellites in orbit that fall into this category. To think an technical advanced country would not exploit this , is being in denial. It would only take a few taps on a key board to set off an E.M.P. . They likely have already been delivered.
     
  28. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    wouldn't surprise me at all.
     
  29. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Whether it be EMP or cyber-attacks, one should expect grid shutdowns and the cessation of any delivery of fuels. Gonna happen. Some places will be worse than others.

    Kerosene storage should be considered.

    https://www.pointbayfuel.com/blog/the-benefits-of-modern-oil-heat/

    Kerosene can be used in home heating, the running of diesel vehicles, and in lanterns for light.

    When hard times hit:
    > Cut back DRASTICALLY on the home heating -- wear layers of clothes, wear wool.
    > If it is illegal to use heating oil in your vehicle, well, tough sh##, disobey the law -- nobody's going to be enforcing it anyway. Pay off the cops with a gallon of kerosene.
    > You can start wood fires faster using kerosene as a cheating mechanism. I cheat on a routine basis.
    > There are hiker mini-stoves with adapters for the use of kerosene. I have one. Heat up a can of beans; throw in some Spam. You won't die.

    Using the above techniques, your kerosene storage will last far, far longer.

    If someone comes to steal your kerosene, shoot them. Burn their body with ...

    .
     
  30. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Expert Member
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    Why does kerosene smell so good? I have a kerosene lantern and used it in my tool shed.

    Diesel is close to kerosene and smells good too. Yet this stuff is an oil-based product. I don't understand the human brain. LOL
     
  31. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    kerosene(paraffin in the UK) and diesel-and petrol too-will only last post SHTF as long as the stocks do, without any more being refined its days are finite, eventually you will need a natural material to run your lanterns.
     
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  32. poltiregist

    poltiregist Master Survivalist
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    people have different time frames they prep for . sure most everybody has to start with the first month and build from there. something to ponder over , the U.S. government predicts it would take at LEAST one year to recover from an E.M.P. attack . what if after several months after the the first attack a second , are third attack is conducted ? are you ready?
     
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  33. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    if an EMP shuts down the power grid that will pretty much be it, it will take about 3 months to order, make and ship EACH of the spare parts needed as they are not kept on the shelf , that's not including fitting them.
    3 months without electricity? I think your average person couldn't last 3 DAYS without power never mind 3 months.
     
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  34. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Electronic equipment used in industrial automation are tested for radiated and conducted electromagnetic noise by shooting several bolts of lightning into them to the tune of 35,000 Volts each. I've watched such a test and the equipment didn't even hiccup. This control equipment is then housed in NEMA cabinets. They are being protected from nearby TIG and MIG welding, however this robustness also protects in time of war.

    Know that even with high altitude EMP-burst weapons going off, lots of equipment will NOT be toasted. Factories have generators of their own -- at one factory, I saw a train engine generator being used for this purpose. These generators are most often housed inside huge metal building structures.

    Our military spends Billions of dollars on EMP protection. I've known people who work in that world. Add to EMP protection triple redundant CPU control. Two CPUs can buy the farm and still, the equipment keeps on trucking.

    Kiss your neighborhood electrical grid goodbye. However, understand that an horrific amount of planning has gone into keeping the military and essential factories/industries going post nuke attacks.

    Kerosene will be back into production faster than anyone might imagine. From Cold War on into today, this has been a key part of preparing for nuclear war.

    This used to be part my working world.
     
  35. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Post nuke, the military will rush in to protect areas around key industries.

    Because the military is composed of nice people? No, to support the workers for those facilities.

    WWII The USSR had its industries bombed into nothingness by the Germans. Allied forces then invaded Europe, thus giving the USSR a bit of breathing space. The Russians instantly began rebuilding to the degree that they became able to attack from the east. They pushed through half of Germany.

    Even in the face of chaos, countries rebuild. Should people riot and interfere, such rioting will be terminated with extreme prejudice. Urban warfare training is not just for actions against other countries.
     
  36. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    your talking about the USA, i'm talking about the UK, chalk and cheese.
     
  37. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I am not sure that it would be almost as bad if a cyber attack took out all the connected computer systems. We depend on them now days to operate almost everything. No power, no water until they can bypass the computer controls and go manual. Banking and all sales would grind to a halt. Most stores these days don't even have a price on things. NONE of the kids running the check out could count change even if they knew what things cost and could add up the bill. Phones, radio, Television all would be down so forget calling the cops. I'm not sure that we could get things up and running fast enough to prevent a total societal breakdown. Hell a few hours of power down in big cities usually involve so looting. Your cars and generators are only good as long as you have stored fuel. It goes away FAST!

    We in the US have a very fragile infrastructure. If it goes down and doesn't come back up pretty fast it may not be able to ever boot up again.
     
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