Non-military Ship Sailings Through Arctic Waters

Discussion in 'News, Current Events, and Politics' started by Pragmatist, Oct 27, 2020.

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  1. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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  2. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    In polar region declination of magnetic compass is the last thing one should be worry about. heck traditional fisherman around here doesn't even have any compass let alone any chart :D
     
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  3. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The cost is going to be high due to the problems but the length of the trip from say Japan to Great Brittian is going to make it worth the extra cost and the problems. People have been trying to use the Northwest Passage for centuries and it may finally in modern times become feasible.

    The drifting North Polar magnetic field might not matter much in the lower latitudes but it can be life or death in an ice field. It is currently after staying in northern Canada for centuries seems to be heading to Siberia now. This won't have a lot of effect on compasses in the south but when you are in the north it will make a much bigger difference. Honestly though who actually is dependent on compass headings nowadays for ocean navigation?. You use a GPS that is reading satellites that are stable and locate you to a matter of a few FEET.
     
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  4. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    When the boat completes its Arctic route, it heads southward where they use several types of directional instruments to include the magnetic compass.

    When in Arctic waters, the declinated magnetic compass still provides a reading. This info is reported to the scientific agencies so they can plot and study the shift of magnetic North.

    I am not referring to local fishing boats doing this in the Arctic but rather the bigger vessels operated by the big companies.
     
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  5. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Actually it matter a lot anywhere in the world when you need to navigate long distance (seagoing or flight) Even my own personal planner took account of such declination & inclination based upon the most updated data / earth magnetic chart and using it and other assumptions such as barometric pressure to correctly calibrate my phones sensors and preparing my phones for navigational purpose.

    SOLAS Chapter V Regulation 19- Carriage requirements for shipborne navigational systems and equipment.

    All ships irrespective of size shall have:
    • A properly adjusted standard magnetic compass or other means, independent of any power supply to determine the ship’s heading and display the reading at the main steering position
    • A pelorus or compass bearing device, or other means, independent of any power supply to take bearings over an arc of the horizon of 360°
    All ships of 150 gross tonnage and upwards and passenger ships irrespective of size shall, in addition be fitted with:
    • A spare magnetic compass interchangeable with the magnetic compass, or other means to perform the function referred to by replacement or duplicate equipment
    All ships of 300 gross tonnage and upwards and passenger ships irrespective of size shall, in addition:
    • A properly adjusted transmitting heading device, or other means to transmit heading information for input to specified equipment
    All ships of 500 gross tonnage and upwards shall, in addition have:
    • A gyro compass, or other means, to determine and display their heading by shipborne non-magnetic means, being clearly readable by the helmsman at the main steering position. These means shall also transmit heading information for input to specified equipment.
    • A gyro compass heading repeater, or other means, to supply heading information visually at the emergency steering position if provided
    • A gyro compass bearing repeater, or other means, to take bearings, over an arc of the horizon of 360º, using the gyro compass or other means. However ships less than 1,600 gross tonnage shall be fitted with such means as far as possible
     
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  6. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    Its called DG (Directional Gyro) mix with Star Sighting (all of them are automated). Regular gyrocompass doesn't work at polar region. What you do is using DG for directional, and using mix of DR (dead reckoning) + celestial for positional. GPS can be use for comparative against both directional (albeit need minimum 3 kts to get good directional reading) and positional
     
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  7. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Ships are required to have and carry a lot of things that they don't use. The good thing about celestial and compass based navigation is that it doesn't fail and stop working. Ships officers are required to KNOW how to do that but it is strictly now as a backup emergency only thing. I worked for 13 years in a shipyard and one of the things that we did was prepare ships sailing under a US registry for inspection and certification. At that point, ALL of their equipment had better be functional and ready to go and all of their required charts have to be up to date. they have redundant equipment of all sorts on a ship and not just navigational backups.

    Even with radar they still have to have a watch officer that is eyes on the water. The thing about old school navigation is that it is based on getting to where you are going and based more on the endpoint than exactly where you are. Modern navigation is based on a starting point of exactly where you are first and then you plot your course from that. The old way always had a level of uncertainty that made things a little sketchy at times when a ship was in tight quarters of heavy traffic. An error of a few hundred yards or even a mile or two means little when you are in the middle of the ocean alone. as you start to close with land and with other ships it becomes more and more critical.

    In the past ships ran aground or onto reefs or even into other ships at an unfortunate rate. Fortunately with the new satellite-based navigation ships not only know exactly where they are but also where exactly other nearby ships are and any dangerous reefs or shallow water. It has made shipping a much safer business than it was just a few decades ago.

    Aboard my boat, I also have a compass but if I am running out of sight of land or in the dark I am awful glad to look down at my GPS and know where I am and where any navigational issues are in relation to me. When you are running just on a compass heading the winds and currents can push you off course a lot over a trip of more than a few miles.

    I live inshore now but it is still nice to be able to stay in the middle of the river when running in the dark and the freshwater reservoirs in this part of Texas are huge.
     
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  8. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    by Texdanm,

    Exactly right Tex....good explanation you have provided.


    In the olde days...on Trans Atlantic or Pacific flights C130s and C141s liked to have their Canadian Marconi Doppler Radar navigation system working...in particular to plot drift angle.

