Do you believe in Evolution?

I doubt my opinion matters to anyone here and I'd be wasting my time trying to change anyone's mind either way but thank you anyway for asking Coputere.
Some support the scientific angle while others support the Christian idea of Genesis and yet more follow other religions with totally different creation myths....best learn to live with that because we're never all going to agree

 

I actually see the book of Genesis to be a remarkable accurate description of the process of both the big bang and evolution. If you accept that God doesn't HAVE to work in a 24 hour earth day and that the first day might have been a really long day the order of the creation is almost exactly as the evolutionary theory describes. I look at Genesis as being about the best that you could expect for a bunch of prehistoric migrant hunters and shepherds to get and understand. then it was passed on for MANY generations as an oral history. There was definitely something there for it to have survived as accurately as it has.

Unlike so many I have almost no problem with seeing truth in both creation and the scientific description of most physical history. I don't try to shrink my god down to being little more than a human PLUS or super human. I actually find that the hard core creationists and the hard core science backers are very much the same. They each have a closed mind and are so sure that their way is the only possible way and refuse to listen to anyone else's thoughts.

Unlike most Christians I have read and researched the Bible. In order to understand it you MUST understand the Jewish belief system and the historical world that they lived in. The old testament is totally a Jewish creation that has been carefully edited before being placed in the King James Bible. The new testament is a collection of even more carefully edited and selected writings of a few and the least of the followers of Jesus. To understand it you again need to understand the history of both the time period when the books were written and the history of the time when Constantine created the religion.

In my search I have actually found more in the Bible than I had ever been taught in a normal Christian upbringing. It is a remarkable document about the search of mankind for a relationship with something so far above them that it is almost incomprehensible to imagine. Then in the new testament is about the evolving relationship and the sacrifices made by the people that were trying to offer a closer more personal relationship.

Ystranc, your opinions matter to me. There is nothing to be learned from a group of people all just nodding in agreement. Man NEVER understands everything and you only learn by asking and then, hardest of all, listening.

 

Evolution is set up to conflict with Creationism and for reasons not understood by many people.

Evolution is a devout religion to many and intended to be in competition with Judeo Christian beliefs.


Evolution is a variation of a theory of everything.

This is a concept and understanding seldom brought to the attention of most people...about the nature of a theory of everything.


If I can paraphrase...Stephen Hawkin...."There can be no theory of everything because of the work of Kurt Gödel.

My limited understanding is that there have been numerous attempts to refute the work of Kurt Gödel and some of them quite expensive attempts..

Why is Kurt Gödel such a pain in the backside to some in the field..??? You hardly hear the name of Kurt Gödel....

You hear often the name of Albert Einstein ..who was Kurt Gödel's friend at Princeton...but very very seldom...about Kurt Gödel.

If you understand this ...you will understand something very telling about the religion of
Science being promoted as a theory of everything....to the gullible.


One of the keys to understanding this ..is....in it's very nature...is.....

Science has put us in better cars...homes...medicines,,,,clothes..appliances and a litany of products...but it has not made us better people....better consumers....definitely ..but better people...no ...not at all.


I am not against science at all ...working in the Nuclear Field....

I am against science as a religion and as a theory of everything.


Because I know that Science has not made us better people.

And remember ...it is science which is so heavily subsidized by government..

Think very very carefully about this side of the religion.

Because the major occupation of government backed by science is "Herding" people.

Often by scare tactics...keeping us afraid of the next thing they need for us to fear...and cede more control and power to them....Ishmaelites.

This is Ishmael....and bondage...not Isaac and liberty...

Be warned.

Watcherchris

Not an Ishmaelite

 

Science treated as a religion is stupidity squared. This is the reason our science generally has to progress so slowly. An entire generation of priests (Professors) of their sciences has to die out before something new can be introduced. The priesthood will say it can't be done or some theory is impossible and then rather than look at the evidence they will bury it and see that the heretic proponents of the new heresy are chased out of the temples (Universities).

