Seems Like A No Brainer.

Discussion in 'Converting Your House Into A Survival Shelter' started by GS AutoTech, Jul 18, 2017.

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  1. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    Your home ( or any house ) used a a shelter seems like a no brainer. If basic get out of the elements to stay alive is what you need. Walls, roof & flooring right? You can easily seal up one room & heat it with a little ingenuity.
    But are we talking about a fortified shelter? I can think of quite a few ways to create a defensive position. What do you think?
     
  2. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I get the idea of total seclusion & becoming invisible When SHTF.
    The idea of just having shelter, any shelter is good. If a house, barn, shed or any other existing structure is available to use, that takes alot of hard work off the table. Basic survival & tactical defence are not always on a parallel path. Of course tactically it's beneficial to be invisible in your hole, unseen & unheard. I have a family of six, so laying hidden in a dirt hole for six months or more would be a challenge if it would be considered at all.. I'm surrounded by hundreds of wooded acres that we could fade into & remain hidden. Our location is also a fairly low density population area. That's a SHTF bonus.
     
  3. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    cyanide pills? on a survival forum? you gotta be joking! no way Jose.
     
  4. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    I have to disagree billa. This is a survival forum, not a genocide forum. I choose to survive. Never would I consider feeding my children poison to avoid even the slimmest chance to survive.
    I will enhance my skills & teach my family the same.
    Survival is pretty unique to each person. Based on their skills, location, preparedness, resolve & each particular survival scenario.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  5. GS AutoTech

    GS AutoTech Expert Member
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    This thread was originally about shelter. Just a thought about utilizing any available preexisting shelter to escape the elements. It's way easier to to enact basic survival when shelter is available.
     
  6. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    there are plenty of old abandoned farm buildings in my area, plus unused quarries also with buildings, shelter dosen't always have to be about building cabins or dugouts, anything can be used, just so we can get out of the wind and the rain.
     
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  7. Bluesky9

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    Time to revive this thread..
    Last Sunday, We noticed the temperature going up in our home. Yep, A/C wasn't working. We own a nice home out in the country (closest neighbor is 1/4 mile) and we have a heat pump for heat and cooling. Now, I used to work on A/C units before I retired, but this eat pump is too complicated for me. I called the repair company.
    They were coming in two days. No problem - outdoor temps were nice - didn't need to heat or cool. However, they did not show and the n ext night got down to 48 degrees - inside was 68. No problem - we have a gas fireplace .
    Opened the screen on fireplace to light it, but it would not stay on. Murphy!!
    When we bought the house two years ago, every thing was electric except that fireplace. So as a caution, I removed a new electric cooking stove from the basement and replaced with a gas cook stove that did not need electric to work.
    After breakfast, I went to the barn and got tools and air-tank. I disconnected the gas line from the pilot light, blew air through it and punched a wire in the gas valve hole. A few minutes later, The fire place was working again, even better than last year. Glad I knew how to do that.
     
  8. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    After reading the above, this memory just popped into my head. It may or may not apply. I'm at that age.

    Forty years ago, I helped a friend of mine and his father install a freezer unit in a meat-packing facility. The outer structure was composed of large panels; think, giant playing cards and you are building a glorified card house. These panels were placed upright and adjacent to each other such that they could be locked together. The locking mechanisms were large steel hooks (8") that rotated into the next panel. As the rotation continued, an eccentric cam locked and pulled the adjacent panel into the hooking device's panel. This became so tight that you would hear the inner insulation crunch. Each panel had galvanized metal sheets as their exterior and their interior was some sort of hard insulating foam (strange stuff).

    This cooler, with insulated floor, could take the inner temperature down to -40 degrees Fahrenheit and hold that temperature. It was mega-efficient.

    The structure didn't breathe -- which doesn't matter in the case of dead meat -- however, some air circulation had to be provided if people were going to enter to do their work.

    Story was that one of the development engineers for this structural material used it in a large area of his home. This large area only needed 400 watts of power to be heated even in winter.

    Isn't that great! Sorta, but sorta not. Insulation that is too efficient sweats. We humans can breathe-out nearly as much H2O as we urinate. The air humans breathe MUST be circulated and it's not just to get the O2 in and the CO2 out.
     
