Starting To Reload -- Need Advice.

Discussion in 'Guns, Knives, Tools, Etc.' started by TMT Tactical, Feb 2, 2019.

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  1. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I have decided to move forward with my reloading plans. Just purchased a 300 Win Mag and a 6.5 Creedmoor. I am looking at the Lyman 8-station turret press. I have not reloaded in 30 + years and that was a single stage press. I had just the bare minimum of knowledge keep me safe but that was about all. I am a bit anal, so I am looking for precision. Best Reloading manuals? Specialty tools (primer pocket cleaner, case neck trimmers, etc.) I am requesting any suggestion and opinions of what I should do for top quality reloading. I have not purchased anything yet, so I have no bias on brands. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Bishop

    Bishop Master Survivalist
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    I would always go with what the min load for the grain bullet you are shooting I have alwsal found the minimum load has always been the most accurate and look at some of the new powders they will help with barrel burn out in the big guns
     
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  3. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Bishop, I am glad you said that. I watch a bunch of reloading videos and have notice lower velocity loads, seem to be more accurate but the reloader's are always trying to get more fps. Is 100 fps that much better? Worth losing some accuracy?
     
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  4. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    Rule number whatever "DO NOT TAKE SHORTCUTS"

    Prep your cases well, cases you have not reloaded before need primer pocket uniforming, flashhole deburring. those you have reloaded before need full length resizing, length trimming, inside neck cleaning, in and out neck deburring and a damn good clean. I say full length sizing not for accuracy but for reliability to ensure any round you chamber can be unchambered without problems, at a range a stuck round is just a pain but in deadly encounter it can mean your life.
    Seat your projectiles deep and well clear of the lands, see above.

    Well measured and lightly compressed loads are usually most consistant and clean internal casenecks grip projectiles consistently

    there you are a few little nuggets to go by:)
     
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  5. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    @Oldguy

    Thank you for the tips. I am anal when it comes to my safety. I already have a wet tumbler and plan to make sure the cases are good and clean. It is a two drum tumbler. Wife has one drum for her jewelry stuff and I have the other drum for my stuff (brass). I plan to get an electronic scale with calibration weights, Like President Regan, trust but verify. Here are some of the items on my "To Buy List". The list is still growing. What is the best / most comprehensive reloading manual?

    A) K&M professional Flash Hole Uniformer
    B) WAOAW Digital Scale
    C) Lee primer Pocket Cleaner
    D) Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure
     
  6. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    A Lee primer pocket "Uniformer" is needed as many cases have shallow primer pockets and regular primers are too high to fit flush. Proud primers can be very troublesome:mad: only need to do it once per case though
    An old bore brush in a cordless drill is great at inside neck cleaning
    And I always trim cases .1mm short again for reliability

    All my rounds feed and chamber well and can be unchambered unfired without issue.
    I get approx. 10 reloads per case, in my .308W I get 2700fps += 5fps with 49gn of ADI2209 powder pushing a Lapua 185gn FMJBT projectile, it is a compressed load and a rather hot load but gives me one hole groups out to 300m and less than 2in groups at 500m, my usual competition distance.
    I have recently binned all my used cases and have started collecting new once fired brass but not in a hurry as I have ceased competing.
     
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  7. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Wow, 10 reloads per case does cut down on the cost. Yes I am El Cheapo and still want accuracy too. Now I can only hope for that kind of shooting (skill and accuracy) from my Creedmoor or the 300 Win Mag. I will focus on the 6.5 first, as it is the cheapest to load of the two. Now I will have to wait until much later to get a chronograph. Basic first and then velocity work up, if it is needed. What issue with the case mandates it be discarded? Are the primer pockets blown out or what is the issue? Granted I am over joyed at the thought of getting 10 reloads but I am curious what I should expect.
     
  8. Bishop

    Bishop Master Survivalist
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    No if you can't hit it it doesn't matter how slow or fast it goes
     
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  9. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    Cases stretch with each firing, eventually there is an internal ring/thin spot about half way up the case, at that stage you are looking at case separation and all the dramas that that involves none of them good.
    I detected the first ring at the eight reload, two more at the ninth reload and six at the tenth reload, discarded all seven hundred cases then and rebarrelled the rifle at the same time. Currently working up a new load for the new barrel with new brass.

    The 6.5Creedmore may not give you as many reloads as it is an under-bored case.
     
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  10. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Great advice and replies, please keep them coming. Now what is an "Under-bored case". Even if I get just 5 reloads that will drop my case cost to under $0.16 per shot for brass. Does anybody have an opinion of Sellier & Bellot brass. I plan to purchase 100 rounds of the factory ammo and then reload the brass. This would a fairly cheap way to get started reloading. I am also looking at the Hornady 140 grn. Match bullets for my starting load. What reloading manual(s) should I get?
     
  11. watcherchris

    watcherchris Master Survivalist
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    TMT tactial. First off no matter who's maker is the brass from ...you need to know if it is Berdan Primed or single hole primed. Most USA companies make brass with the single hole primer pocket. The Berdan or two hole primer pocket requires a different type of de priming tool than is found on most USA Made rigs.

