Shoot Or No Shoot After Shtf?

Discussion in 'Mental Preparedness' started by pacmantacman, Apr 4, 2019.

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  1. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Someone recently implied that after the grid goes down that making a shoot decision will be simple because there will be no law enforcement or legal system. No repercussions. I find that highly unlikely!!

    Actually in my opinion law and order and our current system makes shoot decisions far simpler that they would be post shift!

    Think about it!!! The consequences for shooting someone now is fairly straight forward and predictable. However without law enforcement the complexities grow exponentially. For a wide variety of reasons.

    One reason for this is what happens after a shooting post shtf? Let’s say you were justified, WELL THAT MAY NOT MATTER, the response may be emotionally driven from the deceased friends and family. Vigilantes, social justice, revenge killings, propaganda, assasinations, kangaroo courts, disagreements among involved parties, small wars are all possible outcomes among other things. More restraint in some cases may be the wise decision to prevent a chain of events that effect a great number of people you care about. Wisdom, judgement, and well thought out decisions will be important.

    Not to mention how much harder it may be to determine friend from foe. Tensions will likely be running high, lots of armed paranoid people, nobody wanting to be put at the slightest tactical disadvantage.

    Someone who has a casual approach to making shoot decisions will likely not last long post shtf in my opinion.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    Well..........on the bright side they will last longer then the person they shot.

    On an ever so slightly more serious note, I think the more remote one is residing, while attempting to slog through the SHTF event, the more they need to lean towards, "If in doubt, Take them out".
     
    1. Academy-A-wart
      Q. I take a med that prohibits me from buying a gun. Is there a way to assemble a gun from parts I bought online (if available) from mister X in Maine, mister Y in Florida and mister Z in Arizona ? A modest 22 would suffice.
      Even if I never had to aim it at someone I could get rid of a skunk. I can't figure out why God made skunks. I had one get under my mobile home some years ago and it sprayed under the home. The bedroom had to be vacated. The odor was just too powerful. ........ Thanks
       
      Academy-A-wart, May 2, 2019
  3. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    The answer is yes and no. Yes there will be no legal repercussions and yes there could be reprisals. No people will not be quicker to shoot because of the reprisals. Second people will be politer and less likely to take offense at every single statement. Going back to the old west, calling somebody a lier, because you don't agree with something they say, could get you shot. Calling somebody a name, Racist, Homophobic, or any other name could get you shot. Granted your friends or family may take revenge but that won't help the person that was shot. People became more rude when they could shoot off their mouths, without fear of being shot.
     
  4. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    That's assuming they hit their target and kill them.
    If you miss, you become the target.
    Avoidance would be a wiser choice unless you have no other options.
     
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  5. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    You have likely never gone weeks or months without see another human. For me any human encounter "Even Today" pre-SHTF is full of risks.

    I will continue to believe that any human that I see Post SHTF is far more likely to be a problem for me the not be a problem for me.

    The goal is "SURVIVAL" not coming in second place. The soil will be full of decomposing people attempting to employ the current system of human interaction, to a post SHTF environment.
     
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  6. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    If I had to shoot, I was already a target. If I have to shoot, then it is doubtful I would miss 19 times. Avoidance is always preferred but just sometimes, that is not possible. Mr. Murphy has a nasty way presenting folks with very unpleasant surprises.
     
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  7. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    I do not agree. If I use a gun now to defend my family against an armed home invasion, I will be charged with an offence, I will have my guns confiscated, & my firearms licence will be revoked. If I do the same think post shtf, then the matter is finished, no repercussions that we can not handle in the same manner. We are talking survival here, nothing else matters.
    Keith.
     
  8. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    If I gotta shoot then I gotta shoot!
    If it is a public shoot I will deal with it.
    If it is a private shoot as in no witness's I will hide the body, police the scene and move on!

    There will be no DNA or most any forensics so if not caught red handed probably wont be caught at all.
    Pre or post Apocalypse or whatever I will be avoiding trouble so will be avoiding these sort of situations by being the grey man.
     