I'm pretty fond of good science. Without it I would probably be dead or a cripple. I also like my computer and pads a lot. Science in itself isn't bad. The problem with science is EXACTLY the same problem with religions. As soon as people get involved they start corrupting it for personal gains in power and money and the truth is the first thing to go out the window. There just isn't any money in Truth or Compassion.

 

...on a personal level, yes...I believe that the theory of evolution is correct. I know this will set me at odds with the more fundamentalist religious members of this forum but they're free to disagree, right or wrong.

 

Just to expand on what TexDanm was saying, I can't help thinking that unquestioning belief in anything is bad, when we accept dogma and stop thinking for ourselves we will stop developing either personally or as a species.

 

For the greater good of humanity, the sign should read, "Please feel free to breathe under water."

Me, I would save up the cardboard rolls that form the core of toilet paper rolls and sell them for $5 each at lakes and swimming facilities as "Underwater Breathing Devices. UBDs"

a.k.a. Über Brain-Dead

 

by Texdanm,

Wow!! Is that ever in the X ring.!!! On target..!! In the ten ring.

I too am fond of good science or I would not be working in the nuclear field.

I just do not care for science as a religion.



I am not for science being used and misused to "Herd " people into not thinking for themselves and to respond to a stimulus like a robot..a stimulus which is not theirs...emotions which are not theirs...ideas which are not their ideas.
Mind you ...I am not against learning....I am all for individual thinking..and not "Herd Mentality."

Again science has put us in better cars, homes, clothes and a plethora of other products. I just do not believe science is going to make us better people................better consumers definitely ...but better people...no...not happening.

Big bang..little bang...no bang..I just do not think people are the determiner of how or why it happened.

All the theories in the world are not going to change that. But it will change how we think about what we are...and that is the purpose of Evolution ..to properly herd people....unto the Ishmaelite traditions of men.


My non Ishmaelite .02,

Watcherchris

 

Merry Christmas!
Absolute Being, absolute Unity, absolute Power touched absolute nothingness. There was an explosion that resulted in Mind/Will with the chaos of nothingness lingering.
Spinning. Expanding. Sparkling. Even unto today.
Mind/Will was manifested in the form of evolution within the maelstrom.
Unity witnesses the sparkling souls born of His Will. And feels Love.
Unity would say, "I love you" with a hug, however the Power of the Absolute would annihilate the very sparkles created within the Holy swirling pool.
Therefore Unity manifests His love through special Beings of Light who would not be destroyed by reflecting His Might, yet suffer and sacrifice their Earthly bodies to the chaos of this dangerous world. The sparkles are saddened by the loss of these Beings yet enlightened of their own purpose and of their own Holy destiny.
When the sparkles' bodies wear away they too ascend and Unity breathes them in.
And there is Joy.
One of these Beings of Light was born in a manger. The wise attended and evinced the humility of the shepherds.
Merry Christmas!

 

Being perhaps a little more pedantic than necessary I would suggest that 'devolving' is actually a form of evolving, which is purely using adaptability as a mechanism for change. We can theoretically evolve into people who layabout in bed all day and play on game stations, provided we have the subsistence to do so. Evolution is not always 'onwards and upwards'

 

That's for sure

 

Here is my two cents worth
Evolution and creation are two parts of the same thing!
Evolution is the basic process that all living things do! it is a long rather slow progression'
It is rudely interrupted by Catastrophies that are short sharp events that jolt evolution
Creation is simply the time from the last catastrophy, simple as.