    Also most accuracy books I've read instruct one to seat the bullets out further in the case ..not deeper....so as to not have as far to jump when fired from the case to the rifling land engagement. One of the limits here is the magazine well ....you can only seat them out so far and still fit them in the magazine well....unless you choose to load them singly ...one at a time into the breech.

    6mm and 6.5 mm seem to be calibers which are very popular for certain accuracy ..and also have a wide bullet selection.

    I enjoyed reloading for .243 Winchester which is a 6mm calibration.....nice bullet selection for this caliber which is a necked down .308.

    Nothing wrong with being tight with your monies..particularly if one has more important obligations or young uns tugging at ones britches so to speak. Get the best bang for your buck spent. Nothing wrong with that ..and ask questions.

    Your call..but if you are prepping ...stock up on bullets, powder, primers,...and tools....store them carefully clean and dry.

    An olde cabinet stores much of my precision gear...calipers, stones, dies, etc etc...in my garage.

    Other stuff is in five gallon buckets with lids on them.

    Bought another three boxes of 500 count .22 long rifle in the last couple of weeks and just put it away.

    Will do the same over the next few weeks.


    Thanks,
    Watcherchris

    Not an Ishmaelite
     
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  12. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    Now what is an "Under-bored case".
    That is cade capacity verse bore, in .30 cal the .308W case gives the best bang, a larger case and there is lots more powder for little gain and smaller capacity and there is too little powder capacity to really use the .30 cal it is just an efficiency thing not too important.

    Also most accuracy books I've read instruct one to seat the bullets out further in the case ..not deeper....so as to not have as far to jump when fired from the case to the rifling land engagement.

    Yes if one is a target shooter you are correct but if one is into survival and this is a prepper/survival forum reliability is a bit more important than ultimate accuracy. Early on in my shooting life I got sick of failures. Afew things I do are not for pure accuracy but reliability, seating primers properly matters as a proud primer can detonate on chambering, can puncture on firing sending hot gas and molten primer metal back towards shooter and sometimes jamming the firing pin, a case may also jam if just a touch too long at the lands creating much higher pressures as normal and jamming in the chamber so I trim .1mm short
    For the first decade of my shooting life I was the guy with the problems not finishing a match due to a stuck case, premature firing, projectile stuck in barrel etc etc! After learning I never failed because of my rifle, pistol, shotgun or my ammo.

    Keeping the projectile clear of the lands never seemed to make any difference to my accuracy
    What made a difference was cleaning the inside of the casenecks, the projectile contact area, carefully measuring the powder charge and using all the same cases. Early on I noticed two distinct points of impact about an inch apart out at 300m plus ranges, turned out to be the difference between Remington and Winchester cases so I just bought a large batch of Remington cases and that was solved.
    Again I was playing with my freebore distance as up to then I had had the projectiles just touching the lands By seating the projectiles deeper I lightly compressed the powder load and suddenly my groups shrank, it was load compression not the freebore.:)

    It takes lots a effort to learn the little things over the years
     
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  13. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    I am still shooting .22LR stuff I bought in the early 80's
    Kmart was clearing out all there ammo as they were to cease selling any gun stuff
    Got a really really good deal and my old cruiser got a real beating dragging it all home, only got about 11k left and as I shoot less now it will last a few more years:) buying price was 50c per 50rds
     
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  14. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Wow, all you folks are being super and helping me learn a ton. Many thanks. I did learn and agree with Oldguy, not to mix brass. I have already select tools to clean and prep the inside of the brass (neck and primer hole). I have selected tools to clean and debur both the inside and outside of the primer pocket. I know not to get the Berdan primers but to make sure I get the Boxer primer cases and the correct size primers (small rifle or large rifle primers).

    I will be starting out with 100 rounds of Sellier & Bellot 140 grn. SP. I will use these factory loads to test fire, sight in the scope (Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6-24 x 50 MOA reticle). I will then select primers and bullets to test load in the S&B cases.. I do have a small advantage that there are several YT reloader's working up loads on the same make and model rifles I have. So I am hoping they will help narrow the search down a bit. I know no two rifles will be exactly the same but I do hope they will save me to time and money in narrowing the search for the best load for my rifles.

    In one of my past life's I worked as a Millwright and I have many precision tools. I have a 12 inch level that reads in 0.001 inch. I have dial indicators, micrometers, calipers and I do really value my tools. They helped me put food on the table and paid the rent.

    I did have to scratch one item. The Lyman 8 station turret press is now off the list. After watching several review video's, I discovered it severely leaks decapped primers. Since I will be reloading inside the house, I do not want spent primers falling all over the floor. It looks like the Lee 4 station Turret press is going to win out. The Lee appears to be the best bang for the buck. I can deactivate the progressive indexing function and use it as a single stage for rifle (precision) rounds or us the progressive function for less precise hand gun rounds. If you see me heading down the wrong path, please feel free to comment. I have no brand loyalty and nothing is bought yet. I plan to make my purchases late next week, barring any unseen events biting me in the tush.

    I do want accuracy but reliability is the primary must have result. I will surrender a super small group size to make sure the ammo goes bang every time. I do not want to experience any of he issues oldguy posted about. Thanks but not thanks, I will pass on those issues.