  9. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    After the fall there will be a lot of adjustments to make. exactly what adjustments will be varied on the cause and depth of the situation. Anytime, anywhere that the breakdown includes the police and communication systems there are going to be some people that are going to let out the Monster inside that they usually keep hidden. The several thousand that died when Katrina flooded New Orleans were not all drowning victims. Lots of these bodies had bullet holes in them. Even the power workers that went there early to help were shot at and had to leave until the Nationa Guard could go in and shut that stuff down.

    What this means is that people that normally would call the cops are going to have to deal with these monsters for themselves. Each person will have to do what they can and nobody can make the decision for you when the use of lethal force is unavoidable. For some of us, the decision will be easy. For others it may be only in the last moments of an attack will they be able to pull the trigger.

    My best advice for everyone is to first hide. If they can't find you, you don't have to make this decision. This is why I have little use for electric lights after the grid has gone down and would never want to fire up a generator in a post-apocalyptic quiet world.

    Your second effort, depending on the situation may be to retreat. The fight that you don't fight will always be a win. Some things you can abandon and other things you just HAVE to fight for. Just because you leave doesn't mean that you are going to let them live. If you are local and I see you as an ongoing problem I will track you and later hunt you like a prairie dog. Being a sniper has lots of advantages over trying to be a gunfighter in a post-fall period. It is sort of like killing a snake. You don't have to grab it and give it a chance to bite you to kill it. You can back up and just kill the thing.

    If someone tries to rob you, attack you or steal from you it presents you with a problem. If you let them walk away they may well come back. They may just ambush you and kill you. I'm sorry but if you cross me I'm of the mind that I will be better off with you dead and gone. If possible it will be like you just disappeared. that way there won't be any angry family or friends looking to get even with you. This might be another time when delayed settlement might be best. Wait and then kill them someplace else so it isn't immediately associated with you.

    I know there are harsh and hard words but without the rule of law, those that become little more than animals deserve to be treated like animals. If you have a fox killing your chickens you don't give it extra chances you just kill it. If there is a mean or rabid dog in your area mercy may cost you a child. You kill it.

    I hope that after a year or so, no matter the depth of the collapse, people will be able to return to some sort of rule of law. For at least that first year if you allow the animals to escape with a warning you may be killing someone else or yourself.

    I will offer help to those that ask for it and deserve it. That is just who I am and don't expect to have many problems as far as food or water. On the other side if you try to take from me or harm any under my care I will kill you in an instant without warning!
     
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  10. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Do you live in America? If you do Keith forgive me but you don’t have a realistic understanding of what will happen post shooting if someone breaks into your home.
     
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  11. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Keith lives off-grid in New England, Australia. Goddess love him, he has a totally different set of rules to live with. Australia makes California look like a gun-toting Western TV show. It is about as far from Texas as you can get when it comes to defending your home or person.
     
  12. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    People get caught all kinds of ways. Murders were successfully investigated prior to DNA. I’m not saying there isn’t a scenario where you can hide a body and get away with it, I am saying that’s an extremely overly simple plan and optomistic.

    Even if it’s a “private shoot” the list of ways it could be discovered is exstensive. For one the dead guy could have let someone know that he was on his way to your place. And he comes up missing, and your neighbor heard gunshots that same day. It isn’t hard to put two and two together. And if you lie about it, then they can spread any propaganda story, because you aren’t explaining and justifying what really happened. And that’s just one possible negative outcome.

    It is an overly simplistic short sided plan. Again the thought that you can do whatever you want without consequences is ridiculous. Could you get away with it and stack bodies up? Sure. You could also stumble across an abandoned government bunker full of supplies because that also happens in the movies, but in reality it’s highly unlikely.

    Shootings are likely going to have consequences. When you need to shoot, shoot but thinking all things can be fixed with a shovel post shtf is Hollywood.
     