There was no big bang as taught in schools, simply not possible.
There was a contraction of the universe. As the universe contracted it spun faster and faster as it contracted, there are many practicle science demonstrations of this. As the force of gravity was the force shrinking the universe it kept shrinking until the energy of that now fast and faster spin, centrifugal force gradualy increased as gravity itself reduced at some point in this shrinkage centrifugal force became greater than gravity and the great ball of energy that the universe had become reversed its shrinkage and expanded, we are currently still in this expansion phase and will be for some time. Eventually as the universe expands and the spin/centrifugal force weakens the universe will begin its contraction, very slow at first but eventually gravity will reign over the centrifugal forces and gravity will see the cycle repeated. Simple process like everything in the universe based on the atom and cycles.
The universe is vast but simple very simple

It is possible that stuff can survive from one universe to the next so there maybe stuff out there far far older than the presumed age of this universe

There is no god but there maybe some vastly intelligent/knowledgable species out there somewhere that may seem to be a god/s to us puny earthlings.

There you go my two cents worth
If you need a demonstration of the process just visit an ice rink and watch a skater spinning, all the science needed is on show there you just need to watch.

 

Part of the problem is that most people don't understand the concept of the WORD evolution in the right context. People, because they see themselves as the ultimate peak of evolution think that it some how means moving UP. Because we are, in our humble opinion, the "BEST" that all thing below us are less evolved.

Instead of seeing evolution as a straight line starting at the bottom and moving to the top, us, see it as an expanding circle. There are many animals that are far better adapted to their place and environment than man. A shark is a nearly perfect predator. Evolution is simple CHANGE.

If animals evolve in a trying environment they will grow stronger, faster or smarter. If their environment changed into a more benign environment they will slow down, get weaker and more stupid. They didn't de-evolve, they just evolved into a different set of needs.

There was a time when being smarter meant that a smart person would have more children that would survive and thrive. Along with this people evolved specifically in different environments that modified them. People that lived in places that had limited resources and had to struggle to find enough to eat became smarter and in general less fertile. In an environment that isn't over run with predators too many children will over load the parents ability to keep them fed. If you lived in a cold place you tended to be more barrel shaped to better keep the core warm.

If you evolved in a jungle you needed to be fleet, smart and because of the high number of predators you needed to have more kids in order to have as many as possible make it to adult hood. You tended to be more slender and have a higher level of the twitch muscles that allow you to run fast, be quick, and jump high.

Some places where people civilized their environment fairly early became smaller and smarter. Small people need less food and since they didn't have to deal with too many predatory animals there just wasn't a lot of advantage to being really big.

All the people of earth slowly became the BEST possible human to live where they lived. When we started moving around and mixing things changed wildly and as our civilization grew what was needed to put more kids in the next generation had less and less to do with smart. Instead it has become an evolutionary plus to have as many kids as possible and since you aren't going to have to be very smart.

The good news is that eventually when there are too many noncontributing members in a culture it will collapse. In general if you look this sort of cycle is not at all uncommon in nature. I know where I live the freaking rabbits do this regularly. some years they are everywhere you look and dumb as hell and then they are gone for several years. The length of their disappearance is probably about the life span of the coyotes. With people I think that it will be the stupid and immoral that will play the part of the predator. The Liberals seem to want them to breed like rats!! They encourage them for sure.

Lots of species have gone extinct because they evolved down a dead end path.

 

The best example of evolution as a concept is probably the Ostritch, where we have a flightless bird that has evolved from a flying bird to make better use of its environment. It gained the large powerful legs to run instead of bothering with flying.

 

Sorry, I am one of those dinosaurs who believe in a literal six day creation. Evolution as proposed by Darwin seemed plausible in its day because they knew little about the complexity of life. Can there be changes within a species such as limited forms of adaptation, so in that sense yes I believe in evolution. I laugh when I read some of the comments, not because I disagree (and I do), but many are far more fundamentalist and closed minded in their belief in evolution (which is an unproven hypothesis) than many radical fundamentalists I know.

 

Do I believe in evolution to the extent that lifeforms "evolve" and change and adapt to the circumstance and stressors around them, yes. Do I believe in evolution as it relates to Darwinism, NO.

Yes, I am a wildlife biologist and have had a lot of advanced biology. That's part of why I don't believe in Darwinism.