    Now does anybody have any recommendations are where to get the best prices on brass, primers and bullets? My location is Arizona, so shipping costs could be an issue based on supplier distance. Please keep the comments and suggestion coming, I can use all the help I can get. Once again, I appreciate the help.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  15. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    I am in Australia so I cant help in the cost and supply bit but I found Lapua projectiles were cheaper and more consistant than most othere including Sierra. As I am a precision type of shooter I only ever use FMJBT projectiles in .308w when hunting bigger stuff and Sierrs JSP in .223R and always take head shots when actually hunting so projectile construction is irrevelent to me or my prey.

    For a long time I used a friends home made .223 63gn JSP projectiles made from used .22LR cases, they did not look the best but they worked a treat and only a few cents each, sadly cancer put a stop to there production.

    Just get small quantaties until you settle on a load then when you are sure you have the load right make a bulk buy you can make big savings when buying in bulk, over here we can get 25% off if we spend a lot probably similar there, oh and waving cash works to if you are there in person:D

    PS Do your research well so when you make contact with a supplier you don't sound like a novice/wanker.
     
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  16. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    I really like the Novice Wanker tip. LOL. I do plan to do a lot of research and then make my first buys in small quantities to verify the work up. I like to think I am a precision shooter (I have never competed) as I have only needed an extra shot once and that was to end the critter's suffering. It was a kill shot but not an instant kill. I only varmint hunt (for now) as I don't need the meat. Now it is interesting that you prefer head shots and others swear by lung shots. I now prefer head shots too, after I gut shot that one ground hog. If I am off target, the critter in not wounded and if I have done my job, it is an instant kill.

    I am looking for both top accuracy but also energy dump potential. FMJ does a great job during flight but can over penetrate the critter. Sometimes hollow point work and some times they don't. Soft points do tend to be more reliable in the expansion department. I am not telling you anything you don't already know but I do tend to let my typing drift with my mind. With a head shot it does not matter but I like to have my options open with regard to ammo. A snap shot at an approaching predator and I would like to feel the bullet is going to drop the critter.

    Sorry you lost your reloading friend, good deals and good friends can be hard to find. I will check into the Lapua projectiles. I did spot some Speer 140 grn bullets with a 580 (? memory) ballistic coefficient and was reasonably priced. I don't seem to fine many YT video of reloader's using the Speer brand, any word of wisdom to share?Once I do find a cartridge and powder that works in my rifles, I will purchase in bulk. Two reasons to buy in bulk, One price for us El Cheapo's and two, to stock pile before the liberals get control again. Currently I do not have to register when I buy ammo or ammo components but that will change on a federal level when (not If) the liberals gain control of congress and the Presidency. California is already doing that, so it is only a matter to time until it happens on a federal level. Just one more reason to reload.
     
  17. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    I use the softpoints in .223R as the .223 has little energy available but in the .308W with plenty of energy available I like the skull cracking ability. In my early hunting days had a hollowpoint blow up on a camel skull, dropped it dead first but a few minutes later the sucker resurrected itself and stood up, a mates .338Lapua in the heart dropped it again. After examination the hollowpoint had only penetrated two inches before disintergrating on skull bone
    I just like my bullets to get to where I aimed them but each to there own, no bears or other large dangerous game here as a rule
    We got some very large feral pigs, buffalo and crocs here though
     
  18. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Since I do own a 223 wylde, I am very interested in your experiences with the soft point ammo and the cost of reloading this caliber. Right now I am using wolf 62 grn. hollow points, but I do want to develop some accurate loads. I have a 24 in barrels for a AR 15 lower that I have and I want to setup this configuration as my small varmint rifle. I also have a 7.62 x 39 that I want to be able to reload too. The 7.62 will be a short to mid range rifle (100 to 250 yards). The 6.5 Creedmoor is going to be my long distance rifle. In my research (ballistic Gel testing) I have discovered that many of the hollow points do not expand or completely disintegrate shortly after impact. I do admit I am completely surprised with the camel getting back up. That would have freaked me out. I do think I want to focus on bullets that are accurate and hold together during expansion. Currently I am seeing good reports on the Speer Gold Dot bullets but I want to compare them to some of the Hornady 140 grn. bullets. Pennies per round difference do add up when you start buy buying a few thousand at a time. The bullets first and foremost must go where I aim them. Then they must do the job with the first shot. Except for the 300 Win mag, none of my rounds are big bore heavy hitters.

    I would classify the feral pigs, buffalo and especially the croc's as dangerous predators. We have big cats, many species of bears and even a few wolves to contend with, which is why I do want accuracy and terminal expansion. I do plan to make one shot kills but I also want a contingency plan (ammo) for any surprise's from undetected predators. I ave never experienced a predator hunting me, but I have read of this happening. I would like my ammo to be able to deal with a sudden / snap shot situation. Center mass is much easier to hit when rushed.
     