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  13. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Fortunately, I live someplace that has very clear laws concerning the use of lethal force. You can defend your home, vehicle, place of work and your neighbors home from theft, personal injury or attack. With all that said a cop told me one time that there is a lot to be said if there is just one side there to tell the story. Also when in doubt it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

    I may be a little slow drawing my gun but when it comes out I'm going to kill you.
     
  14. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    While I’m totally in for discussing self-defense, this is the type of statement I would not make.
     
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  15. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    To each their own. If you think that I am going to try and shoot the gun out of an attackers hand or shoot him in the arm you are dreaming. I don't draw to threaten and if someone is trying to hurt me death is the one sure way to stop them. I'm a very plain-spoken sort and don't even try to pretty up a horrible situation. If someone attacks you with possible lethal intent what are you going to do?
     
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  16. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    I get the impression that you live where there are humans......is that correct.....???
     
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  17. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    It's doubtful you'll get off 19 shots before they start returning fire.

    There are humans where you live too.
    Maybe not as many as other places, but they are still nearby.
     
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  18. Snyper

    Snyper Expert Member
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    I have no doubt you will continue to think that way, but it really has little to do with what I said.
     
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  19. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    There is no outcome! who is asking? who is telling? who cares?

    Shootings are going to be so common that even if the police still exist they will be backed up to the next millinium and beyond

    Maybe you need a good think about now and then, the police can barely cope now! if it all go's pear shaped they will collapse completely within days if not hours!
     
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  20. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    I know it sounds silly but there is a big difference legally in shooting someone to kill them so there is only one side of the story vs shooting them and targeting an area of the body that will reliably and medically stop them from presenting a lethal threat.

    Death is the result in both cases but one intent is legal self-defense the other is murder. You get in more trouble for what you say than what you do oftentimes. Which is why if you aren’t extremely familiar with legal self-defense it is best to only give basic info before crafting your statement with an experienced attorney on this subject.

    And be advised there are some really uneducated attorneys out there so choose wisely.
     
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  21. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Actually, I am mostly surrounded by Texans though there are a few Yankees here that might be human, that is always debatable. It usually takes them a while to get used to our straight-ahead lingo. If a sweet looking little old lady tells you to mind your manners or she is going to kick your a$$. That probably isn't a threat in Texas, that is a warning and you better take it for REAL.

    Look, where I live a guy that I personally know put up a deer stand on his property and let it be known that he was done with people stealing from him. A few nights later he killed a kid that was stealing copper pipe. He put up a sign declaring his kill and on the sign he told that he would be in that stand several times a week. The bottom of the sign was DO YOU FEEL LUCKY. After years of being robbed every week that was the end of it. There were NO legal problems and no social problems. It might not be humane but it works and is totally Texan.
     
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  22. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    You are not reading what I am writing? I’m not disagreeing about there being a lack of a police response. I’m referencing exactly a scenario where the police are not involved. Although there certainly is another scenario where order is restored and all of the resources law enforcement has works to unravel the case or cases. Even cold cases that could be assigned years later.

    But I’m not referencing a law enforcement response. I don’t think I could have been more clear on that.

    In regard to who cares? Are you kidding? Real bad guys aren’t extras in a movie. We are talking real life scenarios. They are real people with believe it or not friends.

    AND furthermore a casual approach to killing is a recipe for making a BAD shoot decisions, which REALLY will earn you a lot of justified, righteous enemies. Now you’ve given everyone a ligitamite excuse to shoot you and take all of your stuff. They will be considered a hero potentially.

    Now some shootings may be avoidable, some may not, and there may even be advantages in certain situations to pushing a fight to make it happen. But to think of it as if the decision will have no consequences is just unrealistic at best.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  23. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Yes I know everyone is tougher in Texas. I lived in Texas and they told me that, so it must be true. But have mercy on the rest of us who have to work and train to develop our skill sets.
     
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  24. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Where do you live!!?? You evidently don't have a clue about the Texas Castle laws. If you are defending your life there is no statement in the law about where and how you can legally shoot the attacker.