  9. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    On the subject of home vs. fortified shelter, think about fortifying your home.

    Let's say you have a frame house; OK, so a rifle round will go right through the side of your home. In the movies and TV, one sees people shooting out of windows and doors then hiding behind a wall or under the window. In the real world, do that and you're dead.

    In anticipation of a SHTF societal collapse, one might consider building bullet-stopping barriers in strategic locations. One solution is very simple -- just pile up sand bags. Another solution is to build barriers with strong paneling as the containing outer surfaces with sturdy boards acting as framing. Think about a structure that resembles a hollow door, yet is far more robust.

    The center of this hollow structure/barrier will have to provide a hold for when this is filled, else the center will bulge out and pop. Speaking of filling, one can pour fine gravel inside this structure. Do not make these panels too heavy unless they are never to be moved. It is more useful however to have panels that can be moved with heavy-duty dollies. Another thing one might do is to make one outer surface metal or place a sheet of metal on one or both sides of the structure after completing its core. Passing through metal will take some of the energy out of the round. Other layering materials that would help include sheets of tiles held together with fiberglass.

    http://mindtomachine.blogspot.com/2013/12/homemade-bulletproof-armor-ceramic.html

    The inner core of gravel has the purpose of yawing a bullet and forcing it to dump its energy into the barrier(s) and not you or your family. The depth/width of this barrier is up to you. The thicker it is, the stronger it is, however this thing is going to get heavy and quickly so.

    So, the walls of your home are NOT going to stop bullets, however they WILL reduce projectile energy and likely yaw the bullet. Now the bullet is inside your house and plenty dangerous. Oops, it hits your barrier and the gravel inside. You now stand a real chance of having that bullet stopped / made harmless.

    Think about creating a mobile barriers which can be moved to the location requiring protection.

    As a final thought, I must include my constant chant = Don't forget to have fire extinguishers! Rioters toss Molotov cocktails -- seems to be a tradition or whatever. And too, I wish we all could afford ballistic windows. Short of ballistic windows, there are applicable films to be purchased -- attach these films to existing windows and the film will provide some protection against shatter and breach.

    To see the video below, click on the View on YouTube button inside the window, because at first you are going to be blocked and shown VIDEO NOT AVAILABLE. When you see this, there is a section inside the window that is underlined; when selected this takes you to YouTube where the video will now be shown.

     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  10. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Something to think about. Bullets go through wooden ceilings and floors. Someone gets into your basement, now that person can listen and determine where you are standing, get underneath you, and shoot up through the flooring. This is why many seasoned combatants prefer thirty caliber, heavier bullets -- they wish to shoot through building structures and vehicles. An M14 or FN FAL (7.62 NATO) shoots through buildings, small trees, and the sides of vehicles. A .50 cal. machine gun EATS buildings and vehicles; that is its purpose.
     
  11. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Trying to picture myself reloading the .50 caliber BMG round. I figure I might get four .50 BMG rounds per powder if I reload light on the charge. Heavy charge only three rounds. That's a lot of powder per round in .50BMG. At some 35 dollars per pound of powder...that is a lot of money with each shot.

    I believe that is also a special primer for that round as well.

    I'll pass on ever shooting .50 BMG calibrated rifles.

    Oh...no doubt that the .50 BMG is very very good for what it was designed...but it is not for me.

    But I do like the 7.62mm round also know as the .308.


    My reloading .02,

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  12. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    You would also need a special press because a regular one doesn't have a long enough throw for those big long cases. Loading for a 50 is a entire different set up than a more standard round like a 30-06. Between the cost of the powder, primers and a LOT of powder they are not cheap even when reloaded. We got a great deal on military bullets when they changed the standard bullets out to ones with depleted uranium in their cores. They pulled the bullets and sold them. They were still pricey! Factory loads run anywhere from about $3.50 to $5.50 a round depending on how many you buy.
     
  13. lonewolf

    lonewolf Legendary Survivalist Staff Member
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    houses in the UK are made of brick and concrete block not wood, the weak points are the windows which are mostly double glazed, not sure how any of this would stand up to gun fire.
     
