Hunting & Defense. Which Tools Are Best?

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Keith H., Jun 18, 2016.

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  1. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Hunting & Defense. Which Tools Are Best?

    [​IMG]
    My .22 Caliber BRNO Rifle.


    Some people will disagree with what I am going to say here, so it is up to you the reader to use common sense & decide for yourself, based on what I say here, which is the best tool/s for hunting & defence.

    Many people recommend the modern firearm for long term wilderness living/survival, & if they were just recommending this firearm for defence only, I would agree. What I disagree with is the fact that if a modern firearm is used for both defence & hunting, you will have to carry a lot of ammunition with you. When this ammunition runs out, you are left with a club.

    The .22 is a reasonable choice for defence, but in a fire fight you can go through a lot of ammo unless you only choose targets that you stand a reasonable chance of hitting. Even then, you will need a lot of ammo. Modern firearms on the whole are reliable, but they can malfunction. I have had a rifle fail due to cold weather, the firing pin was sticking in the bolt. Another .22 had a duff firing pin & it had to be replaced. I could not replace this firing pin in a wilderness situation.

    The .22 LR has it’s limitations in hunting. It is very good for small game such as rabbits, geese, ducks etc & a good shot will bring down a goat. Anything tougher or larger than this, shot with a .22 LR, may get away wounded. So what I am saying is, I recommend that if you are travelling with a companion or in a group, someone should be carrying a modern firearm, but keep it for defence purposes only.

    Once the caliber of a breech-loader goes over .22, then the weight also increases, & there is a limit to how much weight you can carry in ammo without compromising your survival supplies in other areas. Water, food, & medical supplies should NEVER be compromised by carrying large amounts of ammo. With a muzzle-loading arm this is not such a problem, because (A) you can retrieve spent lead from shot game & easily remould it, & (B) gunpowder (black powder) is not as heavy as lead (or modern cartridges) & you can carry a lot of it in gunpowder wallets without compromising other survival supplies.

    Hunting.

    For hunting in a long term wilderness living/survival situation I think the primitive/traditional bow & arrows or the flintlock muzzle-loading firearm are superior tools. The compound bow is not a good option in my opinion because (A) there are too many bits to go wrong, & (B) it requires special arrows & bow string, neither of which can be replaced in a primitive situation. Whilst I think the bow is an excellent choice for hunting providing you are skilled in archery, they are a poor back-up for defence against firearms.

    The flintlock muzzle-loading gun or rifle is an excellent tool to use for hunting, & it is a reasonable back-up for defence against other firearms. It is a little slower to load than a breech-loading firearm, but is still a viable option. Ideally if you are a member of a group, there would be modern firearms, muzzle-loaders & bows in the group. This would be the case in the group I belong to. BUT, if I was travelling alone, & could only carry one tool (breech-loader, muzzle-loader or bow), my choice is the flintlock muzzle-loader.

    [​IMG]
    My .32 caliber flintlock rifle with double set triggers. More killing power than the .22 rimfire.


    Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.

    1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.

    2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies).

    3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.

    4) You can vary the load if needs be.

    5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.

    6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.

    7) You can make your own gunpowder.

    8) You can use the lock to make fire without the need for gunpowder.

    9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.

    10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.

    11)If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.

    12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.

    13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.

    14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.

    15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (only NSW is looking at this legislation at present).

    16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks.

    17) Damage from a .62 caliber-.75 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.

    18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.

    19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.

    20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.

    [​IMG]
    My .62 caliber flintlock fusil.

    [​IMG] My .70 caliber smoothbore flintlock pistol, carried for defense but can be used for hunting.
    Keith.
     
  2. James98

    James98 Well-Known Member
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    I feel that if you were to carry any gun eventually your ammunition would run out. with a muzzle loader you would run out of bullets and powder. and as much as you can make black powder it is very unlikely that you would be able to find the proper ingredients required if you did not stock them in which case you could have just stored more ammunition.
    if i had to choose one firearm to use as an all in one I would choose a 12 gauge shotgun. my reason for this is that it is powerful enough to kill anything except the big seven and yet capable of killing a squirrel or rabbit without turning it into mush. the disadvantage is the size and weight of the ammunition however when considering a SHTF scenario you are not going out into the woods to survive with a backpack of supplies. generally speaking you would have some sort of home base where you would be able to store the majority of your equiptment.

    a close second would be a .22 rifle only second because it is not capable of taking down larger game, it just lacks that stopping power. ammunition is cheap and you are able to keep 1000's of rounds in a small space though which would make it good for extream long term
     
  3. DonScott

    DonScott New Member
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    I'm a big fan of the 12 gauge for a self defense/bug out gun. A good 870 will be your best friend for life. Easy to modify for self defense or hunting. 12 gauge ammo is probably the easiest to find and definitely some of the cheapest. And the ability to fire slugs can put down a hog easily.
     
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  4. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Given what is available here in the U.S. there is no way I'd choose a black powder weapon
    for defense, survival hunting, etc.
    I own several black powder weapons and love shooting them.
    I've taken deer with one and we have special "primitive weapons" only seasons.
    Very effective weapons they are for hunting.
    But not for defense in a shtf IF you have access to modern weapons.
    I have many modern weapons.
    And ammo.
     
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  5. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I agree, if you can carry both modern & muzzle-loading fine, but if not, I will choose the muzzle-loader over a modern gun any day.
    Keith.
     