  19. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    I cant really say how good the softpoints are as I always head shoot and they all work just fine.
    If a lot of ammo is used on a regular basis making ones own projectiles would be worth it

    Fully mature bull camels have hard heads but a FMJBT will drop them dead at most any range, longest confirmed kill on a camel was 1128m and the sucker never knew what hit him, he was sel
     
  20. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    I have little experience with the AR platform but all rifles are centred around the barrel.
    A heavy barrel improves accuracy and a longer barrel improves velocity potential and a stainless barrel improves durability.
    that's about it,

    My hunting rifles are 26in heavy barrels on Howa actions for most and my competition rifle in .308W is a 30in extra heavy stainless barrel on a howa action and an homemade aluminium stock, a bit ugly but very good, on a sunny day with the sun behind me I can actually see the shiny projectile and the vortex surrounding it arc its way down range, fascinating watching the vortex drift.

    Maybe just go a Remington bolt action for accuracy.
    Your money your choice:)
     
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  21. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    The AR platforms are my force multiplier selection, not really a hunting weapon except for varmints. The 24 inch barrel is a heavy SS barrel and I am configuring it to be California legal (turned off the adjustable gas port to turn it into a side charging bold action). This rifle is for when I go to visit my son, who lives in San Diego. We do not hunt, just range shoot. I can always open back up the port when I get back home.

    I cannot imagine a 30 inch extra heavy barrel. Your 308 must weigh about 30 pounds. Great for a bench rest shoot but I wold hate to have to lug that around. Now I have a question, why 30 inches? Not challenging the selection just curious. From what I am reading all the powder would have been burned and max velocity reached in a shorter barrel. Am I wrong in this fact?

    Next question and again not challenging but what is the purpose of shooting camels? Are they good to eat? I don't have any special attachment to camels or feel they should be some protected species but I am curious as to why hunt them? Besides them being butt ugly, is there a special challenge to hunting them?
     
  22. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    Nothing is worth losing accuracy.
    Get as many different manuals as you can, because they will list different components.

    Then you can tailor the loads to suit your rifles and their intended purpose.

    Work up to the higher loads until you find one the gun likes.

    There are lots of variables so any change you make can affect accuracy and the point of impact.

    There's nothing wrong with sticking to single stage presses.
    You won't have as much trouble getting it adjusted and unless you shoot large volumes of ammo there's not a huge advantage to turret presses.
     
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  23. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    There's this bore capacity vs. case capacity thingy. One wants their powder to burn in the barrel, not in the atmosphere. Atmosphere burning adds next to nothing in increased bullet velocity, it only makes the load louder and increases the size of the fireball past the muzzle = total waste. Two barrels of the same length, one is .243 and the other .308 in diameter, the .308 has more volume to burn powder. The .308 Win / 7.62 NATO gets a bullet up to sufficient speed with a 20 inch barrel -- even an 18 inch barrel will suffice (vel. loss isn't grand). Let me tell you, in a .243, you'll not get your powder money's worth out of a barrel under 24 inches; a 22 inch barrel will suffice, but you WILL sacrifice velocity with most powders.

    The .308 is accurate mainly due to its case being full of powder. Add filler to the case of the 30-06 and suddenly it becomes much more accurate. Full cases are far more consistent in producing the same velocity time after time after time again. Engineers and accuracy nuts have spent god only knows how many hours/years on this phenomenon. It's just so.

    Do compressed loads often produce more pressure? Yes. Do cartridges with their bullets seated out to the beginning of the rifling produce more chamber pressure? Yes. However, they are more accurate, therefore watch carefully the amount of powder you use and should you have to use filler, then use filler.

    Resonant frequency of the barrel affects accuracy. Bull barrels deform much less, but weight more, duh! With hunting / war-fighting diameter barrels, you gotta experiment until you find your weapon's sweet-spot. And if you swap to a new barrel? Then, start all over again.

    Big question: Do you want target accuracy? At what distance will you be engaging the enemy or deer? Don't put a lot of work into coming up with a mega-accurate load when such is totally unnecessary.

    Unfortunate fact: some bullet types vs. barrel type will be incompatible when going for accuracy. You'll run yourself crazy trying to get this combo to work. Know when to throw up your hands and say, "These bullets are never going to work for me using this rifle!" Try another combo ... unless you are into developing super high blood pressure.

    Action type: Bolt actions are often more accurate and fire-form your brass. If the rifle's action deforms during cartridge detonation, then out the window goes your accuracy.

    Other accuracy-improving steps you can take if you have found an accurate rifle and the ammunition it likes: Glass bed the rifle's action to the stock. Free-float the barrel.

    If you are shooting little white tailed deer from a tree stand at short distance, then all that I said above is hot air to you. Just sight-in your rifle / scope combo. Truth is, you may not even need a scope until you hit your 40s and must then depend on bifocal glasses. Put an aperture sight on the rifle and you'll have venison in your freezer. Having a gun smith put a good aperture sight on your rifle will bring you much happiness ... and quick shots!

    If your goal is short distance perimeter defense, then your number one goal is to have ammunition that will NEVER ever fail to feed'n'fire. It's your skin and that of your friends and family, therefore ZERO FAILURES !!! When it hits the fan, you are going to have to send a bunch of lead downrange and this must happen without any jams or failures to feed the next round. And, don't go mountaineering with cotton clothesline rope.
     