  14. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    Two layers of plywood separated by 4-6in over window leave inner one 4in short of top and accessable then fill with small bags of sand about fist sized is good.
    After shots received broken sandbags will drain and settle, top up at first opportunity, the small bags stop all the sand draining out thus maintaining its integrity.
    Can be applied internally around most of house, empty ply frames are easy to move and fix, small sandbags are easy to move around even kids/old people can do it.

    4 inch will stop rimfire stuff and most pistol rounds, 6 inch stops most 5.56 type rounds but 10 inch thick plus decent plywood boards (mostly the inner one ) are needed for 30 cal stuff more if it is up close and personal!
    Still very do able for most anyone!

    Self sealing if kept topped up!
     
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  15. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    We had a large brick home when we were raising our kids. It had hardwood floors. We got it at a profoundly reasonable price. It was perfect to its function. The kids grew up and other jobs beckoned in states far away. So it goes.

    I now dream of nice places to live, however they will likely not be in this world. My next dream house will be in the next world. Sometimes I long for death. In vivid dreams, I've been shown the places where my departed loved ones live -- such places are much superior to anything here. One of my relatives would only drive a Cadillac. I saw him at an airport parking lot in the next world (they use the most creative imagery) and he has a Cadillac over there. One cannot endure certain realities (the fetus must stay in the womb until it is fully matured), so in dreams one is shown only that which one can absorb without harm. However, I know that their quarters are very, very nice and configurable with a mere whim.
     
  16. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Many years ago I remember doing a sandbag test as I was curious about the power and penetration ability of the 7.62 x 39 mm round fired from a SKS rifle and the 30.06 round fired from a 1903 Springfield bolt action rifle.

    The target distance to the sand bag was 100 yards. The shots penetrated the sandbag through the short side ..and not the length of the bag.

    Several hits from the SKS Rifle... Spire point ammo....none of the rounds penetrated through the sandbag but stopped in the middle of the bag.. The rounds were picture perfect as far as mushrooming deformity...but did not go through the sandbag.

    Now the 30.06 rounds were 168 grain Sierra Match hollow point...a small hollow point on the very end.
    This round penetrated the sandbag....right on through. However it appeared to me to have shed the jacket and went through the other side of the bag...and into the dirt mound.

    That to me represented a significant difference in the velocity and ability of these rounds to penetrate.

    It also satisfied my curiosity about these two calibrations.


    However....I have also shot this Sierra 168 grain match bullet into a watermelon at 50 yards and it only went through...side to side...the melon did not explode as one might expect.

    But.........

    A .35 Remington 200 grain soft tip round nose....the mellon did explode and or rupture....quite dramatically.
    This....................is a hard hitting bullet...obviously the ability to deliver great energy....on impact.


    My non Ishmaelite .02,

    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  17. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The hydro shock effect is rather odd. I've run into the same thing. Pointy fast rounds seem to go through so fast that the hydro shock just doesn't seem to happen every time. A 357 mag or even a flat nose 30-30 seems to actually do more damage as far as the fluid displacement. The 7mm Mag was famous for being a really poor stopper at close range. At 300 yards it was deadly but at 50 yards it just didn't always perform. If it failed to hit a bone it would just put a tiny hole in them. I even saw one time where the hunter had the deer down and it started to get up as he approached it so he shot it again from close range. It took a second shot after that to drop it. As near as we could tell the bullet had just sort of splattered and bounced off on that first attempt at putting it down. These were factory Remington hollow point loads. After that he went to silver tips and that seems to have worked. Pointy bullets with a boat tail have better ballistic coefficients but that same thing seems to limit the amount of force that they impart to soft tissues. ?????
     
  18. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    Texdanm,

    This is precisely the tale told to me by my ham radio friend when he lived here in the next county...before moving to Tennessee. Same calibration...7mm Magnum at about 75 yards.

    His deer just kept walking as if it did not know it had been shot...some 40 yards or so...and then fell over.


    Everyone seemed to be going to 7mm Magnum so he followed suit. He went from a very fine calibration in the .270 to the 7mm Magnum.