    I have made no bones about where I live and I think you are the only person that doesn't understand that any laws I mention are TEXAS laws. The people on this board come from all over the world. We all have totally different laws to deal with and massively different personal points of view. Keith and lone-wolf along with many others here live in places where guns are almost illegal and their use for defense is totally forbidden as near as I can tell.

    You/we need to understand that YOUR/OUR experiences, laws, and opinions may be totally wrong elsewhere. Anyone reading on any thread here, you need to make sure that what you/we are saying is applicable to where YOU live.
     
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  25. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    I give up. You evidently have less than NO sense of humor and are unable to have a reasonable conversation. Basically, I think that you are a dangerous fool with little contact with reality.

    Once again you are beating a dead horse. We disagree, so what???? You can't bear to have someone that disagrees with you when you are wrong? Stop ruining perfectly good discussions with your problem.

    Once again the horse is dead and thoroughly beaten and I am DONE!
     
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  26. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    I’m completely familiar with the castle law. And if you can predict that when you are involved in a shooting it will be inside your house, I would agree that there is little to no danger of a statement like that being used successfully against you. I don’t think you have a crystal ball to make that prediction though? And it was only friendly advice not meant to admonish you.

    In regard to others on this board being from different places, that’s why I asked to confirm, “Do you live in America?” I don’t think I have made it a mystery that I do live in America and that’s the context that others need to filter my comments.
     
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  27. Keith H.

    Keith H. Moderator Staff Member
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    Well personally I think it shows conviction & makes a strong point. I would not make such a statement because of where I live, but if I had the freedom to defend myself & my family without the risk of punishment, I certainly would make my intentions clearly understood.
    Keith.
     
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  28. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Ironic because I was joking in comments above.

    The fact that verbalizing shooting to stop the threat rather than kill is extremely well established as a good idea.

    What about me reflects not being able to have a reasonable conversation? I made one joke about Texans and that’s it? My apologies good Sir.

    What have I said that makes me a dangerous fool? And what have I been wrong about?
     
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  29. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Unfortunately I am over saturated with reality, however I can’t disagree that I am dangerous and often a fool.
     
  30. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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  31. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    Wow they have friends! so what

    I have had similar problems in the past minus the actual killing bit!
    I am still here:D they did not like there chances.
     
  32. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    It’s unfortunate Tex because I’ve agreed with several points you have made. I feel like I’ve shown respect and articulated my points in a professional and detailed manner.

    I suppose I should have started with a standard “I love Glocks thread” so everyone would know I think like everyone else and would fit in better. Well guess what! I do like Glocks!!! Glocks are awesome!!! Glocks Rock!!!! But what a waist of our time to discuss something we all agree on. I thought I would pick subjects that spark debate. My mistake.
     
  33. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Well at least your considering possibilities now.
     
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  34. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    What give you the idea that I would draw and fire and then stop and give them time to shoot back? I do not brandish my weapon. If I need to draw, I will fire and keep firing until I run out of ammo and need to reload or the attacker has stopped moving --- After I empty my firearm. Unless you are ambushing me from a distance, you are most likely not going to survive to fire your first shot. Nobodies reaction time is going to be fast enough to duck, run for cover and then return fire before I am on them. Just like in hand to hand fighting, those that are afraid to get hit / hurt, lose the battle. Not many are willing to stand and return fire.
     
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  35. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Come on let's lighten up. You have to admit that the GIF is funny. At least between us, we give people a view of the many different ways that people will deal with this problem.

    I'm a fifth-generation Texan and love my home. I would expect that to be true for people everywhere. People always EXPECT a Texan to be bigger than life and a blowhard. When visiting other places I have had people ask me how many oil wells or cattle I owned. I am not shy and love a good laugh and so will go right along with their misconceptions.