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  24. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    I didn't see anyone on the above comments go into the realm of retained energy . Accuracy is very important , but so is making a quick kill . One of our survival group guys brought in two rifles , amo and reload dies to add to the stash about 4 days ago . One being a 30/06 we immediately got out my reload book and looked up to see how far we could down load the amo for it . When distance isn't much of a factor I always prefer a slow traveling bullet over a fast one . I have seen critters even with a good accurate hit take too long to drop with a fast bullet . Get your retained energy in the correct spectrum and they often will collapse in their tracks .
     
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  25. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    Retained energy will depend on bullet mass and the bullet's sectional density. Will the bullet's ogive give it free passage through our atmosphere? Does the bullet have a boat tail to reduce the phenomenon of drag?

    https://www.accurateshooter.com/ballistics/tangent-vs-secant-vs-hybrid-ogive-bullets/

    Earth's atmosphere at sea level is a thick affair in the mind of a bullet. If he weighs less than 100 grains, the air humans need to live will do Mr. Bullet down too soon. Mercies begin when he goes over 165 grains. And if he is to knock holes in belligerent barriers to slay malevolent monsters a weight of well over 200 grains will serve him all the better.

    https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/338-lapua-250-gr-bthp-match#!/
     
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  26. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    When distance isn't much of a factor, the heavy round nose exposed lead bullets kill. They just kill.

    Witness the .308 Win. 180 gr. round nose:

     
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  27. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    Another consideration is recoil . My experience has been the lighter the recoil the more you can relax your muscles , and easier to fire that shot timed with your heart beat . You want the adequate killing power but don't want to sacrifice accuracy because of tense muscles .
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  28. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Wow, a lot of super information and points to consider. Much of the info I have read but I had not read or heard about using a filler in a cartridge. So, Old Geezer please enlighten me on fillers.
     
  29. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    best advice.......find someone local that is currently loading and spend time with them; start at the local conservation club or shop that sells the equipment. Ask questions, look at their equipment, understand their pattern, buy a pizza and make a night or two of it. What would they change if they could?? Single stage versus turret versus automatic?? Oldguy brought up a good point regarding the distance between the projectile and when it engages the rifling; each rifle is different and has it's sweet spot, so you will need an appropriate measuring tool to determine the different seating depths and engagement distance........and how it impacts your accuracy.

    As you already have some reloading experience that will stand you in good stead, but ask yourself why did you stop? When you were reloading, what were your "bottle-necks" or phases that took more time, were more critical??? Can you change them now?

    and................good luck.............have fun, and time spent reloading is much more beneficial than time spent drinking, watching tv or chasing women (not sure about that last one but thought I'd toss it in anyway)
     
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  30. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    A bit of an up date on my reloading progress. I have selected the Hornady ELD X 143 gr. for teh 6.5 Creedmoor. It has .625 BC. The bullet for the 300 Win. Mag will be the Hornady ELD X 212 gr. .It has a BC of .661. Since this is my first attempt at reloading for these rifles, I figured I would start with the hunting projectile with the best bullet coefficient rating. Since these are intended for hunting, even tough 99,9% will be shot at the range, I did want to focus only on hunting type projectiles. If the ELD X does not work out, then I will try out the Speer Gold Dot, they have really good BC rating too and proven expansion. I have selected and purchased three powders. For the 223 Wylde and the 7.62 x 39 I selected Hodgdon H335. The 6.5 Creedmoor and the 300 Win Mag will be fed Alliant Reloder 16. The pistol calibers will be fed Alliant Power Pistol. Since this is completely new to me and my rifles, I decided to use powders that would work for as many calibers as possible. Did I mention I am El Cheapo? Not a big fan of Hazmat fees and I had to start somewhere, so I used a few reloading / bullet manufacturing sites and a couple of YT Video's and gave it my best shot. I do plan to do the load testing during the hottest months of the summer. I want max heat load pressures during the test. I don't want to do a work up at 60 degrees F and then shoot at 120 Degree F. Also it will take me that long to save for and purchase all the selected equipment. The big budget killer is the Labrader Chronograph. That one hurt. Since all my testing will be done on a public range, this choice seemed to be the best option. I have to admit I am not a fan of hanging test equipment off the end of my barrels, so that also led to the Labrader. Even tho it goes against my cheap nature, I will spend when I feel it provides the best benefit. I have gotten my dies, both are Hornady Custom Grade dies. I also got the Hornady Microadjust Seating attachment. Purchased the Lyman Case trimmer w/ 9 pilots and a whole bunch more little items. They are slowly trickling in. I did select and purchase 100 Peterson Brass cases for the 6.5 CM. They are between Lapua Brass and Starline Brass in quality and price (based on other people testing). We will see how well they measure up, literally and figuratively. I will measure them as soon as the rest of the measurement tools arrive. Well that is it for now. I really do appreciate all the information you all are taking the time to share with me. Thanks again.
     
  31. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Very good suggestion. Next time I am at the range I will see if they know of some GOOD reloading clubs / groups. I had to stop reloading due to having children and needing to go back to school and get my degree. There was just not enough time or money to continue shooting or reloading. Guns and equipment was sold to help pay for tuition and supplies. Commute was 60 miles per day, 5 days a week. Even back then fuel was not super cheap, like I am. Now that I am retired, there is the time and if I am careful, there is the money. I have already purchased the Lock N load OAL gauge and the appropriate test cartridges. Did I mention I am a bit anal about my safety and precision? I will know and have documented everything there is to know about my rifles, before the first shot is fired through them. I have even pulled of the butt pad to see how the butt stock is configured. Since this is a polymer stock, it will become front heavy, once a bi-pod and the scope are installed. I wanted to see if I could add weight to the butt stock. I discovered the butt stock is completely hollow, so I can add weight. Now here is a question --- What would you all feel would be a good thing to conceal/ hide / carry in the butt stock. It does take a screwdriver to remove the butt pad, so it would not be a quick access storage place.
     