    He used to give me his once fired .270 brass and in likeness to 30.06 brass...I would convert it to 7.mm Japanese Arisaka.
    But had no use for 7mm Magnum brass.

    I was a bit stunned by his tale until thinking it through and studying my reloading tables on the 7mm Magnum.

    In a rifle .....308 or .30.06 is as big and fast as I care to go. Ammo available coast to coast..as well as reloading supplies.
    These are also the parent cases for many wildcat calibers..as is also .223.

    I'm just not that interested in keeping up with the latest flash bang....whamadine......gee wiz stuff the magazines are pushing. I will read the articles..but that is about it.

    Thanks,
    Watcherchris
    Not an Ishmaelite
     
  19. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    The 7mm mag is just a strange round that doesn't offer much improvement over a 270 or even a 30-06 until you get WAY out there in distance. In East Texas we are shooting right of ways or in the woods and shots over 300 yards are just few and far in between. I am not interested in having a 300++ reach if it means that I have to sacrifice on the under 100 yard shots.

    It came out when the belted magnums were just the hottest new toy on the block. The bigger caliber belted mags were great if you were hunting big bears, moose and elk at longer ranges or going to Africa on safari. The problem, I think, was that the 7mm bullets were just not designed for the power and speed of the 7mm mag and they didn't hold together well at those speeds.

    Ballistics are funny and few people really understand them. The faster a bullet travels the faster it slows down due to the friction of the air. Even though the 7mm started out at a blazing speed when you got out to the 300 yard mark it wasn't really much faster than a bullet of similar size that started off slower. The 270 and 25-06 jump to mind. You actually reach a point of diminishing returns where more muzzle speed just doesn't offer you any real improvement at range. At the most you might flatten your trajectory a little bit.

    Too often they get speed by lightening the bullet. The lighter bullets are much more affected by air friction than heavier slugs. The old buffalo hunters shot from distances with uncanny accuracy even though their rounds were almost like mortars with their rainbow trajectories. The old 45 -70 was a beast that carried its stopping power well in the down range. A 400 grain bullet doesn't have to be going 3000 FPS to have a lot of knock down power.
     
  20. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    My round of choice for larger game is .308W with a Lapua 185gn FMJBT AT 2700fps 49gn of ADI2209 powder (compressed load) .3moa from my rifle.
    It works at the range and in the field, as I only take head shots everything I shoot drops on the spot
    Got an identical rifle in .223R for smaller game, same .3moa with a 55gn pill at 3300fps with 24gn of ADI2208 drop dead accurate but with soft point sierras but again only head shots.

    With head shots nothing ever runs and no meat is damaged, sometimes I miss taking the shot but I have for the last fourty years held a one shot one kill hunting standard.:D New job means no can hunt until job ends:( so ten months now and counting:(
     
  21. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    You know Texdanm....that which you write is pretty much what I summed up about the 7mm magnum.

    In addition to all that I looked at the case capacity and decided it was too much powder for not a significant improvement in performance ...ie....energy delivered.

    Agree about the 45-70 round. In like manner the .45 long colt is making a come back as a defensive round.

    My friend I mentioned out in Tennessee carries with him daily a Judge revolver loaded with .45 Long colts and slugs in .410 shotgun rounds. I understand the rationale but have little use for a Judge revolver.

    Yeah...to me they really began to sell the belted Magnums as the latest wiz bang whamadine way to go...not for me thanks.
    Apparently a lot of people bought into the hype.

    Also for me ...the .35 Remington in round nose and at it's useful range is capable of delivering great energy on impact. It is a horse...not quiet a .45-70 but still capable of great energy delivery.

    It is a bit of an irony to me that the .45-70 is still going out there today and still filling a niche...even with all the high tech advancements in shooting.

    This is one of the prime lessons which came out of shooting my .50 Hawkin black powder rifle. Also watching and speaking with a number or Civil War Re enactors and their .52, .54 and .58 caliber rifles.