  6. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Re: defense weapons.
    I'm not a fan of the crossbow for hunting, often referred to as an X bow, but have a Horton Hunter X bow.
    Never took a deer with it but like it.
    I thought it might, possibly, make a defensive, or even offensive weapon if need be.
    Why?
    Very quiet tool.
    Effective to 50 + yards on a large target, i.e. human gobblin , and anyone can that can shoot a bee- bee gun can shoot an X bow.
    Arrows are called bolts and like all arrows are reusable if they are not lost.
    Just a thought.
    I still want to learn the atlatl (sp?).
    Why?
    Well 'cause.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

    https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/horton-hunter-hd-175-crossbow-package?a=475332
     
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  7. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Well Keith, there are a lot of dead Civil War Americans that could attest to the effectiveness of the
    black powder front loading firearm.
     
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  8. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Hey Keith: ( et.al.)

    On Dec. 5 an unidentified Confederate soldier in Fort Sumter saw a Union soldier moving in Battery Gregg, 1390 yards away. The Southerner was likely using a Whitworth Rifle when he lined up his sights on the Union soldier and fired, killing him.


    1760 yards to a mile.

    Not bad at all. Er, for the shooter, the shootee, not so much.

    The famous long shot at Adobe Walls.
    he Army sent a team to verify the distance. It was 1,538 yards–7/8 of a mile. Years later, Dixon admitted it was a lucky shot. But he was also quoted as saying, “I was not without confidence in my marksmanship.”

    Read more: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/rifl...ly_dixons_one_mile_shot_010311/#ixzz4iKcgBeUc

    My uncle Wilbur was a premier marksman and taught me long range shooting at
    groundhogs.
    My longest shot. 425 yards at a groundhog and hit it in the head!

    Uncles famous advice? "The bullet has to hit someplace."

    I'm a trained sniper by the way.
    By Carlos Hathcock no less.
    Google that.
    93 confirmed kills
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

    I've been to the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy a number of times for
    advanced training.
    Most were firearms schools among others.

    I trained 7 days straight at a special and quite secret location.
    I fired over 5,000 rounds of ammo that week.
    Wasn't my ammo. Taxpayers paid the bill.:D



    Machine guns are hungry ya know.
    My favorite sub gun?
    H&K MP-5 with suppressor.
    The suppressor is so efficient I could hear the bullets hit the 100 yard butts.
    No muzzle noise at all.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
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  9. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Yes, I have a record of a similar incident occurring post civil war, I believe the distance was even further.
    Keith.
     
  10. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Keith I DO love my muzzle loaders.
    Black powder, white smoke.
    It's an addiction.
    I have 5 or 6 black powder revolvers and love 'em.
    I knew a fellow in West Virginia that hunted deer only with a black powder revolver.
    He hunted from a tree stand so shots were fairly close and he did quite well.

    http://www.reloadammo.com/relblac2.htm

    ^^^ black powder revolver ballistics.
    At least as powerful as a +P .38 spl.
     
  11. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    All hand guns are restricted over here, even black powder ones. Antique muzzle-loading pistols have no restrictions except that you are not legally allowed to shoot them. So for me, a muzzle-loading pistol is a good option, plus I love their versatility. I prefer a modern firearm in a firefight, but for long term use, especially in a wilderness situation, I prefer a muzzle-loading long arm. I can reuse spent lead, I carry less weight in lead & more gunpowder. I can use round ball or shot or fashion ammo from a variety of flora. I can make fire with a flintlock without using any precious gunpowder. If the lock should break I can still use the gun as a matchlock. I can't do any of these things with a modern gun. I would also carry a traditional bow. As a family group, we would be carrying modern firearms, traditional bows & muzzle-loading guns & rifles.
    Keith.
     
  12. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    There is a place for all those.
    "Beware the man with one gun. He knows how to use it!":D

    I LOVE that BRNO rifle!!!!
    Wish I had one.
     
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  13. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I have owned that BRNO for about 50 years, it has been right around Australia with me. It has jammed using Winchester ammo, & the firing pin has been too sluggish to fire a couple of times in winter, but it is still a good rifle.
    Keith.
     
  14. Corzhens

    Corzhens Master Survivalist
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    This is based on a family talk. My father-in-law was a hunter and a bemedalled target shooter. His favorite in the hunting trip is the shotgun and the .22 rifle. But that would depend on the mountain they would go to. If they are hunting for deer or wild boar, the best is the .22 rifle. As long as the animal is shot in the head, it cannot escape. But for bird hunting especially wild geese, he would settle for the shotgun. And from what I remember, the shotgun has 2 kinds of ammo, one with small bb ammo and another with bigger round metal balls.
     
  15. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    For those living in Australia, DO NOT attempt to hunt wild boar with a .22 rimfire. Calibers of .45 & upward are recommended if you want to survive!
    Keith.
     
  16. jeager

    jeager Master Survivalist
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    Same with wild boar in the U.S.
    I've taken a few and NO ONE uses a .22 rifle.
    In fact I believe it's illegal.
    I used a 45-70 and carried a .45 auto just in case.
    My first one was taken with a Marlin lever action in .35 Remington caliber.
    1st shot at the running critter broke it's back. I finished it with a .357 magnum bullet to the head.
    I don't hunt them any longer. They taste awful!
     
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