  32. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    storing something in a hollow stock..... if you just want to counterbalance I would find canvas bag and fill it with sand; less shifting and moving. If you want it for actual storage.......some extra money, small repair kit...possibly batteries. If this will be a hunting rifle, include some simple fire-making supplies (steel wool, striker flint).
     
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  33. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    The rifle is intended for hunting purposed but most likely will be mostly used at a range. i would like to store some items, i think a fire kits would be good, maybe a personal purification water straw. I think there could be a lot of really good items stored there. Battery might be a really good choice too. Once the items were selected and placed into a small container. The container could be inserted into the stock and then have a filler poured around the container. I would be sure to coat the container with some kind or release agent to facilitate the container's removal. I liked your suggestions.
     
  34. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    That makes no sense because energy is dependent on velocity.
    Shot placement means more than velocity as long as the bullet penetrates the vital organs.

    Whether or not the animal "goes down" immediately depends on many other things.
     
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  35. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    You'll be better served by others. I am no longer up-to-date on these matters. It's been a forever since I reloaded.

    This Lalakai appears to be giving you some excellent advice. Listen to people like him.
     
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  36. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    Retained energy is a complex subject and I am not qualified to try to explain this , Perhaps with some research you can find an expert to explain this . Killing is more than just shooting a big fast bullet .
     
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  37. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    very true. Years back the FBI completed a report on "one-shot knock-downs" looking at the different pistols. Without the advances in projectiles we have now, it was shown that the .357 magnum had a 97% chance of putting a person out of a fight, with one shot. The .44 magnum came further down the list because the projectile was traveling too fast, not causing as much damage as it passed through. Improved projectile capabilities will impact this report, but the basics are the same; a balance between projectile and speed, to maximize the impact without penetrating through and through.

    I think I had seen a picture from "Old Geezer" where he had a series of milk jugs set up at the range. A poor man's test of penetration and expansion will use a line of milk jugs filled with water, and you shoot into the line. Eventually the slug will come to rest in a jug, giving you a good idea of expansion and also penetrating power. Word of caution.....don't stand close lol as the first couple jugs get ripped apart and you'll get wet.

    and if you were wondering, the .45 came in second at 95% chance one-shot knock-down. These statistics were compiled from actual shootings. Also realize the penetration differences between a human and a deer....or bear.......we're a bit more squishy and easier to punch holes in :eek:
     
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  38. Old Geezer

    Old Geezer Master Survivalist
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    The .44 failed due to the bullet being so heavy that it retained its energy in the form of momentum, thus the bullet over-penetrates a goat or a human.

    A higher velocity / lower mass bullet dumps its energy quickly -- sometimes far too quickly. Varmint calibers such as the .223 can blow up in the shoulder of a deer. Hollow-points will. FMJs pass straight on through the animal. Thus varmint rounds are banned from deer hunting. In military situations, wounded soldiers will over time become disabled, thus no longer a threat. Bullets weighing under 100 grains do not penetrate cover or helmets at distance.

    The .357 magnum bullets are heavy enough to penetrate, however they dump their energy (if hollow-point) at the correct depth of tissue penetration. The .357 mag will also shatter bones.

    The .45 Auto will stop people if the bullet is a well-configured hollow-point. FMJs in .45 auto are poor man-stoppers irrespective of the legends. I know a case where a felon took three .45 auto rounds to the chest, yet still returned fire before going down -- the bullets were FMJs. The 9mm firing FMJs is totally a joke. One fellow related to me the story of his trying to bring down an aggressor with his Army-issued 9mm loaded with FMJs. The machete-wielding aggressor almost got to him. This soldier dumped at least eight rounds into the enemy. It's frightening to even talk about such.

    I want my handgun to simply be a short rifle.
     
  39. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    nice explanation Old Geezer.....you get the gold star
     
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  40. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    Some on this forum may not know what we are talking about so I will give a basic explanation of retained energy . It is the energy expelled into the body by the bullet . If the bullet leaves the body from the other side , from that point all energy left in the bullet is wasted energy . The longer the bullet is in the body traveling through the more energy is expelled into the body . A fast bullet doesn't have as much time to expel it's energy . This retained energy has a lot to do with how quick a animal will drop . Some bullets will kill quicker say 200 yards down from the muzzle than they will if the same animal was shot exactly the same at 10 feet . This is because the bullet has slowed down to dump it's energy into the animal . I was just earlier trying to point out you can overload a bullet depending on caliber, type animal you intend to shoot and at what distance you expect to shoot .
     