    The ability to deliver massive and useful energy within a useful and practical range....as well as within the skill of the shooter.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelte
     
  22. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    The .35 Remington was always a favorite cal. for deer in Southern Appalachia. A cousin of mine used one to success. He said that his rifle would "fold a deer and drop it." The man never lied.

    For me, I like the concept of round-nose lot of lead exposed for short ranges. If hunting in a forest, why use anything else? If one is shooting across a large wide-open field, OK that's a different story.
     
  23. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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  24. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Here's some hydrostatic shock for you. This is a test of the .308 180 gr. round nose, a Remington loading.
     
  25. F22 Simpilot

    F22 Simpilot Master Survivalist
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    I believe in layers as a defense. I use that tactic in everything I do. Whether that be my website security or how I mitigate malware on my computers. If I ever were to get malware on my computer I have a periodic clone I can pull out. Same with my websites. I backup those suckers all the time and in fact not only are they stored on my home FTP, and several places on the Internet, are stored on a DVD/RW disk every now and then that's kept in a fireproof safe rated for electronics. Everything is also encrypted with a very long password committed to memory.

    I also believe in security through obscurity as a layer. I let the hacker or what ever figure out what he/she is up against.

    So with that. You want layers in your survival situation and the idea about security through obscurity applies here as well. If for example you have a backup generator and every damn light on is in the house, people will flock to your location. Not to mention the smell of chimney smoke can be smelled for miles. So a fortified bunker or something might just be a good idea. But with the layer idea you need at least three entry/exits. And you need to consider the unconventional. It is in fact unconventionalism that wins in a battlefield.
     
  26. watcherchris

    watcherchris Legendary Survivalist
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    A fellow at work needing cash sold me a .35 Remington Rifle...a Marlin 336 I believe it was. I was thinking when I got my Contender in the same calibration it would be a nice match in a 14 inch barrel. Wow!! The Contender pistol in that calibration is a mule...on both ends. What was I thinking??

    Eventually I learned to wear a thin glove when shooting that caliber in my Contender..but it is still ..even in the pistol...capable of great energy delivery. If I don't wear this glove...it numbs my wrist when shooting,...the recoil is that stout.

    I have changed the iron sights out for a red dot in this Contender but have not had time to sight it in due to work obligations.

    I sold the rifle to a young man I know and he has dropped several deer with it...and with the same results you describe...down they went ...all of them.

    The .35 Remington is not as often found as is the 30-30 but it is still out there and available in semi autos and lever guns.
    This calibration too...like the .45 Long Colt and the .45-70 seems want to stand the test of time..in spite of the so called...wiz bang...whamadine super advancements in technology.

    And of course , in like manner to other calibers I shoot, I've learned to roll my own rounds for it.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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  27. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Legendary Survivalist
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    Just think of all the "obsolete" calibers that were in fact more than adequate to the task.

    Remington model 8 in .35 Remington caliber
    e735d912e4f82df5be1aa3870ba69a9c.jpeg

    http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/a-forgotten-classic-the-remington-model-81-review/


    There is also the .351 Winchester ...

    http://rileman1.blogspot.com/2017/12/351-winchester-self-loader-9-x-35mm-r.html

    https://www.gunworld.com/guns/winch...ading-rifle-the-original-police-patrol-rifle/

    e735d912e4f82df5be1aa3870ba69a9c.jpeg

    Classic Police Self-Loaders: Model 8 Versus Model 1907
    https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/23_4/features/Classic-Self-Loading-Rifles-5870-1.html

    ==========================================

    And then there is the .401 Winchester self-loading. The Remington M8 also chambered this puppy fro law enforcement.
    e735d912e4f82df5be1aa3870ba69a9c.jpeg
    The .401 Winchester Self-Loading (Center) with .308 (left) and .45-70 (right).
    Image from Wikipedia

    Winchester model 1910 chambered the .401 Winchester cartridge
    e735d912e4f82df5be1aa3870ba69a9c.jpeg
    e735d912e4f82df5be1aa3870ba69a9c.jpeg

    Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
    200 gr (13 g) 2,141 ft/s 2,037 ft⋅lbf
    250 gr (16 g) 1,875 ft/s 1,952 ft⋅lbf

    ----------------Thump!------------
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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