Dale

 

I can go for the 6-day creation thing...I just am not sure exactly how long a day might be for an eternal being that was not a creature bound to the simple revolution of this one little planet. How long WAS that first day??? I don't try to force gods to fit MY specific parameters rather I suspect we are molded by theirs. A day in the life of an eternal being might be a revolution of a galaxy or the universe itself. I have never had a problem with evolution and actually find the story in Genisis to be an amazingly, if simplistic, accurate description of the sequence of events. The universe is huge beyond human imagining. I don't try to make God so small as to imagine that this one little mud ball and I am the center of his universe.

 

Flew was an interesting man, a philosopher, nothing grand but interesting and came up with the idea of an "Intelligent Creator" which is now banded about as "Intelligent design by many scientists." Its worth picking up a book by him, they are very straightforward to read (I'm quite a fan of Philosophy). If you want to 'get into' philosophy and are new to the subject read https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-B...for+beginners&qid=1565898547&s=gateway&sr=8-2 I got this for my children when they got to about 14, it covers all the main players and uses drawings/cartoons.....its a good starting point.

 

Flew was certainly an interesting cat with a journey from Christianity - atheism - theism. Arguably one of the most influential philosophers of the last century. He did come to some form of acceptance of the idea of intelligent design but if I am not mistaken he climbed on a band wagon that had been going on since the late 1980s. His theory was reasonably well articulated iirc but it wasn’t his original idea.

 

Just the other day, I was contemplating evolving a bit further than I have so far. I thought and thought.

I then gave up, because thinking hurts. I peeled another banana and turned up the volume on my TV.



OK, so it wasn't a banana.
.

 

For our American members, if you use a VPN sign in to the BBC and listen to this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0007kk7

 

Many of the posts in this thread seem to confuse aspects of personal development like learning or maturation with Darwins theory of evolution.
Darwin's theory of evolution (survival of the fittest) is a simple and quite elegant way to explain why plants and animals change over many generations in order to be better suited to their environment. Darwin was not some kind of anti Christian monster who was out to debunk religion. He was from a profoundly religious background and extremely conflicted about his findings because they were at odds with his own deeply held Christian beliefs.

 

Good morning Ystranc,

A real good post.

Darwin didn't focus on the origin of life. He addressed the origin of the species.

Yes, he was conflicted but his social environment - his overall "establishment" - honored him and Darwin got buried in an important symbolic place.

His beliefs left his social "establishment" with clarified and, some say, better quality beliefs.

 

That’s okay I like you even if you believe bad science. Even with evolution you still have to wrestle with the issues of origins. The universe cannot have existed forever because it’s impossible to transverse an infinite series of moments. That means a starting point of something out of nothin* which defies any form of natural explanation. So you stick to you4 myths and ill stand by mine

 

Darwin didn't even attempt to form a theory to explain the creation of the universe, that omission doesn't make his other work "bad science"
"The origin of species"was groundbreaking in every way and should be impossible to dismiss as bad science, even if you disagree with it, since Darwin's work was based on meticulous observation and logic.
My question to you all, whichever side of the debate you're on, is have you read it? You should.

 

Good post Ystranc.

I believe in the Darwin's theory, it makes sense. I don't believe the earth was made in six days or that its only a few thousand years old either.

The Bible, the Torah and the Koran are great works but written by (mainly) men long after the events mentioned therein so much of their contents are not written in stone for me.

 

Of course I heard of the Big Bang, the problem is how did nothing bang into something? It violates the laws of thermodynamics. You can call it an endless cycle of expand and collapse but that doesn’t address the fact that at some point there had to be something out of nothing because you cannot transverse an infinite series of moments.

 

Have I read it? More than once. You are correct, I should not have called it bad science, the bad science follows with those who have extrapolated his theory into an untenable religion.

 

You could make that argument for the Old Testament, but the latest manuscript evidence places the New Testament well within the first century some of it within 40 years of Jesus.it wasn’t written long after the events.