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  41. TMT Tactical

    TMT Tactical The Great Lizard !
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    Keep talking folks, I am learning a lot. The bullet expansion and the BC is what I was focusing on for my bullet choices. The weight (grains) was important, based on my limited knowledge on energy dump (Terminal Ballistics) and my experience with a varmint (ground hog) and a 22-250 at about 50 yards. The varmint was gutted but not instantly killed. The only time I have had to use a second shot. All my other ground hog shots were at longer distances and thus, the bullet had slowed down a bit or maybe I made a better hit. I have chosen just about the heaviest grain bullet in each caliber. The 300 Win Mag could be a bit heavier but I think 212 grains is big enough and the BC (Bullet Coefficient --- how aerodynamic it is) is outstanding. Old Geezer, never short sell past experience. What has been forgotten from the past, will be rediscovered in the future. I am still curious about shell case filler. It sounds like good info to know about. If there was a need in the past, there could be a need again in the future. I just received my Digital Anvil Micrometer (used to measure the wall thickness of the case neck). Just one more expensive toy, er tool, for down the road. Was it absolutely needed, no but then again, it will help eliminate a possible variable in the reloading process. I am a contradiction in thoughts. I am reloading like a precision long distance shooter but who plans to use the firearms and ammo for game shooting. Do I need 1/4" MOA at 100 yards, to shoot Bambi (I like venison meat) no, but the most accurate ammo will allow for my getting older and a bit less steady. If I can get 1/4" from the bench, then 1" in the field in not be a miss or injured animal. Anyway, please keep the discussion going, I learn from every post. Thanks all.
     
  42. Oldguy

    Oldguy Expert Member
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    Missed this post until today so my reply
    30in with handloads in a .308w gives me 30-06 ballistics and most of the weight is centred around the bore, 17lb and a bit is total weight, the extra length is only a bonus with handloads and a slower powder.
    Exact load was 49gn of AR2209 pushing a 185gn lapua FMJBT AT 2750fps with a less than 5fps variation, compressed load and being stainless the barrel is still good after 7,000rds not new but I was still getting less than 3in groups at 500m.

    Camels are pests in parts of Australia and I had been having a discussion with my mate while driving out bush, he challenged me to head shoot one at 1,000m only one available was at the max of my laser 1,128m so that's the one I shot.
    Mate witnessed the hit with his spotting scope. I surprised myself with that one.
     
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  43. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    I don't need anyone to explain "retained energy".

    I know enough about terminal ballistics to know what you said doesn't make sense.

    There are many variables involved when an animal drops on impact, and "retained energy" is one of the least important.

    Saying a slow bullet is better in that regard is misleading.

    Shot placement has much more to do with it.
    Bullet construction is another important factor, since it has to penetrate deep enough to hit something vital.

    If the impact significantly affects the central nervous system, the animal will go down no matter what the projectile or impact velocity.

    A 22 LR 40 grain bullet to the brain will drop a deer faster than a 50 caliber 400 grain through the lungs.
     
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  44. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    Gut shots aren't fast killers.

    Varmint bullets are made to expand explosively on small animals that won't be used for food, and to keep from damaging hides on larger fur bearing animals.

    Bullets for big game are designed with "controlled expansion" to transmit energy but still pass through since most bleeding will come from the exit wounds.

    A good blood trail can mean the difference in bring home some meat or losing the animal.

    Most bullet manufacturers will tell you the ideal range of impact velocities to get the performance you need for your intended purposes.

    That's another good reason to have as many manuals as possible.
     
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  45. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    Accuracy is what you get when you duplicate the same series of actions as close to identically as possible. Everything has a small effect and as you eliminate "differences you close down your group size. Case length and volume matter. that is why you don't use different brands of cases when you are trying to shrink your groups. I have even gone to the point of measuring the volume of cases from the same manufacturer to shrink my group. There will be tiny differences in lots even from the same company.

    You float your barrel because the wood stock changes with temperature and humidity and that will make a tiny difference. When I used to shoot silhouette targets I always pointed my revolver straight up and sort of wiggled it before then lowering it for my shot. Unless I was shooting a compressed load that movement made the powder gather more uniformly to the rear of the case for best ignition.

    what you can do with reloading if you are not careful is waste a lot of time trying to achieve groups that don't matter. The groups that I got off of a table on sandbags were many times smaller than I could ever shoot in the field. If the best that you can do offhand standing is a 3" group at 100 yards the ability to shoot a group off sandbags that are 1/2 Minute of angle is useless. I had three different types of reloading. I had plinking loads, hunting loads and target loads.

    Plinking loads were thrown by a powder measure into mixed cases and were usually fairly light loads. Hunting loads were each weighed into cases that were from the same lot and had been fired the same number of times. The cases are all sized and trimmed. My target loads may not be sized at all. they are fireformed to the one single rifle chamber. They were trimmed to length and everything about them was duplicated to the most exact parameters possible to make them just alike. They were usually shot in guns that were designed and then tuned to offer the best repeatable accuracy.

    Reloading offers you cheaper ammo so you can shoot more. It allows you to load for a specific weapon to get the best for that specific weapon. It can also make for a fascinating hobby in search of perfection.
     
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  46. Snyper

    Snyper Well-Known Member
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    That's not "retained energy"
    That's transmitted energy.

    That's simply false, since a fast bullet is more likely to expend all it's energy inside the target in the tiny fraction of a second it takes to expand.