    Not everyone in Texas is a redneck but when we are around someone from somewhere else we love to mess with them in a gently humorous way. All that said we really are a different breed. THAT difference is why in Texas you can have and carry a gun while the people in some other places in the US can't even defend themselves without fear of going to prison. We are a hard-headed and somewhat ornery people by nature. If you try and harm us we will kill you and aren't shy about saying it.

    Let's stop fussing it is a good thing to have a variety of answers to most questions.

    [​IMG]LOL...
     
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  36. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Excuse me but your OP was for after the SHTF. Who will anybody be talking to?
     
  37. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Brother I’ve just known a lot of Texans and like to occasionally give them a good natured hard time. If it came off as me not having a sense of humor I miscommunicated.
     
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  38. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Yes that was the scenario but I’m taking in real time about the dangers of posting the comment on this thread. Having nothing to do with the scenario. In post shtf I see little danger in such statements, agreed.
     
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  39. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    See you switched out the main factor, so these replies are out of context and only applied to a fictional condition. The question related to the OP so they would only apply to that situation. Granted if I lived or visited the socialist states, where the criminals or the minorities have all the rights, then I would worry and soil my pants about concealing my speech. Since I live in a freedom loving state, I don't have guard myself or curtain my freedom of speech. I am also smart enough that in a real life situation, name rank and serial number.
     
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  40. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    No it’s the fact that a statement now can be used years later in a civil suit. I deviated from the scenario because I thought it was important and helpful. There is freedom of speech but also potential consequences. I was trying to be helpful.
     
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  41. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    If you are going to worry about down road, why post this type of thread? Post one about the down the road potential. If the climate changes and the Polar bears invade, I will shoot them. That is not the same as I will poach Polar Bears. Fake topic, like fake news verses real life situation. One is like worrying about what to do with P'O'd hobbits (fiction) and what to do with a home invasion (real). It would be real helpful if you are switching direction, let the members know.
     
  42. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    Been there done that long time ago and I don't like the likes of you lecturing me.
    I learnt from those who survived the retreat through France in WWII, Those are some hard men there, damn hard men!
     
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  43. lonewolf

    lonewolf Moderator Staff Member
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    post SHTF the population will be so reduced my problem wont be shooting people it'll be even coming across them, this place is like a ghost town most of the time now never mind after SHTF.
     
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  44. Ystranc

    Ystranc Master Survivalist
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    A lot of the rifled firearms available to UK civilians are totally unsuited to self defence at close quarters but they're well suited to sniping. I have no doubt that there will be firearm related deaths after TSHTF, even in the uk.
    Defending yourself against someone with a rifle, at long range is a non starter. My guess is that ambush will be the way the game is played in the uk giving no-one the opportunity to return fire or defend themselves. It's a bleak prospect.
     
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  45. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Didn’t you call me “yellow” on another thread? Or was it someone else lecturing me? I don’t know what “been there and done that” is supposed to imply but it sounds rather ambiguous.

    I’m willing to take a different tone, but it’s a two way street between us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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  46. Oldguy

    Oldguy Master Survivalist
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    but it sounds rather ambiguous.

    Yep and it will stay that way:D

    No lecturing just stating an opinion based on your posts, if your posts change my opinion may change.
     
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  47. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Your lack of accurate judgment continues and bleeds over from thread to thread. It doesn’t speak to real world experience.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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  48. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    It is interesting, your inability to see that you are grossly out voted on this thread. You speak of real world experience, some of us have 60 or 70 or 80 years of "Real World" experience.
     
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  49. pacmantacman

    pacmantacman Expert Member
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    Well believe what you wish, it’s not about a vote to me it’s about problem solving. 80 years experience at what? I had a 15 year old today greatly impress me and surpass my understanding of many historical issues. Age dose not equal education. And group think does not equal truth.
     
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  50. Sourdough

    Sourdough "ALASKAN"
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    Yes.........I will believe what life has taught me in the last 72+ years. And here is how I solve problems.
    Don't take this personal.........But I am putting you on "Ignore".......I can't see that I am getting any value from your posts.
    See how easily I solved my problem.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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