 

I like to adopt the attitude of live and let live. I'm not religious but I accept that many religious texts are useful social engineering tools that give moral and social guidance for their adherents and as such they can be a good thing.
Unfortunately there may be contradictions or mutually exclusive conflicts between religious texts while each claims to be the only true book of gods teaching, historically this has almost always led to physical conflict. (Not such a good thing.)
Each and every religious text cannot be "true" to everyone since many of their teachings are mutually exclusive, that simply isn't possible. They are however "true" to their own adherents and as such should be treated sensitively no matter how much you personally disagree.
My main exception to this way of thinking is if members of a fundamentalist religion (any religion) or sub sect attempt to enforce their laws or morals over someone else of another faith by force or persecution (such as Isis did)

 

Just because not all religions cannot be true does not logically exclude the fact that one of them is. Each is free to choose and with choice comes consequence.

It is unfortunately true that there has been much conflict between religions, but there has been equal or more conflict caused by ideologies and all forms of world views, look at communism for example and it’s hundreds of millions dead or look at WWII which was a decided conflict between world views. I am not saying such things are right, just saying they are part of the fallen human condition.

I agree wth you about those who would force conversions. In terms of attempting to force morals, every society, secular and religious does this, it’s called law.

 

LW, I agree that each should have the freedom to choose their path, but not all paths can be true and choices bring consequences. I have to laugh you talk about wanting to be left in peace, yet you jump into a religious thread and seemed surprised when there is push back. Just as you are free to choose a path, you are free to participate or not.

I for one enjoy discussing religion and politics (and many other topics) because through discussion you get to learn other perspectives which should cause us to examine our own, leading to possible modifications or strengthening of our own perspectives. That’s a good thing. As a bonus people understand each other better when they understand where the other person is coming from. With any intensely held belief (religious or otherwise) there is potential for heat in the conversation. If we don’t talk about the things we are passionate about our level of conversation, community and dialogue quickly erodes to the vapid vagaries os polite social intercourse.

I’m not speaking of people who are trolls, they are not interested in discussion, they just get a perverse pleasure out of creating conflict, most likely due to their own insecurities and needs. They are a waste of conversation on the other end of the spectrum.

You said you don’t believe in things you can’t see hear or smell, yet you seem to believe in some form of rights and human dignity. You can’t see taste hear or smell those. You are married so I presume that at least at one point you believe/believed in love, same applies to it. Now you can see the effects of these things and so it is with a faith.


Peace brother

 

Well, it’s has a resemblance to a free country. Whether it’s truly free or not is debatable. Certainly the few freedoms we do have are quickly eroding

 

God licked His finger, touched absolute nothingness, and there was this big explosion.

Chaos and Order. Swirling. Hot then expanding, cooling. Mind/purpose vs. non-being, no purpose.

Out of the swirling soup come the infinite combinations, the aromas, the epochs of ants.

Plop plop fizz fizz



How to worship? Spin. Become emptiness so that Somethingness can occupy your being.

 

Sorry I must be slow this morning but I fail to understand the point you are trying to make

 

I believe in adaptation. Adaptation is easily shown and seen everywhere. I do not believe in "evolution". How do we recognize fish and sharks and alligators and monkeys in the fossil records? They look like fish and sharks and alligators and monkeys. There are no "transitional fossils". The few that have been "found" have proven to be hoaxes. I believe God created the universe including all animals in "their kind".

 

Realizing that one will always fail to understand is the beginning.

Being lost in Divinity is being found.

 

What a pithy load of horse hockey.

 

Many who considered themselves wise were among those who called upon Pilate to free Barabbas.

And Euripides said,

"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."

 

Undoubtedly, I could have been more gracious in my response but the first part of your response was imho (and Lord knows I am not wise, just a simple hill billy) pure zen nonsense, ideal for the side of a tea box but without real depth of meaning. The second part about being lost in the divine was contrived at best but I did get your point. If you want to play quotes we can go with “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” or perhaps the lesser known but often apropos “Don’t swallow that...it’s horsesh*t”

In any event I apologize for my less than tactful response, sometime my social filter doesn’t work as well as it could. No offense was meant.