    More misinformation.

    Unless the bullet self destructs before penetrating deep enough, more velocity will always result in more damage because the bullet has more retained energy (using the true definition).

    Here's some real information.
    Terminal ballistics:
    http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
     
  47. TexDanm

    TexDanm Shadow Dancer
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    OK, the FACTS about bullets and their ability to do damage and take out a living target is simply how 5 or 6 factors come together and function. The factors are the speed of the bullet, the weight of the bullet, the diameter of the bullet, how well the bullet is designed to impart that energy to its target and the placement of the bullet in the body.

    Whether you want to call it retained energy or transmitted energy the point is that all that counts is the energy that is imparted to the body of your target. It is transmitted by the bullet and retained by the body.

    The speed of the bullet only matters if that energy is totally transmitted into the target. A 50 BMG round doesn't place much of its energy into the human target because it goes right through it and then just keeps on going carrying that energy with it.

    The ability of a bullet to impart its energy into the target is as much a function of the bullet design as it is any inherent speed. When the 7mm Magnum first came out I personally saw a bullet splatter on the surface of a deer. It knocked it down but it bounced right back up and a second shot dropped it. The first round had hit a shoulder bone just under the skin and had just failed. This was a problem that they fixed with partitioned bullets that would only mushroom so far and then stop expanding. In that particular case, you were actually better off with a longer shot than a too close shot. Also with FMJ bullets you often waste most of the energy by the bullet going straight through rather than dumping the total energy load into the target.

    The other factor in how well a bullet performs and stops a target has to do with the effect of something traveling above the speed of sound encounters fluids. Hydro-shock makes the damage path much larger. A good example of this is the debate about which is the best stopper, a 45 ACP or a 357 mag. On one hand, the large heavy bullet of the 45ACP is a great bullet and being slower it almost always offers near 100% energy transfer. It IS a good stopper. The 357 mag is throwing a lighter bullet a lot faster. When you only take into consideration the energy from speed and weight they are much the same.

    Take a couple of gallon bleach bottles and fill them up with water, Karo syrup and red food coloring and set them in front of a piece of plywood. Shoot one with the 45ACP and the other with a 357 Mag. The one shot with the 45ACP has a hole in front and back and the water pours out the holes. Shoot the other bottle with the 357 mags and it freaking EXPLODES throwing the water and stuff all over the place covering the piece of plywood behind it with a graphic demonstration of hydro- shock.

    In the end, they are both good stoppers they just do it differently. One with weight and size and the other with speed. Each requires a different bullet design. A 45 ACP does well with FMJ or round nose lead bullets and doesn't benefit much from hollow points. a 357 mag needs soft points and hollow points or their speed will be wasted by passing all the way through My favorite defense load in 357 is a 125 gr half jacketed hollow point that I push to near 1800 FPS. I also have some 158-grain FMJ military stuff that will shoot all the way through a car. Each has a place.

    Stopping power is a complicated subject that has so many parts. The one that I have not mentioned that may be one of the biggest factors in humans is the state of mind and attitude. Many years ago a cop in Houston emptied a 15 round magazine out of a Browning high-power into a criminal and was working on the second magazine before he finally stopped the guy. At first, there was a lot of stories about the cop using excessive force. Then it happened again and this time it was with a 12 gauge shotgun. It turned out that a "new" drug made some people REALLY hard to stop. PCP was a real problem for a few years.

    On the flipside, it is not uncommon for a person to be shot with a low powered round and receive a non-threatening wound and they still die before they can be taken to the hospital. Shock doesn't have to be caused by a REAL injury as much as what you THINK it is.
     
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  48. lalakai

    lalakai Well-Known Member
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    i love debates. Warmed up some scalloped potatoes and ham, some music in my headphones......enjoying it.

    talking about ballistics, penetration, damage path, transmitted versus retained energy........each is based on very unique conditions that change drastically depending on velocity, weight and type of projectile, and the purpose you are using it for. When we were testing our rounds in gel blocks I came across these tests regarding pistols http://emptormaven.com/img/Pistol_Round_Terminal_Ballistics.jpg
    It's interesting to see the damage path from the much slower .45 as compared to the 9mm or the .357 sig, both having higher velocity than the .45. The damage path results from a good balance of velocity and projectile, that aren't consistent between the different calibers. This chart shows a similar testing done with rifles https://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/559/558367/terminal_ballistics.png
    and you can track the damage path that is based not just on velocity but also projectile type. Even a high velocity round won't do as much damage if the projectile can't transmit that energy to the target (expanding, shredding, fragmenting, too soon or too late).

    I definitely agree, a good rule of thumb is the more velocity there is, the more damage potential, but there are so many variables that it's hard to come up with a "golden rule" regarding velocity, projectile, and damage.

    BUT!!! There is one golden rule that you must never break: never ever use reloads for personal defense. You may be able to come up with a great round that does a tremendous job in that aspect, but the courts will paint you as a gun nut that sits in their basement cooking up ways to kill people. And as careful as I am, I'm not sure my QC is better than one of the main ammo manufactors.
     
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  49. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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  50. poltiregist

    poltiregist Expert Member
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    Your spot on . Facts presented better than I could .
     
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