    And when you went above certain latitudes....there was a mode switch called "Polar"..to recalibrate the distance between longitude lines which would change at a Cosine rate.

    Nowadays this equipment is hardly used due to improvements in Inertial Navigation Systems and or GPS...between these two more advanced systems they pretty much have it covered...

    But...............................

    You still need to know how to go to a back up system should olde Murphy get in the works..and they go out on you...

    And history is replete with examples of primary equipment not working...and few knowledgeable on the back up systems..or back up systems not working.

    When you are out there and far from home and help.....Wow!!!!!!

    This world is a big...big... globe....


    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  9. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    there are now cruise ships that visit a lot of the arctic ports. the ice has opened up and a north west passage that was dreamed of by franklin and other now exists .they visit places i used to work at on Baffin island . However they are all closed to tourist traffic due o covid 19
    1)pond inlet .
    2) Clyde river
    3) Iqaluit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin's_lost_expedition
     
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  10. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Varuna,

    I was referring to the magnetic compass; not a gyrocompass.

    Some aircraft gyrocompasses are used in polar regions.
     
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  11. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Homey ain't working no iceberg target.
     
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  12. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  13. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    If a tanker heads through arctic waters, they'd better be double-hull design, what with the big sharp ice-cube thingies being everywhere. If they do a black spill, that'll be the death pill. And Santa's gonna be very upset -- coal in their stockings.
     
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  14. Pragmatist

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    Good morning Old Geezer,

    I believe all of those boats must be double hull.

    For this side of the world, Canada considers the NW Passage to be a domestic Canadian route and the US consides it to be an international waterway. When reading up on this, the unofficial compromise was a joint nation safety inspection station for transit. This required all the boats to be Polar-protected.
     
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  15. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    It is Canadian inter costal water way, period. American would not like it if Canada started to treat American intercostal water ways as international. all the land around it is Canadian.
    Ships going through should ask permission that all i am saying
    693a58184a3f4a260d3e227497023ab4.gif
     
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  16. Pragmatist

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    Good evening Arctir Bill,

    I personally accept the passage as Canadian territorial waters.

    Yet, politics is involved.

    The even more important reason is the precedent. The US relies on naval power. It needs access to water routes. The NW Passage is accessable. Sailing in the Baltic and around Russian Far East could see heavy diplomatic skirmishes tied to some USN ships getting banged around again like between Japan and Singapore.

    In pragmatic terms - if I may - development of the Northwest Passage requires ultra expensive infrastructure. My guess is that the arrangements are made and the public just won't see them. Of course the project funding won't be coming from Denmark (Greenland possession allows for a claim to some sovereignty) or the EU.
     
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  17. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    As some member have mentioned this is an environment that is extremely sensitive to pollution. The Inuit harvest a lot of their food from the ocean. Fish, seals, walruses , clams and drinking water. The water in pond inlet is bad so in the winter the Inuit go out on the ice and look for old ice from the sea and the bring it and then use it as drinking water. If there ever was an oil spill It could wipe out a people .
     
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  18. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Arctic Bill,

    Vessels plying Polar waters are best quality - but still pollution occurs just as a matter of running machinery in hazardous areas.

    The Inuits might have to relocate if/when the passage gets busy.
     
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  19. arctic bill

    arctic bill Master Survivalist
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    They won"t they have been there for 10,000 years it is their home .
     
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  20. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good afternoon Arctic Bill,

    The business of the maritime trade doesn't care about the Inuits. It's only when lawsuits and political complaints arise that the companies force the issue.

    I remember when Frobisher Bay area was made into new provincial capital when Northwest Territories was divided for the original Canadians. The idea was to keep peace.
     
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  21. varuna

    varuna Tree killer & a cat person
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    The question is where would they go? Is there any other place that suitable for them? or they end up going culturally extinct?
     
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  22. Pragmatist

    Pragmatist Master Survivalist
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    Good morning Varuna,

    I can't answer as to any relocation area.

    Yes, other places are suitable; not the same but suitable.

    Going "culturally extinct" is common enough for other ethnic groups also.

    Here, well south of the St Lawrence River and Great Lakes, we've had many native American/American Indian tribes go extinct. The descendents are part of "Middle America" now. West of Canada, Alaska set up 13 official "tribes" of Eskimos and Aleuts - those locals of the islands -. These "tribes" were set up as corporations. One of these corporations was for Eskimos not living in Alaska but rather down here in the lower 48 states.

    I once had to go to Alaska for a pre-bid proposal for companies interested in running a US Government ocean vessel in support of the original locals (North Star 1 was vessel name). In a follow-on trip to Washington, D.C. to the Department of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, I learned about the Eskimo tribe that was for non-resident Eskimos of Alaska.

    Fortunately, my corporate vote to forget the nonsense about running a welfare boat won out. As soon as I read the ship's tariff entry for loading a pallet of native handicrafts priced in a few dollars and cents, I realized they were getting more welfare than some welfare groups down here.

    For specifics on what I scribbled above, I must defer to the Forum Members who are residents of Alaska.

    Meanwhile, I'm freezing down here in coastal Virginia !
     
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